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Old 2012-05-05, 22:49   Link #1541
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
I don't think so. Beatrice became a shell after she had realized that she was the heir to the family fortune as well as Kinzo's illegitimate child.

Ultimately, she realized that all her experiences were the result of a predetermined fate or destiny, leading up to her being Beatrice. However, she didn't want this. She wanted Battler to get her off the island but now that she was Beatrice, the heir to the Ushiromiya fortune, she's bounded to the island as its master with the only way of freeing herself would be to pass the fortune on to somebody else.

So, really, Eva's solving of the puzzle was more or less a blessing, though I don't think it was exactly what she had in mind.
That's not exactly what I meant. I was talking about her plan from the quotes I found in EP1 and EP2. In those episodes, it goes on and on about how Shannon was trapped and the only escape (since George and Battler didn't pan out) was Beatrice's ceremony; one that will grant Shannon (and Kanon) release through death.

It's this thing I was talking about (but I think I forgot to mention that initially... heh) that failed. This was her 'plan,' which required the murders to work. And if Eva did inherit the ring and the headship, then it could only be because she solved the epitaph. Solving the Epitaph means Beatrice's plan to use the Epitaph as a spell to release Shannon and Kanon must have failed at some point.
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Old 2012-05-23, 12:29   Link #1542
Ferdicai
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guys, I have one question about Kyrie in Ep7 -8 ... I don't know why anyone told Battler that Kyrie is his real mother. Has anyone an explanation?
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Old 2012-05-23, 12:54   Link #1543
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I'm not sure what you mean.

Rudolf was going to tell him, but then a serial murder happened (with him dying, most of the time, and even when he didn't it wasn't exactly a good time to go into it).
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Old 2012-05-23, 13:42   Link #1544
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Originally Posted by Ferdicai View Post
I don't know why anyone told Battler that Kyrie is his real mother.
You need a reason to tell the truth?

Or maybe you are asking why did nobody tell him so? If that's so, Rudolf was the only one (apart a bribed doctor or two) who knew. He didn't tell because he wanted everyone to believe Battler was Asumu's son so he could marry Asumu without any problem and make the three of them live like a happy family. After Asumu died he didn't have the guts to tell the truth until the family meeting of 1986
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Old 2012-05-23, 18:07   Link #1545
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You need a reason to tell the truth?

Or maybe you are asking why did nobody tell him so? If that's so, Rudolf was the only one (apart a bribed doctor or two) who knew. He didn't tell because he wanted everyone to believe Battler was Asumu's son so he could marry Asumu without any problem and make the three of them live like a happy family. After Asumu died he didn't have the guts to tell the truth until the family meeting of 1986
Hum... I seem to remember Asumu was already his wife when Battler was born and that he didn't tell because, to him, it was easier to replace Asumu's stillborn with Battler, getting 'rid' of Kyrie who was merely his mistress than to handle the real situation... though in the end he never got rid of Kyrie...
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Old 2012-05-23, 19:34   Link #1546
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According to Kyrie in EP3, Rudolf married Asumu because he had no other choice since Asumu gave birth to a child while she didn't. In other words Kyrie believed that Rudolf was forced to marry Asumu because of that child and she makes a point that she would have been married instead of Asumu if the roles were swapped. Of course she was totally wrong, but as much as her "love" made her see things that don't exist, even her couldn't believe that if Asumu was already married with Rudolf.
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Old 2012-05-23, 22:16   Link #1547
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It's also mentioned that while they got pregnant at about the same time, Asumu announced it IMMEDIATELY, and Rudolf, probably feeling pressured, moved her into his family register. Kyrie only discovered her pregnancy after that ... and when Asumu had the stillbirth, found it LESS AWKWARD to swap the babies, than immediately change wives.

It's one of the most utterly crap things done by a character in this story.
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Old 2012-05-24, 10:17   Link #1548
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It's also mentioned that while they got pregnant at about the same time, Asumu announced it IMMEDIATELY, and Rudolf, probably feeling pressured, moved her into his family register. Kyrie only discovered her pregnancy after that ... and when Asumu had the stillbirth, found it LESS AWKWARD to swap the babies, than immediately change wives.

