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Old 2012-06-04, 02:17   Link #1681
Drifloon
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Except there is no solution, so you can't actually reach it. It's the exact opposite of that problem you just stated, and just as bad if not worse since you can always choose to steer yourself away from spoilers, but you can't choose to reference a solution that doesn't exist.
Well, I was talking about the gameboards, which I DO believe have solutions. I think all the important points of the gameboards are solvable, though like I said, I think the main flaw of Umineko is that there are a few mysteries that have multiple possible answers and no decisive evidence to choose one over the others, which is unfortunate. Still, for the most part, the who dunnit, why dunnit and how dunnit can be reached based on the information in the first seven games.

Of course Prime isn't solvable, but it had so little coverage in the game that I'm not sure why people care so much.
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Old 2012-06-04, 03:05   Link #1682
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Of course Prime isn't solvable, but it had so little coverage in the game that I'm not sure why people care so much.
Because Ryukishi made us care about what happened to these people. It's not satisfying to know how they killed in these 'imaginary' stories when we empathize enough with them to want to know why they died in the 'real' world.

How hard is this to grasp, honestly?
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Old 2012-06-04, 04:35   Link #1683
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Of course Prime isn't solvable, but it had so little coverage in the game that I'm not sure why people care so much.
It's because although details of Prime itself weren't given, Ryukishi made a really big thing of the one truth. Ange searched for the truth in all her plotlines. Ep 7's tea party and ep 8's main story were all about the one truth, for her.

Aside from that, it's as AuraTwilight says. We've spent a long time reading about the characters who died/disappeared on Rokkenjima, reading stories about what might have happened to them. But we still don't know what really happened. It's fairly natural to want to know.
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Old 2012-06-04, 14:52   Link #1684
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Right. And for those who sympathized with Ange, it's like....why did you make a huge 1998 story nearly the length of a full Episode? Ange's not going to be satisfied with gameboards, and if we care about her, why the fuck did you give you so much damn screentime?
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Old 2012-06-04, 14:59   Link #1685
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Right. And for those who sympathized with Ange, it's like....why did you make a huge 1998 story nearly the length of a full Episode? Ange's not going to be satisfied with gameboards, and if we care about her, why the fuck did you give you so much damn screentime?
Because her story gives a big insight into Beatrice's heart, which is key to the 'why dunnit'.
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Old 2012-06-04, 15:20   Link #1686
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Because her story gives a big insight into Beatrice's heart, which is key to the 'why dunnit'.
So nothing she wanted mattered, because it was all about Beatrice?

Man, "everything is all about Beatrice" makes Umineko into some narcissistic fantasy about and by a selfish overly-emotional person with delusions of grandeur and self-importance, a near-complete lack of empathy despite believing him/herself to be the most empathetic person in the world, and a possessive desire to be adored by people who barely even know him/her, to the point that he/she believes it would be possible to commit a heinous and unforgivable crime and be sympathized with - even loved and thanked - for it.

...Actually that'd make Yasu a much better villain than the way he/she is presently being read, to be frank.
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Old 2012-06-04, 15:54   Link #1687
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So nothing she wanted mattered, because it was all about Beatrice?
I wouldn't say that, since she got to meet Battler again.
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Old 2012-06-04, 18:16   Link #1688
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Right. And for those who sympathized with Ange, it's like....why did you make a huge 1998 story nearly the length of a full Episode? Ange's not going to be satisfied with gameboards, and if we care about her, why the fuck did you give you so much damn screentime?
Because apparently he wanted to make a point of 'the truth is not that important' at the cost of having most of his readership chasing him with bats and torches. And Ange did find the truth eventually.
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Old 2012-06-04, 18:17   Link #1689
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Because her story gives a big insight into Beatrice's heart, which is key to the 'why dunnit'.
By the time of episode 8, we've already found out who Beatrice is, and the story about revealing her heart has been completed. By that point, Ange had already been given lots of screentime about her search for the truth. But in ep 8 we're still given a whole episode focused on the one truth and Ange's feelings. Ryukishi was aware that most fans wanted to know what happened in Prime, and addressed that in ep 8, even though he refused to show the truth.
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Old 2012-06-04, 20:53   Link #1690
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Because apparently he wanted to make a point of 'the truth is not that important' at the cost of having most of his readership chasing him with bats and torches. And Ange did find the truth eventually.
But we followed Ange. We were made to go through her experiences in all ways except for the actual denouement of her quest. No matter how you read that, that's cheating the reader. If you want us to see her reach her goal, you have to actually show her goal's achievement. Show, not Tell.

