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Old 2012-02-03, 08:26   Link #1421
Jan-Poo
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Well "magic" in my opinion is: "something you believe in", "something you can make others believe in", "something many people believe in" and all of that without any solid proof to back it. So "magic" and "gold truth" are pretty much the same thing, with the only difference that the "gold truth" is a tool you can use in the contest of an Umineko game. That's the same difference between "hypothesis" and "blue truth".
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Old 2012-02-03, 10:35   Link #1422
immblueversion
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well "magic" in my opinion is: "something you believe in", "something you can make others believe in", "something many people believe in" and all of that without any solid proof to back it. So "magic" and "gold truth" are pretty much the same thing, with the only difference that the "gold truth" is a tool you can use in the contest of an Umineko game. That's the same difference between "hypothesis" and "blue truth".
So it goes like this:

Truth = Red
Hypothesis = Blue
Magic = Gold

They don't need backing. They only need to be. But maybe the problem about it being considered an "ass-pull" is that it didn't receive any proper explanation before it was used, demonstrating what it was at the time; the only explanation it got was after it was used, and even then, it was fairly vague (sometimes inferior to the red, sometimes superior, all depending on how it's used).
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Old 2012-02-03, 23:37   Link #1423
SeagullCrazy
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Gold truth isn't a deus ex machina (although it acts like one). It's exactly what Jan said, "magic" and "gold truth" mean the exact same thing.

And as Etrien said, gold truth is the personal belief you hold, even when the red truth goes against you. It's the accepted truth of what a group believes even when what happened was actually different (the existence of Kinzo in EP4 for example).

This is also why there is no concrete definition of what the gold truth is. Gold truth is completely subjective, thus the definition of gold truth is also up for endless interpretation.

So while it may have seemed like a deus ex machina with the gold truth in EP5, that really wasn't it. Gold can either hold the power of red or blue (that is, right or possibly right), but it's impossible for anyone to tell just how much power it holds. It's a cat-box. If the truth can't really be known, then it's better to believe in something you WANT to believe in, right? That's what the gold truth is, and what the truth of Umineko ultimately ends up being.

It's funny that I comment on this now, because I actually joined this site two years ago so that I could post my thoughts on the gold truth, which I did in my very first post. And my theory has held up even until today.
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Old 2012-02-04, 02:45   Link #1424
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Another reason Gold Text wasn't an asspull and was actually something that should've been expected comes from analzying the colors and powers of the witches. This is from my signature link but it bears a copy and paste:

This theory is an observation of the colors Ryukishi uses as a metaphor in Umineko. In short:

Red - Lambdadelta - Certainty - Red Text
Blue - Bernkastel - Miracles - Blue Text
Gold - Beatrice - Endless/Limitless - Gold Text
Black/White - Featherine - Objective Observation - Black/White Text
*Text is black in the manga.

Here are more observed patterns:
Red - Siesta 45 - Furfur - Red guy/girl in EP7 portrait
Blue - Siesta 410 - Zepar - Blue guy in EP7 portrait
Gold - Siesta 00 - Furfur - Red guy/girl's hair in EP7 portrait
Black - Siesta 556 - Zepar - Blue guy's hair in EP7 portrait


Basically as soon as we saw a Red and Blue text that conformed to LD and Bernkastel's powers, we should've expected a Gold text that conformed to Beatrice's powers. Featherine was a bonus where we didn't realize the Black Text could have power too. 8) But we should've expected that from the colors used.

(Red guy/girl is Lion and Blue Guy is Will. That Umineko Color Theory pre-dates EP7.)
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Old 2012-02-04, 02:47   Link #1425
immblueversion
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Another reason Gold Text wasn't an asspull and was actually something that should've been expected comes from analzying the colors and powers of the witches. This is from my signature link but it bears a copy and paste:

This theory is an observation of the colors Ryukishi uses as a metaphor in Umineko. In short:

Red - Lambdadelta - Certainty - Red Text
Blue - Bernkastel - Miracles - Blue Text
Gold - Beatrice - Endless/Limitless - Gold Text
Black/White - Featherine - Objective Observation - Black/White Text
*Text is black in the manga.