It's one of the most utterly crap things done by a character in this story.
The best part is it never got adequately flushed out enough to provide any sort of general motivation for it beyond "I'm too lazy and prideful to switch women, but not so lazy that I can't engage in major medical tampering and serious felonies in order to not have to fess up to both of them about it."

If we knew, well, anything at all about Asumu and why she might have made him catch hell for it had she known (or had she been dumped), maybe it would go over better overall. Kyrie certainly did enough implying that Asumu was more clever than she acted. I mean, had Asumu pretty much been planning to ruin Rudolf if he didn't stick with her, maybe his desperation would make more sense.
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Old 2012-05-24, 11:44   Link #1549
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Yeah. Remember who Asumu and Kyrie are. I was under the impression that despite everything the Ushiromiya family has... they're still pretty weak. Sumadera women are scary people.
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Old 2012-05-24, 11:52   Link #1550
Judoh
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Yeah. Remember who Asumu and Kyrie are. I was under the impression that despite everything the Ushiromiya family has... they're still pretty weak. Sumadera women are scary people.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Asumu isn't a Sumadera. She can't be because Kyrie believes that Battler isn't blood related to her. Actually I don't think we ever learned what Asumu's maiden name was.

Last edited by Judoh; 2012-05-24 at 12:46.
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Old 2012-05-24, 16:03   Link #1551
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Wasn't Asumu Kyrie's sister? What are you trying to tell me? D=
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Old 2012-05-24, 16:04   Link #1552
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No, Kyrie's Sister was the woman who tried to kill Ange at the end of Ep 4
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Old 2012-05-24, 16:12   Link #1553
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Well... it's not impossible for someone to have more than one sibling...

I don't know where I thought Asumu, Kyrie, and Kasumi were all related, and looking around, there's not a single place on the web that says it.
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Old 2012-05-24, 16:54   Link #1554
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The best part is it never got adequately flushed out enough to provide any sort of general motivation for it beyond "I'm too lazy and prideful to switch women, but not so lazy that I can't engage in major medical tampering and serious felonies in order to not have to fess up to both of them about it."

If we knew, well, anything at all about Asumu and why she might have made him catch hell for it had she known (or had she been dumped), maybe it would go over better overall. Kyrie certainly did enough implying that Asumu was more clever than she acted. I mean, had Asumu pretty much been planning to ruin Rudolf if he didn't stick with her, maybe his desperation would make more sense.
Well, Rudolf said something about Asumu not being as nice and forgiving as she looked in Ep 8... however honestly considering what Rudolf did I tend to side with Asumu... unless she really forced him into marrying her and scared him so much he didn't dare to leave her or tell her she had a stillborn or that he had a baby with Kirye...

Though this sounds pretty different from how Battler saw his mother... so, even though it's possible Battler's opinion is biased I'm not really sure how much scary could be Asumu...
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Old 2012-05-24, 18:05   Link #1555
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The best part is it never got adequately flushed out enough to provide any sort of general motivation for it beyond "I'm too lazy and prideful to switch women, but not so lazy that I can't engage in major medical tampering and serious felonies in order to not have to fess up to both of them about it."

If we knew, well, anything at all about Asumu and why she might have made him catch hell for it had she known (or had she been dumped), maybe it would go over better overall. Kyrie certainly did enough implying that Asumu was more clever than she acted. I mean, had Asumu pretty much been planning to ruin Rudolf if he didn't stick with her, maybe his desperation would make more sense.
Ah, Asumu HAS to have known Kyrie was pregnant, too. As you say, it's hard to guage - Rudolf seemed to have really genuinely loved her and all that, but Kyrie notes that Asumu acted "repulsively" to "corner" Rudolf into marrying her. But then, Kyrie is angry and bitter and spent a dozen years totally drinkin' that haterade because she fought and she lost 'cause of her own overconfidence.

I see no reason to assume Asumu was doing anything beyond, I dunno ... regular "put a ring on it" badgering? She seems to have been a good mom, and it's not like the other relatives have anything bad to say about her (though they might just be respectful of her dead-ness, or Ryukishi banished her to the same realm as Kinzo's poor UNNAMED wife).

... ... honestly though I think Ryu just didn't think too hard about it at the beginning. One supposed, for Rudolf, he was fine having a legitimate child and a little illegitimate one off to the side ... but having JUST the child off to the side would've been ...awkward? Yeah, it should have been elaborated a bit.