Also, several readers ethically disagree with his "the truth doesn't matter" aesop. Because it hurts people. Kuwasama's children, Nanjo's family, Gohda's mother, Jessica's friends...

Why the hell does Ange get to know, but not them? There's a boat captain who felt that that if he arrived sooner, he could've saved them all. He might be wrong, and the truth might set him free.

There must be police officers who lost sleep over being unable to absolve the innocent of suspicion, and bring the truth to light.

And as long as the truth is locked up in the darkness, innocent people will be treated as criminals and murderers, and their memories will be tarnished with malicious speculation, slander, and libel. Eva's suffering will be for nothing, Battler's struggles will be without meaning, and Ange will have to settle with the Silver Medal.
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Old 2012-06-05, 07:06   Link #1691
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Man, Japanese timezone is even bitchier than Germany...so much to quote

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Except there is no solution, so you can't actually reach it. It's the exact opposite of that problem you just stated, and just as bad if not worse since you can always choose to steer yourself away from spoilers, but you can't choose to reference a solution that doesn't exist.
I wouldn't say that Umineko's approach to the problem is perfect in the slightest, though I would say that all questions have been sufficiently answered and everything beyond that would just defeat the purpose of Umineko and destroy the effect he wanted to reach.
He wants people to be able to continue writing message bottles for example. If knowledge about who died how spread wide enough those stories would cease to be possibilities and become mere fantasies...that's the problem of giving a definitive answer.

Is it perfect? No way.
Is it a legitimate way to reconstruct the mystery approach? Sure.

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But that's not true. There is a witness, and that's a witness that was supposed to be a victim no less.

The very fact that she survived is the proof that it wasn't a perfect crime.
But it was, because the survivors never told what really happened.
The perfect crime does not constitute the death of everyone in a certain area, it merely means that the truth is made forever unaccessable. A silent witness is as good as no witness at all.

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But that wasn't Beatrice's purpose at all.
The only reason she did what she did was to create a desperate situation to call forth a miracle. A miracle that unfortunately didn't happen.
Yes, but Beatrice does not exist.
You see, here we reach the conundrum. Beatrice is part of what constitutes the cat box and at the same time the presence of the cat box only creates Beatrice. There might as well not have been any Beatrice on the island.
Beatrice, no, the whole meta world in itself represents the duality of both the wish to hide and to reveal everything. It is brought forth by the fact that anybody even thinks about the case at all. Unless of course you believe in its corporeal existence, which would make a logical solution to the case obsolete.

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Because Ryukishi made us care about what happened to these people. It's not satisfying to know how they killed in these 'imaginary' stories when we empathize enough with them to want to know why they died in the 'real' world.

How hard is this to grasp, honestly?
Really, I know I have been attacked often enough for claiming this, but how is it a sign of "caring" or "empathizing" to want to know how a person died? It is either an act of self-assurement or a displacement of personal pain by watching the pain of others. What do we gain by knowing anything beyond the fact that they did die? And I don't play at a superficial answer like, "it is the solution to the mystery of Prime"....I want to know what we gain for the story as a whole, on a broader level.