Here are more observed patterns:
Red - Siesta 45 - Furfur - Red guy/girl in EP7 portrait
Blue - Siesta 410 - Zepar - Blue guy in EP7 portrait
Gold - Siesta 00 - Furfur - Red guy/girl's hair in EP7 portrait
Black - Siesta 556 - Zepar - Blue guy's hair in EP7 portrait


Basically as soon as we saw a Red and Blue text that conformed to LD and Bernkastel's powers, we should've expected a Gold text that conformed to Beatrice's powers. Featherine was a bonus where we didn't realize the Black Text could have power too. 8) But we should've expected that from the colors used.

(Red guy/girl is Lion and Blue Guy is Will. That Umineko Color Theory pre-dates EP7.)
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Old 2012-02-04, 04:55   Link #1426
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well "magic" in my opinion is: "something you believe in", "something you can make others believe in", "something many people believe in" and all of that without any solid proof to back it. So "magic" and "gold truth" are pretty much the same thing, with the only difference that the "gold truth" is a tool you can use in the contest of an Umineko game. That's the same difference between "hypothesis" and "blue truth".
To me they're similar, but on a slightly different scale. Magic, to me, is the dressing or interpretation to a situation. (More specifically, you could call it an interpretation that was intentionally created.) And while that seems the same as a personal truth, I'd make the argument that it doesn't have to be.

For example, when teaching, I sometimes joking refer to the hardest question or assignment as "the Last Boss". By doing so, I've cast a magic spell on my class to transform a mundane question into something that can be viewed as a challenging, yet surmountable opponent! But the important thing is that this is only a mutually agreed upon "dressing" to the situation; neither I nor the students honestly believe that any transformation has occurred, but we can willfully allow ourselves to see this new perspective. So it's magic, but I wouldn't think it would work as a Golden Truth, because it doesn't exist at the level of truth for us.

Golden Truth, I feel, is a form of "magic" that is so genuine to the individual, that simply from their own conviction, it holds a level of truth equivalent to absolute evidence (Red). Such as, "I know Battler is still alive somewhere...!", or "I know that aliens exist!", or "I know that none of the 18 committed murder on Rokkenjima!" They may not be supported by concrete evidence, but the person absolutely believes it. So I guess it's a case of "All Golden Truth is Magic, but not all Magic is Golden Truth". Of course, when writing an observably fictional story, it's easy to weave Gold as it would basically be anything "absolutely decided" but not yet supported by objective evidence. So, even though it was written in Black, I'd consider Featherine's method of defeating Lambda to be viable for Gold: "Yeah, you basically die here. I don't know how yet, I haven't decided. But, you do." (And, accordingly, once the "how" is finalized, it would be viable for Red.)

But of course this is all just my own interpretation. I'm sure there are things I might be overlooking. I've not gone back through the episodes, because they're so darned long.

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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Red - Lambdadelta - Certainty - Red Text
Blue - Bernkastel - Miracles - Blue Text
Gold - Beatrice - Endless/Limitless - Gold Text
Black/White - Featherine - Objective Observation - Black/White Text
This was one of my observations, too. Well, everything quoted but the Black. I didn't consider that one. I really enjoyed those kinds of visual themes. I did also notice the Red->Blue->Gold->Black scheme for the Chiesters, but I didn't really consider it for Zepar, Furfur, Will and Lion, nor am I currently sure if there IS intended symbolism there... There was also the Red/Blue/Gold/Black scheme for the characters' eyes, which was one of the first things I noticed. (Which was also the easiest way to identify Will as an inquisitor from the initial promo pics.)

