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Old 2011-01-02, 16:46   Link #121
Klashikari
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For the last time: there is -nothing- that remotely confirms or even "suggest" that Battler was an accomplice. Heck, there is nothing that actually confirms Episode 7 "theory" to boot.

Bern's little game was a mere mystery challenge addressed towards Battler and Beato. It has nothing to do with Beato's games, and its rules are way too conflicting with everything we had seen so far.

However, there are indeed very troubling points such like Ange not willing to open the cat box, the circumstances behind Ikuko finding Touya and so forth.
But right now, I really fail to see what is that trend. I really think a sizable amount of people are catching spoilers in the very wrong way (just like the ridiculous "Bern cat, lambda cake" stuff.
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Old 2011-01-02, 17:06   Link #122
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I see him more as someone who knew about his parents plans but couldn't do anything to stop it

the best he could do was to try and save Yasu

and he failed that too

he's a tragic character
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Old 2011-01-02, 18:03   Link #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
That was certainly not even mentioned in Episode 8. I have no idea where this spoiler is from, but unless I really missed a giant flag, there wasn't even the slightest indication of this.

It's one of guesswork some Japanese fans (includes me) begin after having read EP8.
Of course, the idea 'Battler is the culprit' spoiles large part of Umineko's story.
However, please recall the article in which Ryukishi07 talked about 後期クイーン的問題 (I don't know how it is translated in English).
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Old 2011-01-02, 18:19   Link #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormeur View Post
It's one of guesswork some Japanese fans (includes me) begin after having read EP8.
Of course, the idea 'Battler is the culprit' spoiles large part of Umineko's story.
However, please recall the article in which Ryukishi07 talked about 後期クイーン的問題 (I don't know how it is translated in English).
"Last part queen problem" is what we call it, I believe.
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Old 2011-01-02, 18:28   Link #125
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All past truths are overshadowed by the future ones basically, right?
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Old 2011-01-03, 01:24   Link #126
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Finally finished reading ep8. I must confess that my interest in the series has dwindled since last year, and I'm not sure what was the main cause of it. Perhaps I was satisfied with some of the theories (and the fact that they get reaffirmed again and again), didn't want to keep up/participate with the load of theories on here/2ch/official board, that eventually lead to me to stop thinking about it much since Ep6. Or maybe it's the anime, but I'm not going to jab at that here That's not to say that the series got boring, it's something I can't really put into words.

Without more mumbling, my thoughts on ep8:
Spoiler for Obviously ep8 itself:


Spoiler for Top 5 scenes of Ep8:


Spoiler for after thoughts on the series as a whole:


Spoiler for closing remark:
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Last edited by Rias; 2011-01-03 at 02:04.
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Old 2011-01-03, 03:22   Link #127
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If this early spoilers are correct then I wasn't too far off. Looks like Ryukishi was right, you can solve this case before chiru.

Here's the links to my theory post ep3 and pre ep4

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...54#post2594054
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...70#post2609670
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Old 2011-01-03, 04:03   Link #128
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My thoughts on Episode 8:

In short, I really liked it, despite not straightforwardly answering the mystery.

Of course, I'm a bit let down that the mystery wasn't explained more in detail, esspecially the motive (which, no matter how I look at it, is terrible.). I'd like a more concrete end, but regardless, it's not like he completly left us in the dark, as you can more or less figure it out on your own or add your own spin to it. While I still feel a bit let down by it, there are much worse ways it could have ended (the red truth was all a lie, Ange dreamed everything).

For a mystery, that might be a subpar ending, but Umineko is multi-genred, I would say. It had a lot going on in it, a lot more then just 'mystery'. And I feel that, it addressing these sections are what make me really love the ending, despite the slight let down on the mystery part.

I felt so many emotions throughout reading the whole episode. When you feel emotions while reading a story, that generally means the story is well written (you have an attachment to the characters, and it's written well.). Throughout all of Episode 8 (and the series in general), Ryukishi managed to make you feel for something, despite how you felt. For example, when Lambda was killed, I felt that Battler and Ange would get out of it for sure, but I still felt tension through the scene. Then, despite being immediatdly after, when Ange was about to be killed, I still felt tense on that scene also.

The pacing was a bit strange, but not nearly enough to ruin the story for me.

So basically, from a mystery aspect, the ending might not be very good, but from a different aspect, I enjoyed the ending. If it weren't for Episode 7, specifically, Will 'tearing the illusion from fiction', then I might not have been able to enjoy this episode as much certainly. But with that, it feels like we got enough answers to justify the ending of Episode 8.
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Old 2011-01-03, 08:26   Link #129
Klashikari
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There are times I wish instant translation was humanly possible, as I'm starting being ticked off by people around me pulling ridiculous statements based on spoilers alone.

If any VN readers see a mistake in the points and interpretations made, please correct me ASAP:

Spoiler for misconceptions:


That is basically the same silly situation we had with Episode 7: people mistaking what happened with Eva, people having a very weird interpretation of Yasu's despair etc.
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Old 2011-01-03, 08:42   Link #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
There are times I wish instant translation was humanly possible, as I'm starting being ticked off by people around me pulling ridiculous statements based on spoilers alone.