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...Actually that'd make Yasu a much better villain than the way he/she is presently being read, to be frank.
I actually believe that this is what makes him/her such a compelling villain.
Being basically a deranged child who threw a tantrum because of an inability to make a decision and, by being placed in one closed circle with equally unstable people, brought about a terrible disaster all the while believing it was all about love.
Though this reading is painted with my view of love and emotion of course
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Old 2012-06-05, 08:06   Link #1692
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But it was, because the survivors never told what really happened.
The perfect crime does not constitute the death of everyone in a certain area, it merely means that the truth is made forever unaccessable. A silent witness is as good as no witness at all.
But Eva's silence wasn't something the culprit, if there ever was one, could actually control by any means we're made aware of. Eva has money, power, and security once she's escaped; she has no reason to remain silent merely to help the killer go uncaught (unless she herself is a killer or accomplice, something that the games seemed to be driving hard against).

It's equivalent to saying that stealing the Mona Lisa by just walking into the Louvre and prying it off the wall and leaving through a fire door is a perfect crime, even though it only worked because the guards all just happened to be napping or on break, the alarm and camera system just happened to be undergoing repairs that day, and no visitors happened to be looking at the most famous painting in the world for the five minutes you were in the room stealing it. You got away with it, nobody knows who did it or how, yet somehow I find fault with the idea that this sort of thing could be a "perfect crime."

If there was a culprit, he or she left witnesses and left evidence. A lot of evidence, in fact. The problem is, Ryukishi didn't bother writing about a lot of that evidence, so things that people in Prime-1998 or Prime-Present should know are unknown to us.

Plus it's not really a perfect crime - assuming a Yasu culprit anyway - when you confess to it. Even if symbolically. Granted if Yasu scapegoating herself was part of a non-Yasu culprit's cover then that goes closer to the perfect crime notion, except again I fail to see how they could control her doing it in any way.
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Old 2012-06-05, 10:18   Link #1693
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He wants people to be able to continue writing message bottles for example. If knowledge about who died how spread wide enough those stories would cease to be possibilities and become mere fantasies...that's the problem of giving a definitive answer.
Well, as much as I do like that people can continue writing Forgeries...I'm not sure this is what Ryukishi wanted, since:
-The people writing the Forgeries are portrayed as antagonists in EP8.
-Ikuko not revealing the truth apparently somehow STOPPED the Forgeries (yeah, I don't get this either)
-The "accept that you'll never know what happened and move on" message is in complete opposition to continuing to theorise about it. (Then again, Ryukishi's own constant insistence that you'll find the truth if you don't stop thinking is in opposition to that so who knows)

Also...the forgeries are already guaranteed fantasies anyway, other than EP3, considering that Eva dies in all of them.
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Old 2012-06-05, 12:11   Link #1694
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I wouldn't say that Umineko's approach to the problem is perfect in the slightest, though I would say that all questions have been sufficiently answered and everything beyond that would just defeat the purpose of Umineko and destroy the effect he wanted to reach.
He wants people to be able to continue writing message bottles for example. If knowledge about who died how spread wide enough those stories would cease to be possibilities and become mere fantasies...that's the problem of giving a definitive answer.
This isn't a legitimate excuse. People already write marvelous Forgeries that have no basis in reality, such as Kinjo's games, which don't even pretend to be the truth. However, they are still wondrous mysteries and stories besides, and Ryukishi isn't ignorant of this since he used to host similar fan Forgeries on his website.

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Really, I know I have been attacked often enough for claiming this, but how is it a sign of "caring" or "empathizing" to want to know how a person died? It is either an act of self-assurement or a displacement of personal pain by watching the pain of others. What do we gain by knowing anything beyond the fact that they did die? And I don't play at a superficial answer like, "it is the solution to the mystery of Prime"....I want to know what we gain for the story as a whole, on a broader level.
You must have never lost a loved one to ambiguous causes. It gives CLOSURE. I mean, goddamn, look at Ange. If the truth doesn't come out, she doesn't know if her loved ones were alive or not, which of them is responsible for taking them all away from her, whether or not her parents and brother were worth her love to the end, and WHY her entire family were robbed from her.