Edit:
I guess to specify, one of my earlier observations was:
Red Eyes = Demons, Furniture, Servants. IE, things that were "created" by Magic.
Blue Eyes = Witches. Those who "create". (Maria, Ange, and Beato's eyes always stood out to me for this reason. The fact that adaptations gave Battler blue eyes actually felt appropriate going by this.)
Gold Eyes = Inquisitors. Personified Rulesets. (I do believe Dlanor and Will are the only two Gold-Eyed characters, correct...?)
Black Eyes = Humans.

This all felt solid (assuming that you count Gaap, like Virgilia, as a witch) until Zepar and Furfur showed up. Not only do they have blue eyes, but it's a pretty unique hue. But, if you take them as a representation of the story's master witch, Yasu, then the blue can still work.

And of course, Bern, Lambda, and Featherine are exempt from this, but I "allowed" for that exception as a homage to Higurashi.

Last edited by Etrien; 2012-02-04 at 05:02. Reason: Clarification
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Old 2012-02-04, 08:06   Link #1427
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Etrien View Post

Golden Truth, I feel, is a form of "magic" that is so genuine to the individual, that simply from their own conviction, it holds a level of truth equivalent to absolute evidence (Red). Such as, "I know Battler is still alive somewhere...!", or "I know that aliens exist!", or "I know that none of the 18 committed murder on Rokkenjima!" They may not be supported by concrete evidence, but the person absolutely believes it.
Hmmm, I understand the distinction you are making but I don't agree with that.
In the first place I always thought that the corpse that has been frequently identified as Kinzo is actually a dummy of some sort and Battler at the time he became a sorcerer must have realized that. I always pointed out the fact that if Battler wanted could have said "Kinzo is dead" in gold but he rather chose a more convoluted sentence "I can show the corpse of Kinzo". My explanation for that is that the corpse of Kinzo has been "magic" since the very beginning, and this also fits with what Will says in EP7:

Quote:
`"First game, fourth twilight.`@` The old Head from the closed room study, confined in a scorching furnace."`\

`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......Let the man of illusions go to where he belongs."`\
He would have said "dust to dust" if there was a real corpse involved.

So in the end I think that absolutely believing in something isn't necessary for a gold truth. You can say "Santa exists" in gold even if you know he doesn't exist, you just need the will to believe.
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Old 2012-02-04, 09:34   Link #1428
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I've taken "Game 1, Twilight 4" to refer to Kinzo's disappearance from his study.

"Illusions to Illusions" refers to the fact that Natsuhi simply lied about him having been there.

And there was definitely a Kinzo corpse. That's the only corpse that Battler directly confirms was dead in that game.
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Old 2012-02-04, 10:03   Link #1429
Jan-Poo
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The questions in EP7 always refer to a murder case and a related room. This particular question mentions a "scorching furnace". This question refers to the boiler room.

And how can you say that it's definitely Kinzo's corpse? There is something that resemble Kinzo's corpse, but where it was said without a doubt that that "corpse" is Kinzo's corpse?
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Old 2012-02-04, 14:00   Link #1430
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post

And how can you say that it's definitely Kinzo's corpse? There is something that resemble Kinzo's corpse, but where it was said without a doubt that that "corpse" is Kinzo's corpse?
I think it's just a matter of Occam's Razor - Yasu very likely knows where the corpse is, there' no obstacle to it being used, and I'd say we've been given no MORE reason to believe it's a dummy, than that it is real. Even if, say, Natsuhi is an accomplice in some way, and strongly objects to disturbing Kinzo's remains, all Yasu has to do is lie to her about it instead of going through the extra hassle.

I'd also say that Will uses 'Illusions to Illusions' in several rooms that involved nothing but what, as far as we can tell, was plain ol' murder. I'm not saying he isn't making a distinction, just that he isn't following it very strictly with his words. :-/
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Old 2012-02-04, 15:00   Link #1431
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I'm pretty sure "Illusions to Illusions" means something close to "Battler did not understand the crime scene correctly" / "Somebody lied to Battler".