Geez, now I'm thinking both babies should have lived (but STILL switched, because lolRudolf or something) , and in 1998 Ange would be hunted down by an angry, bitter Battler Sumadera who'd been raised by Kasumi for reasons I can't think of yet.
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Old 2012-05-25, 05:45   Link #1556
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The impression I got was that Rudolf really did love Asumu more, and that's probably why he did the switch. It's possible that he would have felt obligated to divorce Asumu and marry Kyrie if Kyrie was the one keeping the living baby.

But there's no way around it, switching the babies makes Rudolf a scumbag. And he definitely knew it, too. It would have been an interesting angle for Ryukishi to have explored: we know he was too frightened of Kyrie to tell the truth, but how guilty did Rudolf feel, all those years? Or did he not feel guilty? I wonder if he thought at the time something like "Kyrie is so tough that she can overcome this, but Asumu will be shattered if she loses her baby..." or if it was more along the lines of "I want to live with Asumu and the baby as a happy family". Not that either of those makes him look good.

Hell, maybe the true reason for the Rokkenjima incident was that Rudolf did tell Kyrie the truth, and she took it even worse that he thought. It could seriously have sparked the whole thing.
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Old 2012-05-25, 10:17   Link #1557
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Honestly, we know very little about Battler's relationship with Asumu. We get a few hints/jokes about their vehicle phobia and he was clearly pretty close to her in some fashion given his reaction to Rudolf remarrying, but she gets no flashbacks or anything and she probably should have. It's hard for us to even understand Battler's anger when his mother is such an ephemeral figure.

I felt the same way about Kinzo's wife. Remember her? Yeah, she doesn't ever come up much, does she. We know she thought he was up to something. What did she find out? How much did she know, and how much was unconfirmed paranoia? It would've been kinda neat to know. Or at least to know her name or something. Asumu's family name as well. It doesn't appear that those were shocking secrets or anything.
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Old 2012-05-25, 14:22   Link #1558
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Honestly, we know very little about Battler's relationship with Asumu. We get a few hints/jokes about their vehicle phobia and he was clearly pretty close to her in some fashion given his reaction to Rudolf remarrying, but she gets no flashbacks or anything and she probably should have. It's hard for us to even understand Battler's anger when his mother is such an ephemeral figure.

I felt the same way about Kinzo's wife. Remember her? Yeah, she doesn't ever come up much, does she. We know she thought he was up to something. What did she find out? How much did she know, and how much was unconfirmed paranoia? It would've been kinda neat to know. Or at least to know her name or something. Asumu's family name as well. It doesn't appear that those were shocking secrets or anything.
They were considered 'who-gives-a-rat's-ass-secrets', so maybe that's why they weren't included. Though, I agree they would have made for quite neat material to be included, and much better use of screen time than repeating Maria's freting over her rose a thousand times. Asumu's releationship with Battler, or even the interplay of the the two of them and Rudolf as a family would have been heartwarming (at least we can infer so from the small references that are made, and if we ignore the fact that Rudolf is a total dick), though I have to say I've always thought Asumu was a cow and EP6 made that impression stronger. Same goes for her parents.

As for Kinzo's wife...Ah, well, she's probably the most wronged character in Umineko, the poor thing doesn't even get a name, is low in rank, and gets cheated on CONSTANTLY. Though to be fair, she was forced on him, so Kinzo didn't have any obligation to love her, but at least have a little respect for your own wife, man. I mean, Kinzo's adultery always seems to be treated as a very light sin (well, he has much much worse ones in his records, so let's not sweat the tiny details...).
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Old 2012-05-25, 14:32   Link #1559
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Seriously, when you consider all that he did, adultery doesn't even look like it's worth of mention.
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Old 2012-05-25, 15:22   Link #1560
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Kinzo didn't have any obligation to love her, but at least have a little respect for your own wife, man. I mean, Kinzo's adultery always seems to be treated as a very light sin
I mean Eva and Hideyoshi fell in love, and even Natsuhi learned to care for the Ushiromiya family.

Kinzo forces his children to "suffer" the same thing he did. Even though he seems like someone who would want "true love" to prosper, he instead arrange marriages on business value. I assume Asumu's family must have been powerful, and we know the Sumaderas are. Rudolf was lucky and was able to have both. His older siblings learned to love what they have, and they do love what they have.
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