It is a deep sign of love, empathy, and self-investment to want to know why a precious person was taken from you, and the series does a very good job of making the family important to you emotionally. I know at one particularly emotional point in my life during my reading, I proclaimed, "If Umineko doesn't have a happy ending I might never be happy again."
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Old 2012-06-05, 13:05   Link #1695
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Really, I know I have been attacked often enough for claiming this, but how is it a sign of "caring" or "empathizing" to want to know how a person died? It is either an act of self-assurement or a displacement of personal pain by watching the pain of others. What do we gain by knowing anything beyond the fact that they did die? And I don't play at a superficial answer like, "it is the solution to the mystery of Prime"....I want to know what we gain for the story as a whole, on a broader level.
As Aura says, it's about closure. It is generally considered a good sign when your readership sincerely cared about the fate of your characters. And ye gods, I spent 3 years really really hoping some Hanyuu bullcrap would come out nowhere and give the Ushiromiya's a happy Oct. 6th.

Still, even if it's a bit morbid, you'd want to know for certain, right, the way someone's life ended? Was it deserved? Meaningless? Peaceful? There's a world of difference between "George blew up while in the middle of a fun picnic with his cousins because of an electrical surge." and "George was shot repeatedly shot in the stomach by his uncle because lol-Kyrie".
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Old 2012-06-05, 13:18   Link #1696
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That aside, that information is kind of important to society. If someone was a criminal, society demands that information be known. If it was an accident, society dictates that should be revealed so people can stop idle gossip about it and let it fade. It's a matter of justice and social decorum, and attempting to hide it is a social faux pas. You could say any given individual may have no right to know, but "society" on the whole essentially does, if only to settle all accounts and exonerate those who did nothing wrong in the eyes of those who remain.

There's a reason journalists and historians are sometimes unpopular or viewed as nosy and insensitive. But there's also a reason our society values their work. And for a journalist interested in unlocking the historical mystery of what happened that weekend in 1986, it's pretty disappointing to know that someone is actively impeding your earnest search for the truth just because some people might judge too harshly.
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Old 2012-06-05, 14:25   Link #1697
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I'm curious what everyone who thinks that the truth of Prime should be made known think about the feelings of those who survived the disaster. I understand your points as to why it should be made known, but considering Eva spent her entire life trying to conceal the truth of the events, and that Battler clearly had no desire to explain what had happened, and Hachijo - who KNEW what had happened thought it was for the better not to tell anyone else, I feel like demanding to know the truth for 'the sake of society' is just trampling on the feelings of those who had to experience the event themselves.

As far as closure for those who knew the people who died, to some extent yes, I believe they deserve some form of closure. I would certainly not be happy to be in their place and told 'lol dont worry about it.' But also, I'm pretty sure in-world Eva told people that everything that happened was an accident. This is what the press and the police were told, so if they choose to willingly not believe Eva, who was personally there, they are just denying themselves the closure they want so badly. While Eva's position might be suspicious considering what she stood to gain from everyone else dieing, I don't think you can complain about not knowing what happened when someone TOLD you what happened and you willingly decided to not believe them.

As far as the 'society deserves to know' argument, I don't really agree. The only reason the general public would care about what happened would be out of curiosity, which is hardly a good enough reason to disregard the feelings of the survivors. As far as a sense of societal justice being needed, the police were fully allowed to, and did, investigate to their heart's content on the island. I know there wasn't much left to investigate, but again once you get to that point where there is no hard evidence and you willfully ignore the testimony of the survivors, you are kind of dooming yourself to never know the answer.