For example:

`"First game, first twilight.`@` Six corpses in the gardening shed."`\
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......The corpse that cannot return to earth returns to illusions."`\
A: Hideyoshi and Kanon lied about Shannon's corpse being present.
B: No Shannon corpse
both satisfied

`"First game, second twilight.`@` Two corpses are close together in a closed room protected by a chain."`\
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......A chain of illusions can only hold back illusions."`\
A: Genji and Kanon lied about the chain being set.
B: ???
A satisfied, B ???

`"First game, fourth twilight.`@` The old Head from the closed room study, confined in a scorching furnace."`\
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......Let the man of illusions go to where he belongs."`\
A: Natsuhi lied about Kinzo being in his room. Also, corpse was long-dead instead of recently killed. Cause of death had nothing to do with stake in forehead.
B: ??? (but there definitely was a real corpse)


`"First game, fifth twilight.`@` The last moments of the sacrificed boy with a stake in his chest."`@
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......The witch and stake of illusions can pierce naught but illusions."`@
A: Nanjo lied about Kanon's death.
B: No Kanon corpse
both satisfied

`"First game, sixth, seventh, and eighth twilights.`@` Three corpses lying in the closed room of the singing girl."`@
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......Illusions are the blind girl's song. Illusion of a closed room."`\
A: Maria lied about what happened.
B: ??? (any reason to believe these corpses are fake?)


`"Let us continue.`@` Second game, first twilight.`@` Six with their stomachs split in the closed room chapel."`@
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......The gold truth locks the lock of illusions."`\
A: Rosa and the others lied about the door being locked.
B: ???
A satisfied, ??? on B


`"Second game, second twilight.`@` The corpses of the two who are close are not close."`@
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......Illusions who have fulfilled their role do not leave a corpse."`\
A: (Shanon, Rosa, Genji lied about having been with Kinzo? Gohda lied about Kanon being with Jessica?)
B: No Kanon corpse
B satisfied, A possibly.

`"Second game, fourth, fifth, and sixth twilights.`@` In Natsuhi's closed room, none are left alive."`@
`"Earth to earth.`@` ......No one would dispute that a coffin is a closed room."`\
A: Battler understood the crime correctly.
B: All corpses real.
Both satisfied.


`"Second game, seventh and eighth twilights.`@` The two sliced to death by the red-eyed phantom."`@
`"Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions. `@/
`......No illusion can create a corpse."`\
A: Report of Kanon attacking in the servants' room was a lie. Bodies in courtyard were as they appeared.
B: False murder in servants' room. Real murders later.
Both satisfied.


`"Third game, first twilight.`@` Six corpses connected by the linked closed rooms."`@
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......In a closed room ring, the end and the beginning overlap."`\
A: Hideyoshi lied about Shannon being dead? Adults lied about the circle of closed rooms?
B: Shanon and Kanon weren't really dead.
A probably satisfied. B satisfied.

`"Third game, second twilight.`@` The corpses of mother and child lay together in the rose garden."`@
`"Earth to earth.`@` ......No falsehoods in their final moments as told."`\
Both satisfied.

`"Third game, fourth, fifth, and sixth twilights.`@` Three corpses lying in the mansion."`@
`"Earth to earth.`@` ......No falsehoods in their final moments as told."`\
Both satisfied.

`"Third game, seventh and eighth twilights.`@` The corpses of husband and wife lay exposed under the arbor."`@
`"Earth to earth.`@` ......The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade."`\
Both satisfied.

`"Fourth game, first twilight.`@` A massacring storm sweeps through the dining hall."`@
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......Tales woven by the gold truth return to illusions."`@
A: Gohda, Kumasawa, Krauss, Kyrie, Shannon, Kanon, Nanjo lied to cousins.
B: ???
A satisfied, B ???


