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Old 2011-05-21, 19:00   Link #1081
UsagiTenpura
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Concerning the red, I've been thinking of something.
One of the red that always was more or less troublesome to us is the arc 6 red about there being 17 "humans" on the island.

Because of the multi-layer structure of the story, a lower level story has to take into account higher level information, however the same isn't true of a higher level.

It is to Beatrice's disadvantage after all to use reds that destroys the validity of her fantasy scenes, which still needs not to contradict the "mystery story" layer of Rokkenjima that is atop of it.

I wouldn't be certain it is always the case, but if Beatrice can make reds about her fantasy story that doesn't contradict directly the mystery layer, it does make sense to me to consider Shannon and Kanon "humans". As per the view of the fantasy story they are considered "human side"

I'm well aware it could be argued that Shannon and Kanon are furniture even within that story, but "human" in 17 humans is just a counter if I remember well.

There's probably other reds that would make more sense if seen that way.

Edit : Realizing this could be clearer. I'm basically trying to say that red having an "arbitrary subjective definition" might not be so true, we just need to figure out to which layer of reality it's applied and what it exactly means for higher layers. Most likely any reds used by Beatrice about the gameboard would apply to her fantasy story and needs to be translated to the mystery story. All that really happened is that we suspended disbelief toward the mystery level and not the fantasy level, but ultimately both are fiction to us. In that sense it could've been deduced long ago, I believe, that no matter who is the culprit/Beato, s/he can declare themselves as dead in red.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-05-21 at 19:19.
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Old 2011-05-21, 19:20   Link #1082
Renall
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Assuming they are meant to be human beings in the stories (a big assumption, let alone how many human beings they're supposed to be), it's entirely accurate to say that they are humans. In the stories.

Of course, it's possible for a character to be introduced who isn't intended to be a human: That's pretty much Beatrice and all the Stakes and demons and what have you. If we boiled it down to a strictly literary level we couldn't say there are only 18 characters on Rokkenjima in ep3, as we would be forced to include Virgilia and Beatrice (who appeared on the island), the Stakes, and Eva-Beatrice (or maybe we wouldn't!). They are after all characters in the story, and in that sense equal in presence to any others, but they're implicitly not "humans" or "persons" because... the author says so. It's strictly definitional, and definitions apply insofar as the author says they do. It's just up to us how much we're willing to accept that.

Yet another reason why Battler could have pretty much worked over anyone he wanted once he actually figured this out, but I guess he was too nice (or incompetent).
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Old 2011-05-21, 19:32   Link #1083
UsagiTenpura
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Well I do think the human/non-human difference is rather clear in the story.

... For a normal story I'd say that it's not any different then specifying the gender of a character within the narrative, but alas that really doesn't work in Umineko.

Still it is a given that definitions only apply as far as the author says they do. That's probably why this wouldn't be the first story that spawns so much debates about moral ideals or the definition of words rather then ones concerning the actual story.

Edit: There is actually maybe a simpler way to make all of this works.
The gameboard, at least orriginally, was a fantasy story built on a mystery setting.
So for instance Hideyoshi lying about Shannon's corpse in arc 1 would only be a mystery working "he lied about it, that simple" but the "heart of the story" is a fantasy story. "According to that fantasy story Shannon was dead and her corpse was there so he acted that way".
As the fantasy side wins, the mystery workings appears the same as fantasy to the readers, and thus makes the story an equivalent to a full fantasy. This is not what Beato wants.
As the mystery side wins, in order to explain the workings a mystery story is being written over the fantasy story. This is not what Beato wants.
For arcs such as arc 5 it's sorta different. Even tho there doesn't seem to be much of a fantasy story left, the use of red would remain the same that it concerns fantasy or mystery. It would concern the story/narrative and not the workings behind it.

That way the analogy of the two sides of a coin having to match each other makes a lot more sense to me. You normally shouldn't have two sides of a coin competing for dominance, and a coin cannot exist without two sides to begin with.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-05-21 at 21:37.
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Old 2011-05-23, 03:13   Link #1084
Keriaku
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Well I do think the human/non-human difference is rather clear in the story.

... For a normal story I'd say that it's not any different then specifying the gender of a character within the narrative, but alas that really doesn't work in Umineko.

Still it is a given that definitions only apply as far as the author says they do. That's probably why this wouldn't be the first story that spawns so much debates about moral ideals or the definition of words rather then ones concerning the actual story.