The only way I could see it being justified that anyone would need to know the truth of what happened was if it was all some incident perpetrated by Battler (since we know Eva isn't the culprit.) Otherwise, exhonerating or condemning the dead is meaningless: there's nothing you could do to punish them if they were guilty, and if you really wanted to exhonerate them, just believe what Eva says. She says it was an accident, and there is no one who can provide proof that she's lieing (aside from obviously herself and Battler), so there is really no 'good' reason for the public at large to not believe her aside from 'she's suspicious cause she benefited from it.' People benefit from deaths all the time, not very many of those are murders.

Of course, this is all only from an in-universe stand point. The decision of whether or not to tell the readers what happened is an entirely different argument.
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Old 2012-06-05, 15:37   Link #1698
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I'm curious what everyone who thinks that the truth of Prime should be made known think about the feelings of those who survived the disaster. I understand your points as to why it should be made known, but considering Eva spent her entire life trying to conceal the truth of the events, and that Battler clearly had no desire to explain what had happened, and Hachijo - who KNEW what had happened thought it was for the better not to tell anyone else, I feel like demanding to know the truth for 'the sake of society' is just trampling on the feelings of those who had to experience the event themselves.
They are not the only victims. Please don't ignore Captain Kawabata, the families of Nanjo, Kumasawa, and possibly others, the other employees who were off duty that weekend, residents of Fukuin House who may have lost considerable funding from the sudden collapse of the Ushiromiya family network (Eva may or may not have been able to save it, but it probably lost a lot), police officers who worked the case and wanted to find truth, business associates and friends of the family and staff, Maria's father who has lost his daughter (and will never have a chance to reconnect with her and apologize for leaving her), etc.

There are too many people with a potential interest to play games with deciding who does and does not deserve to have the information. People cannot be fair arbiters of truth if they're concealing it. The only fair arbiter of truth is truth itself. Let the facts stand for themselves.
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As far as the 'society deserves to know' argument, I don't really agree. The only reason the general public would care about what happened would be out of curiosity, which is hardly a good enough reason to disregard the feelings of the survivors. As far as a sense of societal justice being needed, the police were fully allowed to, and did, investigate to their heart's content on the island. I know there wasn't much left to investigate, but again once you get to that point where there is no hard evidence and you willfully ignore the testimony of the survivors, you are kind of dooming yourself to never know the answer.
If you've ever known a cop, and I presume you don't know that many closely because most people don't unless they're in law enforcement, they do not like unsolved cases. Not being able to, effectively, do their job eats at them. Being unable to provide answers to victims' families is a crushing emotional weight for many detectives. A situation like this doesn't end once you've collected all the evidence you can immediately find. It never ends until you have an answer.
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The only way I could see it being justified that anyone would need to know the truth of what happened was if it was all some incident perpetrated by Battler (since we know Eva isn't the culprit.) Otherwise, exhonerating or condemning the dead is meaningless: there's nothing you could do to punish them if they were guilty, and if you really wanted to exhonerate them, just believe what Eva says.
Dying to escape blame for wrongs is itself far more wrong than society condemning the dead. Society has a right to condemn the dead for things they did against the social order. If it turns out that Jessica murdered her whole family, her memory deserves to be tarnished in the eyes of society and her victims held up as what they are. To do otherwise is intensely selfish and basically a sign of a warped narcissistic morality.
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Old 2012-06-05, 15:47   Link #1699
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I'm curious what everyone who thinks that the truth of Prime should be made known think about the feelings of those who survived the disaster. I understand your points as to why it should be made known, but considering Eva spent her entire life trying to conceal the truth of the events, and that Battler clearly had no desire to explain what had happened, and Hachijo - who KNEW what had happened thought it was for the better not to tell anyone else, I feel like demanding to know the truth for 'the sake of society' is just trampling on the feelings of those who had to experience the event themselves.
Hachijou doesn't know shit. She deliberately chose NOT to look in Eva's diary, and thus doesn't know any better than anyone else.

And what about the families of the dead? What about the people who's lives are effected by the event? Eva might be noble for what she did, but she's also WRONG, because ultimately all it did was destroy her own life and severely wound Ange's.