`"Fourth game, second twilight.`@` The two young ones face their trials and pass away together."`@
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......Tales woven by the gold truth return to illusions."`\
A: Jessica lied to Battler on the phone.
B: ???
A satsified, B ???

`"Fourth game, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth twilights.`@` None of the runaways are left alive."`@
`"Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions.`@` ......Silent corpses, adorned by fiction."`\
A: Kyrie lied to Battler.
B: ???
A weak, B ???

`"Fourth game, ninth twilight.`@` And none shall be left alive."`@
`"Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions.`@` ......When fiction is shut up inside a cat box, it becomes truth
(Gohda, Kumasawa, Kinzo)
A: Battler understood the gardening shed correctly. Various lies about Kinzo for I-I?
B: Kinzo's fake corpse.
A weak, B satisfied.


The "II == lie about crime scene" explanation doesn't exactly hit the difference between II and IIEE (Why is E1T4 II and E2T78 IIEE?), but I'd say it does much better than "II == fake corpse".


And as for whether or not the body in the furnace was Kinzo's:

A variation on Occam's razor is "The value of a theory is the ratio of the facts it explains to the additional assumptions needed for it to explain those facts."

The "It was Kinzo's corpse" claim explains everything found with no additional assumptions.

The "It was somebody else's corpse" claim explains exactly the same things, but requires the additional assumptions of "Somebody managed to find another corpse with two six-toed feet of comparable size, and snuck it onto the island.", and explains nothing that the first didn't.
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Old 2012-02-04, 15:33   Link #1432
Toku
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
`"First game, sixth, seventh, and eighth twilights.`@` Three corpses lying in the closed room of the singing girl."`@
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......Illusions are the blind girl's song. Illusion of a closed room."`\
A: Maria lied about what happened.
B: ??? (any reason to believe these corpses are fake?)
This has always bothered me since I saw this part of EP7. Exactly what is the significance of Maria's singing here? Is it just because it lured Natsuhi & co. out of the study? Or is there something else? And "illusion of a closed room" probably means that this isn't a true closed room at all.

Quote:
`"Second game, seventh and eighth twilights.`@` The two sliced to death by the red-eyed phantom."`@
`"Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions. `@/
`......No illusion can create a corpse."`\
A: Report of Kanon attacking in the servants' room was a lie. Bodies in courtyard were as they appeared.
B: False murder in servants' room. Real murders later.
Both satisfied.
Gohda probably is not an accomplice. I think Piece!Yasuda actually showed up there, posing as Kanon, and pulled some kind of stunt, possibly/probably with the help of Genji.

Quote:
`"Third game, seventh and eighth twilights.`@` The corpses of husband and wife lay exposed under the arbor."`@
`"Earth to earth.`@` ......The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade."`\
Both satisfied.
What is this mutable blade? The sleeping pills? Who is the "obvious culprit"?

Quote:
`"Fourth game, second twilight.`@` The two young ones face their trials and pass away together."`@
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......Tales woven by the gold truth return to illusions."`\
A: Jessica lied to Battler on the phone.
B: ???
A satsified, B ???
This is another thing that confuses me. In EP5 as well, there are hints that Jessica might be an accomplice (the phone call with Battler at the beginning, and the fact that she "died" in the cousins' room). But would Jessica really do something like this? In the case of EP5, does she have that much of a grudge against Natsuhi? Everything I remember leads me to believe that she does not. Her personality makes me think that she would rather die. I don't really know, though.

Quote:
The "It was somebody else's corpse" claim explains exactly the same things, but requires the additional assumptions of "Somebody managed to find another corpse with two six-toed feet of comparable size, and snuck it onto the island.", and explains nothing that the first didn't.
We have no reason to believe that it's not Kinzo's corpse. I don't get why this would be doubted...
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Old 2012-02-04, 15:35   Link #1433
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
The "It was Kinzo's corpse" claim explains everything found with no additional assumptions.