If any VN readers see a mistake in the points and interpretations made, please correct me ASAP:

Spoiler for misconceptions:


That is basically the same silly situation we had with Episode 7: people mistaking what happened with Eva, people having a very weird interpretation of Yasu's despair etc.
I think this has mostly to do with the rather mistaken insinuation that the Kyrie-Rudolph Murder Solution is the one true solution to the murders, despite the fact that:

1. The presented evidence supporting this are merely circumstantial.
2. No evidence exists to prove beyond reasonable doubt (the primary consideration for conviction in a criminal trial) that they are the ones who did it.
3. It has been mentioned a few times that this interpretation is fitting and convenient with the data at hand, but not because it is know to be THE only explanation.

It becomes a process of induction rather than deduction, where events are interpreted precisely towards supporting the preconceived conclusion, rather than interpreting events to derive a possible conclusion. The former is exactly the opposite methodology of an investigation.
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Old 2011-01-03, 08:52   Link #131
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I think you're mixing a bit of your own interpretation into those corrections: we don't know exactly in what sense the metaworld is real or isn't real. But I'll agree Bern = cat and Lambda = cake is a bit ridiculous, as are "metaworld is only in X's head" theories.

We also don't know in what sense the events of the island are real. I personally am quite convinced by your points, but there are good claims to the contrary:
* Why show it in EP8? What purpose does the game serve? In which way is it closure?
* I had the feeling Battler and Beato challenged it merely because they didn't want anyone to open the catbox, and don't think it's important (we already know Battler is quite delusional).
* About Virgilia, I think they were talking about two different definitions of culprit.

You can argue (and maybe even prove) these arguments are wrong, but your conclusions won't be something that is immediately derived from reading EP8. They would be the result of complex reasoning and examination of evidence.
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Old 2011-01-03, 08:58   Link #132
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In a sense, I cannot define what is exactly the metaworld.

However, I can be certain that it is not in Touya's head at all. Quite the contrary: there are enough evidences showing that the metaworld is something unrelated to the "storytelling" done by Hachijou Touya.
Of course, we all had naturally concluded that the metaworld has -no impact- towards the events on Rokkenjima of the real world. However, they are part of the story telling for the franchise, but certainly not a metafiction as I explained earlier.

As for the games, there are 2 of them in Episode 8:
-Bern's game: as I already explained, this game served as some entertainment for Battler and Beato, but it was just a guise so Ange would actually question even more the game Battler has woven for her.
-Battler's game: a "journey" to show to Ange that the truth isn't what it matters the most in her case.

Furthermore, if you read every reactions Battler and Beato had while facing this game (along with the hints), it was pure curiosity and amusement there. It didn't have any sense of gravity, nor any sense of urgency, except at the start when they were worried about Ange, but relaxed immediately after setting terms and conditions with Bern (along with a nanoha's style friendship).
For all it takes, it really goes against their stance of "sealing the catbox" assuming Bern's game was the truth.

Even if Virgilia used a different definition of "culprit" than Bernkastel, the second part of the red goes against Bern's definition: Battler didn't kill anyone.
If he didn't, he cannot be considered as a culprit with Bernkastel definition. However, he did lie once with the purple (via Shannon's purple).
Ergo, there is no way for this tale to be applicable with the rest of Beato's game.


Except for Battler's status as the culprit being disproved with the franchise as a whole, the rest is pretty much from Episode 8 alone.
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Old 2011-01-03, 09:03   Link #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
* Why show it in EP8? What purpose does the game serve? In which way is it closure?.
As far as I can see, the entire purpose of ep8 was:
Spoiler:

Last edited by Circular Logic; 2011-01-03 at 09:04. Reason: re red truth
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Old 2011-01-03, 09:07   Link #134
Klashikari
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The point of Episode 8 was actually how you can have your own truth, regardless how absolute "the" truth is.
Which can be assumed as the definition of the golden truth (considering what happened with Ange against Bern).
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Old 2011-01-03, 09:10   Link #135
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The point of Episode 8 was actually how you can have your own truth, regardless how absolute "the" truth is.
Which is basically the definition of the golden truth.
Which is of course, what we're doing right now.

It would be very fitting for ryukishi to leave several theories as possible, making the entire series one big catbox.
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Old 2011-01-03, 09:10   Link #136
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Hmm. I relent, then. I skimmed parts of the episode, so I can't present evidence to the contrary. Might very well be poor reading on my part.
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Old 2011-01-03, 09:14   Link #137
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Circular Logic View Post
It would be very fitting for ryukishi to leave several theories as possible, making the entire series one big catbox.
That's actually the reason why he made the ending of that kind, especially if we consider a meta existence of his own, through Hachijou Ikuko (and moreso with the Golden Land war, and every goats running around).

In fact, every single "mystery" of Umineko turned into a catbox: the truth, yasu, Lion's gender etc.

He obviously has the means and possibility to burst open the catbox, but for the better or for the worse decided not to.
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Old 2011-01-03, 09:16   Link #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Circular Logic View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler for Red Truth:
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Old 2011-01-03, 09:16   Link #139
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Sorry if I'm wrong, but isn't Lion's gender almost confirmed to be female? After all Lion was the same person as Yasu, and Yasu was definitely stated to be of the opposite gender of Battler. At the worst I'd think it's an infertile female, but probably not hermaphrodite/male.
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Old 2011-01-03, 09:20   Link #140
Circular Logic
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Originally Posted by TheForsaken View Post
Spoiler for Red Truth:
Doesn't that undermine the very existence of the red truth?

After all, ryukishi said several times that red truth only is true if you believe in its existence. There's no way to prove that the red is actually true. It's one of those devil's proof thingamabobs.
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