Because Ange was denied the truth, she never made any friends and spent her childhood and adolescence miserably and clinging to fantasy as escapism. Because he feared the truth, an amnesiac man resisted his memory and only surviving family in a self-destructive fashion.

The hiding of the truth has done nothing to hurt people, and there is no reason to keep hiding it aside from fear; but when the truth is revealed, that fear will disappear; even if what they feared comes true, it can be dealt with. Knowing for sure that your parents were evil is much easier to deal with and put behind you than the eternal uncertainty of "could I ever trust my family?"

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But also, I'm pretty sure in-world Eva told people that everything that happened was an accident.
She said no such thing. The media came to that conclusion because there's no evidence for anything, so it'd be severely irresponsible to put the blame on anyone involved.

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This is what the press and the police were told, so if they choose to willingly not believe Eva, who was personally there, they are just denying themselves the closure they want so badly. While Eva's position might be suspicious considering what she stood to gain from everyone else dieing, I don't think you can complain about not knowing what happened when someone TOLD you what happened and you willingly decided to not believe them.
Eva never said that, and even if she did she would be lying. What the hell is wrong with not believing in a liar? It's not 'closure' if you just accept a comfortable lie. Maria, Ange, and Yasu all tried that and all three of them were hurt by it.

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As far as the 'society deserves to know' argument, I don't really agree. The only reason the general public would care about what happened would be out of curiosity, which is hardly a good enough reason to disregard the feelings of the survivors. As far as a sense of societal justice being needed, the police were fully allowed to, and did, investigate to their heart's content on the island. I know there wasn't much left to investigate, but again once you get to that point where there is no hard evidence and you willfully ignore the testimony of the survivors, you are kind of dooming yourself to never know the answer.
There is a boat captain who blames himself for being unable to save them when it can turn out he was never able to do anything. That truth would set him free.

Nanjo's son went through life forever wondering if his father was a criminal.

Jessica's friends were all robbed of someone radiant and special to them, and it certainly spoiled the rest of their high school lives at best, depending on how close she was to them.

Asumu's relatives, thinking Battler is their own blood, will die never knowing what happened to him, and always mourning him like Asumu herself.

And among all of this, these people have to deal with hobbyists using the tragedy as entertainment, speculating and villainifying whoever they please. Unless the truth comes out, ALL EIGHTEEN OF THEM ARE TREATED AS POTENTIAL MURDERERS. Only if the truth comes out can THE OTHER SEVENTEEN BE EXONERATED AS INNOCENT.

You are ignoring everyone involved here who isn't a Witch Hunter. Why should the loud minority damn everyone else involved in this mess? Why should the 9/11 "Inside Job" conspiracists doom the families of everyone who died in the incident, to use an analogy?

Hiding the truth is evil.

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The only way I could see it being justified that anyone would need to know the truth of what happened was if it was all some incident perpetrated by Battler (since we know Eva isn't the culprit.) Otherwise, exhonerating or condemning the dead is meaningless: there's nothing you could do to punish them if they were guilty, and if you really wanted to exhonerate them, just believe what Eva says. She says it was an accident, and there is no one who can provide proof that she's lieing (aside from obviously herself and Battler), so there is really no 'good' reason for the public at large to not believe her aside from 'she's suspicious cause she benefited from it.' People benefit from deaths all the time, not very many of those are murders.
Again, Eva didn't say that, and even if she didn't, her word doesn't prove anything. That's not exoneration.

And there is worth in condemning and exonerating the dead. The memories of the lost is important to history and to the people left behind. Is Maria an inspiration worth emulating, like Ange felt, or is she a deluded child to be pitied? This effects people's lives.

Is George a loving fiance who died heroically, or was he some psychotic, loser obsessive who might've killed everyone in a fit of madness? This effects people's lives.