The "It was somebody else's corpse" claim explains exactly the same things, but requires the additional assumptions of "Somebody managed to find another corpse with two six-toed feet of comparable size, and snuck it onto the island.", and explains nothing that the first didn't.
This is not quite true. If it really is Kinzo's corpse, then there are unanswered questions about why Natsuhi and/or Yasu kept a rotting corpse lying around in the mansion for two years. This is demonstrably a terrible idea for Natsuhi, and right after Kinzo's death, it's unlikely for Yasu to be thinking something like "I'll just stash this somewhere in case I need it later."

If it's another corpse, then it could have been acquired by Yasu right before the incident without causing any of those problems.
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Old 2012-02-04, 15:38   Link #1434
Toku
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
This is not quite true. If it really is Kinzo's corpse, then there are unanswered questions about why Natsuhi and/or Yasu kept a rotting corpse lying around in the mansion for two years. This is demonstrably a terrible idea for Natsuhi, and right after Kinzo's death, it's unlikely for Yasu to be thinking something like "I'll just stash this somewhere in case I need it later."

If it's another corpse, then it could have been acquired by Yasu right before the incident without causing any of those problems.
So Yasuda and the others acquired a corpse that could be burnt to look like Kinzo's, before the incident, in order to cover up his death. That makes a certain amount of sense.

However, all of the scenes (EP5 prologue, EP7 Yasuda's story) which lead us to believe that Kinzo died 2-ish years before the incident, seem to contain quite a large number of illusions. There's a lot of room for doubt, to be honest.
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Old 2012-02-04, 15:39   Link #1435
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In EP 5, Jessica may not have known it was targeted at Natsuhi. She was probably told it was a prank on Erika.
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Old 2012-02-04, 17:06   Link #1436
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
This is not quite true. If it really is Kinzo's corpse, then there are unanswered questions about why Natsuhi and/or Yasu kept a rotting corpse lying around in the mansion for two years. This is demonstrably a terrible idea for Natsuhi, and right after Kinzo's death, it's unlikely for Yasu to be thinking something like "I'll just stash this somewhere in case I need it later."

If it's another corpse, then it could have been acquired by Yasu right before the incident without causing any of those problems.
It's possible that Kinzo's corpse had been conveniently and respectfully kept hidden prior to the Rokkenjima incident.
They couldn't bury it since the plan was to declare that Kinzo had vanished mysteriously one day when Krauss could face Kinzo's disappearance and if the police were to come searching for him and find him buried there would be explanation to give. They couldn't even toss him in the ocean because he could end up on some beach... and if they were to tie him to a stone and again the police were to discover it, it would be murder. So my guess is they hid it, planning to toss him into the sea once they declared Kinzo's death.
Let's say Genji had taken care of it and hidden it in Kuwadorian. Shannon could have told him to retrieve it for... the 'mystery game'... maybe claiming she wanted to be honest with the siblings and tell them the truth.

Genji would buy it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
This has always bothered me since I saw this part of EP7. Exactly what is the significance of Maria's singing here? Is it just because it lured Natsuhi & co. out of the study? Or is there something else? And "illusion of a closed room" probably means that this isn't a true closed room at all.
I can't remember, it was checked if Kumasawa and Co were really dead? Let's pretend they faked. They're unaware of the bomb so they just lie there, pretending to be dead... and die short after due to the bomb.

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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
Gohda probably is not an accomplice. I think Piece!Yasuda actually showed up there, posing as Kanon, and pulled some kind of stunt, possibly/probably with the help of Genji.
Well, but you would have to explain why he lied about Shannon and Kanon being present at the same time...
It's easy to think he was an accomplice and didn't realize people around him were dying for real.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
What is this mutable blade? The sleeping pills? Who is the "obvious culprit"?
I've been wondering if mutable blade might be a reference to a betrayal. They trusted the killed who, in return, killed them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
This is another thing that confuses me. In EP5 as well, there are hints that Jessica might be an accomplice (the phone call with Battler at the beginning, and the fact that she "died" in the cousins' room). But would Jessica really do something like this? In the case of EP5, does she have that much of a grudge against Natsuhi? Everything I remember leads me to believe that she does not. Her personality makes me think that she would rather die. I don't really know, though.
I've always thought Jessica believed it was all a game and that they had been tricked. So she made another phonecall in which she was trying to follow the game and continue deceiving Battler and, once she was done, she was killed.