Edit: There is actually maybe a simpler way to make all of this works.
The gameboard, at least orriginally, was a fantasy story built on a mystery setting.
So for instance Hideyoshi lying about Shannon's corpse in arc 1 would only be a mystery working "he lied about it, that simple" but the "heart of the story" is a fantasy story. "According to that fantasy story Shannon was dead and her corpse was there so he acted that way".
As the fantasy side wins, the mystery workings appears the same as fantasy to the readers, and thus makes the story an equivalent to a full fantasy. This is not what Beato wants.
As the mystery side wins, in order to explain the workings a mystery story is being written over the fantasy story. This is not what Beato wants.
For arcs such as arc 5 it's sorta different. Even tho there doesn't seem to be much of a fantasy story left, the use of red would remain the same that it concerns fantasy or mystery. It would concern the story/narrative and not the workings behind it.

That way the analogy of the two sides of a coin having to match each other makes a lot more sense to me. You normally shouldn't have two sides of a coin competing for dominance, and a coin cannot exist without two sides to begin with.
This is a really interesting idea about Beatrice's gameboard. I'd say that I can agree with your depiction of the game and how it works as a whole.

I'm looking forward to applying this perspective when I eventually reread through the series.
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Old 2011-05-23, 23:48   Link #1085
UsagiTenpura
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Thanks a lot!.
I've came to realize there's plenty of examples of that in the serie. The biggest of which being the epitaph. The epitaph murder is the "story side" of it and the epitaph puzzle is the "reasoning side" of it. Both are unrelated entirely to each other. You don't need to solve the epitaph puzzle to understand the story of the epitaph murder, and you don't need to understand the story of the epitaph murder to solve the epitaph puzzle.

Two sides to one coin, not in opposition, both made to be enjoyed, and yet completely unconnected.
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Old 2011-05-24, 00:29   Link #1086
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I wouldn't say they're completely unconnected, but they can be enjoyed independently, is the thing.
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Old 2011-05-26, 11:50   Link #1087
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Well they are both based on the same thing but that's pretty much it.
But you said the central point why I think this theory is right. Enjoyment.
Beatrice/Ryuukishi wanted us to have fun reading Umineko's story and to have fun trying to solve the riddles, two seperate things.

It allows for most reds that were hard to make sense out of to actually make sense now, easily. Most murders have also have very easy solutions. I believe this is the key arc 6 was supposed to make us get, that solves each and every murder, that now, with the key, you can go back and open all "locks". Shkanon makes so much more sense that way to me too.

Also it even makes total sense out of what Ryuukishi said after arc 5, that someone who solves the epitaph could understand what happened in the rest of the twilights of arc 5.
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Old 2011-06-07, 02:02   Link #1088
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I just realize something, Ange cannot be on the island at all in the last game. She would be 18th Human, on the island and just like Erika. Because there can only be 17 humans existing on this island. The Red never stated a difference in being alive, or dead. So I say there might be another person with two personalities like ShKannon.
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Old 2011-06-07, 03:00   Link #1089
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I just realize something, Ange cannot be on the island at all in the last game. She would be 18th Human, on the island and just like Erika. Because there can only be 17 humans existing on this island. The Red never stated a difference in being alive, or dead. So I say there might be another person with two personalities like ShKannon.
Well, duh. Battler said in the very beginning that this was a miracle, to try to explain to Ange what she lost the most because of the incident. If going by Bern's quotes, "there is no such thing as a miracle".
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Old 2011-06-07, 13:12   Link #1090
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There's way bigger problems with that kakera anyway. Kinzo being alive, Shannon and Kanon and Beatrice all being separate people...Ange's more like the 20th person.
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Old 2011-07-12, 14:12   Link #1091
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To clarify something, each of the people who die in the twilights are confirmed dead right?
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Old 2011-07-15, 13:12   Link #1092
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They're confirmed dead usually, not in all cases. I'm assuming you mean throughout the various games. The trick is that if they are confirmed dead in red or by visual inspection, it's after they had been faking and were actually killed.

Edit: Oh also, most later twilights have actual dead people. Sometimes they are actually killed rather than playing dead. But some other times they are still playing dead. But basically it eventually degenerates into faking for their own purposes, even if they had orders to do so. (i.e. they'll get up and kill other people) to just being killed outright; no fakery.

