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Old 2011-01-03, 09:28   Link #141
witchfan
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You're way off about the red truth. What Beato was saying is basically "consider it the language of axioms". Whatever said in red is an axiom. It's impossible to prove a theorem without a set of axioms. They're something we accept without proof, so we can continue onwards with our reasoning. So yes, in essence, you can deny the red truth, but then you wouldn't have anything to stand on when trying to figure out the mystery... or so one would think.
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Old 2011-01-03, 09:29   Link #142
MeoTwister5
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The final moments before the murder game begins:

Spoiler for Summaries:


Spoiler for Red Text:


The murder game begins after this. At this point you are allowed to make the choices yourself by reviewing data and all that. I will post screenshots later.
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Old 2011-01-03, 09:29   Link #143
TheForsaken
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Circular Logic View Post
Doesn't that undermine the very existence of the red truth?

After all, ryukishi said several times that red truth only is true if you believe in its existence. There's no way to prove that the red is actually true. It's one of those devil's proof thingamabobs.
You're right. But, well, it's kinda hard to explain.

The Red Truth is what everyone recognizes as the absolute truth.
But you can choose not to believe that absolute truth, i.e. what everyone believe.
Even if the whole world believe in something, you're free to believe otherwise.
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Old 2011-01-03, 09:30   Link #144
Circular Logic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
You're way off about the red truth. What Beato was saying is basically "consider it the language of axioms". Whatever said in red is an axiom. It's impossible to prove a theorem without a set of axioms. They're something we accept without proof, so we can continue onwards with our reasoning. So yes, in essence, you can deny the red truth, but then you wouldn't have anything to stand on when trying to figure out the mystery... or so one would think.
You can reason using empirical evidence. That is, everything that happens in the 'real' world, and things that don't happen on the game board in the meta world.
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Old 2011-01-03, 09:31   Link #145
witchfan
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Would help if we know what the real world was, though.

@Meo- wasn't she talking about the narration?
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Old 2011-01-03, 09:36   Link #146
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForsaken View Post
You're right. But, well, it's kinda hard to explain.
Considering how the perception of "truth" is itself subjective most of the case, it is no wonder you can't have a solid way to define it.

However, an analogy is possible:
Let's compare truth with faith (not necessarily religion), you can immediately have an idea of the nature of truth.
It is all about conviction after all: you can't argue with anything you got, it doesn't mean everyone will agree, no matter the evidences you show (concepts, religions difference etc).

Heck, even many scientific evidences that are "absolute truth" are still looked down or sneered by people who have their own interpretation.
How about Featherine's example? The situation between geocentrism and heliocentrism.
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Old 2011-01-03, 09:40   Link #147
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
Would help if we know what the real world was, though.

@Meo- wasn't she talking about the narration?
I had a bit of trouble with what she meant by story direction (actually the dictionary says it means stage direction, but story seems more appropriate). So yes, my understanding is that all the events presented due to the story's direction are true according to the red.

I have a question for the murder game: I completed all the quiz events and got all the medals. How many "hints" are listed in the hints section of the murder game and does reading them affect the game?
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Old 2011-01-03, 09:45   Link #148
witchfan
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Faith is not a good way to describe it. There is a thin line between axioms and faith, but it is crucial nonetheless: faith is what we believe unconditionally, while axioms are what we assume to be true, so we would be able to reason. If you assume red truth is like 'faith', then if Beato were to say something like "Witches did it" you would accept it. If you assume the red truths are axioms, then after seeing that, you would no longer accept them as such.
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Old 2011-01-03, 09:46   Link #149
Klashikari
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I said "compare". They are fundamentally different as you say, I never stated otherwise... (especially what I mention was the perception of truth in general sense)
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Old 2011-01-03, 09:50   Link #150
witchfan
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Right, they are fundamentally different, which is why I don't think 'faith' is a good way to describe it. It's an inaccurate analogy. Faith is a belief; axioms are a tool. I wasn't saying you don't understand this.
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Old 2011-01-03, 10:17   Link #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
I have a question for the murder game: I completed all the quiz events and got all the medals. How many "hints" are listed in the hints section of the murder game and does reading them affect the game?
21 Hints
Whenever you guess the culprit wrong, a hint is used. (Or you can just go straight for hints without guessing)

When all hints are revealed, there's pretty much no way you can mess up selecting the culprit, but even if you still choose wrong, it's not game over or anything. Just pick another.

I'm not sure if it affects anything else in the game, but I liked reading them because of the interaction between Battler and Beato. I bet this is how they were in their youth reading together.

I did however keep a save before the hints, and used that to solve Bern's game. Just to make it seem like Battler is good at mystery novels. (And by this, I mean in my POV, nothing as far as I could tell was changed)
I sadly couldn't solve it in the first shot. But once a certain hint came up, I figured it out right away.
Spoiler for Hint:


---

I overall enjoyed the episode (and in turn, the series).
I can't wait for the translations on the ending parts which aren't hooked into AGTH.

Favorite scene of the game for me would probably have to be Knox and Dine's Mystery Defense.