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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
We have no reason to believe that it's not Kinzo's corpse. I don't get why this would be doubted...
Well, the weak points of Kinzo's corpse being around are that his corpse should have deteriorated quite a lot considering all the time he'd been dead and that a deteriorating corpse stink in a rather horrible manner so it's not exactly a thing you can hid easily in a wardrobe. I've been told the smell can become so horrible it will even attach to who gets close to it and that it'll be hell to get rid of it.
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Old 2012-02-04, 17:31   Link #1437
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
Who is the "obvious culprit"?
Eva, i think. Because the only ones who were present at the time were Eva, Battler, Jessica, Nanjo and George i think. Krauss and Natsuhi were killed. Most common theory is that they were strangled while asleep by Eva. She is obvious, because EP3 seems like it makes Eva the culprit (which is, at least partly, true).
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Old 2012-02-04, 17:33   Link #1438
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It's possible that Kinzo's corpse had been conveniently and respectfully kept hidden prior to the Rokkenjima incident.
They couldn't bury it since the plan was to declare that Kinzo had vanished mysteriously one day when Krauss could face Kinzo's disappearance and if the police were to come searching for him and find him buried there would be explanation to give. They couldn't even toss him in the ocean because he could end up on some beach... and if they were to tie him to a stone and again the police were to discover it, it would be murder. So my guess is they hid it, planning to toss him into the sea once they declared Kinzo's death.
Let's say Genji had taken care of it and hidden it in Kuwadorian. Shannon could have told him to retrieve it for... the 'mystery game'... maybe claiming she wanted to be honest with the siblings and tell them the truth.

Genji would buy it.
This simply doesn't work, and the reason is because if they wanted to get rid of it, they could have easily incinerated it or something. In the first place, tossing a 2-year old corpse into the sea when they declare him dead, is far too risky.

Personally, I think the only question here is whether it actually has been 2 years since he died. If so, then it probably wasn't Kinzo's corpse, but rather someone with 6 toes whose corpse could be burnt to look like it could be Kinzo.

There actually are reasons to believe that Kinzo hasn't been dead for a full 2 years. First of all, the fact that in Lion's world, Kinzo isn't even dead yet in 1986. Second, the fact that Kinzo's death in Yasuda's story was rather suspicious.

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I can't remember, it was checked if Kumasawa and Co were really dead? Let's pretend they faked. They're unaware of the bomb so they just lie there, pretending to be dead... and die short after due to the bomb.
This doesn't really have anything to do with what I was saying...

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Well, but you would have to explain why he lied about Shannon and Kanon being present at the same time...
It's easy to think he was an accomplice and didn't realize people around him were dying for real.
Oh, that's true. It's been a while since I've seen that particular scene. Then again, from what I remember, Shannon left the room not long after Kanon showed up, and returned later with a spiderweb which "killed" Kanon. The timing of these things makes me think that the whole scene we were shown was a metaphor for what actually happened. After all, the scene we were shown is at least partially Fantasy, and that can't be denied.