Last edited by Kylon99; 2011-07-15 at 13:25.
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Old 2011-07-23, 17:00   Link #1093
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I don't understand Kumawasa's riddle? Is it a language related?
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Old 2011-07-23, 18:06   Link #1094
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I don't understand Kumawasa's riddle? Is it a language related?
Do you mean the "saba-ra" one? If you read the question very carefully and pay close attention to the spelling of the words then you should be able to catch the answer.
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Old 2011-08-23, 05:03   Link #1095
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Some things are completely in your face since the beginning and I somewhat feel what Ryukishi feels that people hasnt noticed this. Anyway I've told UsagiTenpura this some months ago and she was shocked what I told her and alot made sense to her anyway. Just to tell you all there is 2 people on the island with split personalities. They act out them personalities when together and sometimes around others. But to destroy this illusion/fantasy to everyone who reads this its the fact that Shanon and Kanon are indeed furniture. Like a feeling and emotion. To simply put Jessica = Shanon and George = Kanon. The clues are in episode 1 to proove this. For example Battler see's jessica's breast and he is interested right? So why is it that Jessica hits Battler when he is interested in Shanons breast? George loves Shanon right? Then why does Eva threatens "Jessica herself"? Why u think Eva is so against this? Because they are cousins! Here is the Illusion KanonxJessica and GeorgexShanon kill the Kanon and Shanon and ur left with JessicaxGeorge. Anyway im not gonna use this name anymore I'm more known as the WitchOfRiddles in some irc/forums
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Old 2011-08-23, 11:49   Link #1096
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Some things are completely in your face since the beginning and I somewhat feel what Ryukishi feels that people hasnt noticed this. Anyway I've told UsagiTenpura this some months ago and she was shocked what I told her and alot made sense to her anyway. Just to tell you all there is 2 people on the island with split personalities. They act out them personalities when together and sometimes around others. But to destroy this illusion/fantasy to everyone who reads this its the fact that Shanon and Kanon are indeed furniture. Like a feeling and emotion. To simply put Jessica = Shanon and George = Kanon. The clues are in episode 1 to proove this. For example Battler see's jessica's breast and he is interested right? So why is it that Jessica hits Battler when he is interested in Shanons breast? George loves Shanon right? Then why does Eva threatens "Jessica herself"? Why u think Eva is so against this? Because they are cousins! Here is the Illusion KanonxJessica and GeorgexShanon kill the Kanon and Shanon and ur left with JessicaxGeorge. Anyway im not gonna use this name anymore I'm more known as the WitchOfRiddles in some irc/forums
The first time I heard something like that. To be honest, I thought nearly the same way but then new ideas came to my mind and since it's proven that yasu IS indeed shkannon(plus the mainstory) I erased this idea from my mind. Though I guess it all make more sense if its actually yasu and not george or jessi.
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Old 2011-08-23, 12:02   Link #1097
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hi guys i just finished episode 7 and started 8.
so shannon , kannon and beatrice are the same person... HOW????
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Old 2011-08-23, 12:22   Link #1098
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Shin Kyo, I have no idea what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting that Jessica and George are dating and Shannon and Kanon are imaginary?

Quote:
hi guys i just finished episode 7 and started 8.
so shannon , kannon and beatrice are the same person... HOW????
They're all one person pretending to be three people. Yasu is normally Shannon, then started pretending to be Kanon, dressing up as him and going back and forth with somehow no one noticing, or their being in on it (Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo definitely know their secret). Beatrice is obviously another costume, one she doesn't have to use as much.

Every scene that has Shannon and Kanon in the same room is an illusion, just like the magical powers and supernatural events. Notice that Battler never does meet them at the same time.
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Old 2011-08-23, 12:34   Link #1099
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so shannon , kannon and beatrice are the same person... HOW????
You wish there was a clear and good explanation for that, but there isn't.

There are theories, like the one that Aura explained. Another theory is that there's never been any servant Kanon working on the real Rokkenjima and his existence as a servant who worked there for 3 years is only true in Yasu's mind, in the first two stories she wrote and the forgeries. So in other words Kanon would be just a fictional character and so would Beatrice in a sense.

Quote:
Notice that Battler never does meet them at the same time.
Not whenever he's the confirmed detective at least...
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Old 2011-08-23, 12:39   Link #1100
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okay thanks for answering.
does shannon love george or battler???why does shannon commit the murderers?
Shannon definitely is the daughter of kuwadorian beatrice right?.
if this question are answered in episode 8 than don't tell me. i only started reading it
today.
sorry for so many questions lol im just realy confused
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