Because of all the fight scenes... that reminds me...
*Cough*Krauss/Rosa/George/Jessica/Maria/Gaap/Erika/Dlanor/Will/Bernkastel/Lambdadelta for Ougon please*cough*
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Old 2011-01-03, 11:14   Link #152
yuugi99
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To say that I did not enjoy ep8 would be a lie. However I got a feeling that Ryukishi has betrayed me and most readers. If it would release as a single game, the damage would be at least minimal. But 4 years of solving mysteries that were never answer or was never a mystery to begin with was just so........ betrayed.

I wonder how is the Japanese netizens reacting now?
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Old 2011-01-03, 11:34   Link #153
MeoTwister5
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He already said that he doesn't intend to give an answer, that the mystery has no one truth, and that the "mystery" is not the center months and months ago. Did people not get the memo or something?

People have been told that this isn't the ship they initially thought it was and that they could have jumped off if they wanted by the writer himself. He didn't betray anyone. Betrayal means he lied. He didn't lie because he already admitted that this isn't what a lot of people think or want it to be. People had a choice to go on or get off.

Complaining about something you should have already realized because the writer himself said so is pointless. You were told what this was going to be but you stuck with it anyway. You knew what this was going to be. Complaining about it now is pointless. This has been set in stone since the day he revealed his intentions. Get over it people. If you want to speculate and voice your opinions about the series, do it in the other thread. This isn't the place for it.
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Old 2011-01-03, 11:50   Link #154
Circular Logic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yuugi99 View Post
To say that I did not enjoy ep8 would be a lie. However I got a feeling that Ryukishi has betrayed me and most readers. If it would release as a single game, the damage would be at least minimal. But 4 years of solving mysteries that were never answer or was never a mystery to begin with was just so........ betrayed.

I wonder how is the Japanese netizens reacting now?
From what I can tell from 2ch, the reaction has been really rather positive.
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Old 2011-01-03, 12:22   Link #155
Rias
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Originally Posted by Circular Logic View Post
From what I can tell from 2ch, the reaction has been really rather positive.
positive with endings/????, but yet bitter with the story presentation or lack of truth revealing.
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Old 2011-01-03, 12:23   Link #156
MeoTwister5
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Twilight of the Golden Witch: The Murder Game

This is the murder game, where you now choose the solution to the final game of Rokkenjima. Yes, there is enough information to discover who the villain is for this last game.

Spoiler for Summary:


Now that's done it's time to choose. As for me I'm going to bed as I've been translating for 6 hours lol.

Last edited by MeoTwister5; 2011-01-03 at 13:00.
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Old 2011-01-03, 12:41   Link #157
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Circular Logic View Post
From what I can tell from 2ch, the reaction has been really rather positive.
This. They're more actively discussing the ending and deciding what it means than crying about how RYUUKISHI BETRAYED THEM! like the English-speaking spoiler-readers. Some people think it was a weak ending and some people feel like Ryuu was too strongly influenced by BT's death, but every other post isn't "GOD UMINEKO SUCKS NOW, EVERYTHING'S FAKE AND NOTHING'S REAL!"

On the contrary, they seem to feel that the Meta-world is, in fact, real.
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Old 2011-01-03, 12:45   Link #158
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
This. They're more actively discussing the ending and deciding what it means than crying about how RYUUKISHI BETRAYED THEM! like the English-speaking spoiler-readers. Some people think it was a weak ending and some people feel like Ryuu was too strongly influenced by BT's death, but every other post isn't "GOD UMINEKO SUCKS NOW, EVERYTHING'S FAKE AND NOTHING'S REAL!"

On the contrary, they seem to feel that the Meta-world is, in fact, real.
Heh. It's almost shocking that the Japanese native otaku-dom (with the usual nerdrage stereotype) is more mature about the entire deal than most of the English speaking fanbase that tries to dissociate itself from the negative stigma.

Kind of ironic actually.
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Old 2011-01-03, 13:04   Link #159
Dormeur
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Originally Posted by yuugi99 View Post
I wonder how is the Japanese netizens reacting now?
Unfortunately, it seems that many people got anger or were disappointed about lack of revealing the truth.
And they believe that Ryukishi07 described his readers and fans as 'goats' in Episode 8 and that he insulted them as if he has said "I'm God! Whoever takes objection to me is goat!".

Meanwhile, some people are discussing about possibility of another truth or interpretation.
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Old 2011-01-03, 13:10   Link #160
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Dormeur View Post
Unfortunately, it seems that many people got anger or were disappointed about lack of revealing the truth.
And they believe that Ryukishi07 described his readers and fans as 'goats' in Episode 8 and that he insulted them as if he has said "I'm God! Whoever takes objection to me is goat!".

Meanwhile, some people are discussing about possibility of another truth or interpretation.
To be fair to the goat bit, the Umineko fandom has been particularly awful at times regarding the mystery. People got absurdly and unnecessarily hostile and defensive about everything and proclaimed they alone understood the mystery. Ryuu isn't insulting the average reader, but the hardcore mystery guys who ruin it for everyone. As a good example, the post-6 "SHANNON HAS DID AND IS KILLING EVERYONE, IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS YOU'RE AUTISTIC AND CAN'T READ" people.
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