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I've been wondering if mutable blade might be a reference to a betrayal. They trusted the killed who, in return, killed them.
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Old 2012-02-04, 18:14   Link #1439
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There actually are reasons to believe that Kinzo hasn't been dead for a full 2 years. First of all, the fact that in Lion's world, Kinzo isn't even dead yet in 1986. Second, the fact that Kinzo's death in Yasuda's story was rather suspicious.
Lion's Kinzo is explicitly described as living in Lion's world because he was much happier. His ill health, and his drinking problem, were caused by his trifecta of tragedies, but in Lion's world he spent 19 years with the grand/child of his most beloved person.
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Old 2012-02-04, 18:17   Link #1440
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
This simply doesn't work, and the reason is because if they wanted to get rid of it, they could have easily incinerated it or something. In the first place, tossing a 2-year old corpse into the sea when they declare him dead, is far too risky.
Well, I think when they hid Kinzo's corpse they didn't think they would hid it for such a long time. In the beginning he said half a year would suffice.

Also Natsuhi wanted so much to keep Kinzo's corpse in good shape she didn't even want an autopsy to be performed.

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"Can't you do something about that...? Even though he has passed away, Father's body is precious. Any damage to it would not be acceptable..."
So I think in the beginning Natsuhi would have liked to keep Kinzo's corpse hidden and then find it and give it a proper burial.

Likely she didn't plan to have the police finding it when she would declare he had disappeared but probably she wanted to 'find' him after the police would accept he died and the real status of his body could losely match with the status his body should have had he died later... and likely she also hoped to avoid an autopsy or have Nanjo perform it.

Though it's speculation.
In Rokkenjima Prime Natsuhi could have conveniently incinerated the corpse wile on the gameboard it was kept around.

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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
Personally, I think the only question here is whether it actually has been 2 years since he died. If so, then it probably wasn't Kinzo's corpse, but rather someone with 6 toes whose corpse could be burnt to look like it could be Kinzo.
I think it should be even harder to get a six toed body with a Kinzo's size.
6 toes are rare, and if I'm not wrong Kinzo is also rather tall.
Nanjo owns a clinic not an cemetery and generally dead people have a family who'd like to give proper burial to their relative.

If a Kinzo-like person is hard to find it's probably even more difficult to get a Kinzo-like's corpse and carry it on Rokkenjima.

If the corpse really wasn't Kinzo's I prefer to think it was a fake corpse... meaning those weren't real bones and skin but fake ones.

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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
There actually are reasons to believe that Kinzo hasn't been dead for a full 2 years. First of all, the fact that in Lion's world, Kinzo isn't even dead yet in 1986. Second, the fact that Kinzo's death in Yasuda's story was rather suspicious.
I've considered this and I personally think Kinzo's death in Yasu's story didn't go as she say, at least not exactly as she says but I tend to think he died at around that time, at least on Beato's games. Yasuda had no reason to lie about when she found the gold or when Kinzo died and there's all the other gameboards claiming only the Natsuhi's group saw Kinzo alive during those years so I think the corpse sotred away for future use is a bit like the rain that falls without wetting the people.

Something that really doesn't work in real life but that can work on the gameboard.

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This doesn't really have anything to do with what I was saying...
I was referring to the close room part. If Kumasawa and Co weren't dead the closed room murder becomes an illusion. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

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Oh, that's true. It's been a while since I've seen that particular scene. Then again, from what I remember, Shannon left the room not long after Kanon showed up, and returned later with a spiderweb which "killed" Kanon. The timing of these things makes me think that the whole scene we were shown was a metaphor for what actually happened. After all, the scene we were shown is at least partially Fantasy, and that can't be denied.
Yes, the scene is undoubtely fantasy. The problem is that this is what the servants told had happened Gohda should know Shannon and Kanon couldn't be at the same place at the same time.
Also there's the whole fact that the corpses were moved. I prefer to think that Gohda, Kumasawa and Nanjo were tricked into taking part to Yasuda's plan, be it a prank or they were told it was a trick to make the real culprit show up (saying something like "we suspect Rosa but she has a gun so we'll tell her Kanon has killed someone. If she or someone else had killed Kanon he might let slip it's not possible because he/she killed him. You two will hide so if they came checking they won't see you're not really dead.")


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