Rokkenjima doesn't exist in a fucking vacuum. All of these people HAD LIVES IN JAPAN THAT EFFECTED HUNDREDS OF OTHER PEOPLE DIRECTLY AND INDIRECTLY.

The reputation of Rosa can doom her entire fucking company. The Rokkenjima conspiracy theorists could have put her firm out of business due to bad publicity. But if Rosa were innocent and the truth was open from the beginning, this wouldn't of happened.

God fucking dammit, none of you give a shit about any of these people, do you? I would hate for these apologists to actually give their opinions on real-world tragedies.
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When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
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Old 2012-06-05, 17:29   Link #1700
jjblue1
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A funny thing that came to my mind is that in Ange's world there's not red truth and that, appanrently, no truth could be proved about the Rokkenjima incident due to the island being destroyed.
So even if Eva, Battler or Yasu or whoever else were to say the truth... well, it would be the truth only as long as people were to accept it as truth.
Sure, for us readers it would be the TRUTH and, in mysteries, the truth of a confession or that the detective found is always accepted as the TRUTH (No one goes around saying: hey, but maybe Hercule Poirot was wrong...) but, in Ange's world, we can't even prove that what Eva wrote in her diary is the TRUTH and not her own perception of the truth.

This for me means that, even if the truth were to be told/discovered, unless there were absolute proof it is the TRUTH... well, it would have a meaning only as long as it is accepted.

Assuming that knowing the TRUTH would bring relief or closure or whatever, Kuwabata, the police and the families of the others involved would have a chance to find relief from the TRUTH being revealed only if it could be proved is the TRUTH or if they were to accept it as such.

If the TRUTH can't be proved and we've to rely only on acceptance of it we're already provided with more possible canon truths: it was all an accident (the official truth), it was Eva doing (Ange's truth), it was Kyrie and Rudolf and possibly Battler doing (Witch hunters' last trend about the Rokkenjima truth). We can come up with more, one of them can even be true but, as long as it can't be proved, in Ange's world this will never become a red truth.

Without proof the world becomes the equivalent of the tribunal of witches of EP 5.
Erika's explanation seemed to make sense but we know it wasn't the TRUTH.
Battler's explanation too made sense but again, it wasn't the TRUTH.
Ep 5 doesn't really paint the tribunal of witches as a good thing but that's just because Erika is a jerk and we know Natsuhi is innocent.

So I'm not saying the TRUTH of Rokkenjima is meaningless, just that, if it couldn't be proved it is the TRUTH, it's on the same level as saying everything was caused by an accidental explosion.

As far as I'm involved I think this is the point Ryukishi is trying to make not giving us a clear answer for Prime. Prime is anti-mystery or purpose, opposed to the game boards that are mystery. Prime can't be solved though people can make educate guesses about what had happened. It's like forcing a parallel between reality and fiction.

Now, there are tales that deal with murders that are and will stay unresolved even if maybe the main character is trying to solve them and they're perfectly legittimate tales.
The point however is that they aren't in the 'murder mystery' section. If written well, readers won't read them expecting a solution, they would read them focusing on whatever is going on with the main character and how he's dealing with it. He is the 'mystery' so to speak, and the readers want to know what he'll do when he discovers the truth or when he'll discover he can't discover the truth, the truth in itself being of little importance compared to the mystery of his future actions.

Umineko however, as far as I'm involved, failed to handle well this part.

Prime's mystery seems much more interesting than 'how Ange will deal with everything' mystery, which, by the way, is not even properly addressed as we've 2 solutions for it and we can chose which one we prefer, moving the whole mystery to 'how the readers will deal with the tale presented' but, ironically, not offering us an 'answer' that will match with the state of who's frustrate there's no answer and wants to continue seeking the truth or wanted the truth to be known by the others.

So... no, I'm not against the general idea behind the ending of Umineko... but I think it was handled poorly, at least as far as I'm involved. While the mystery of the tragedy is the main focus of all the episodes Ange's role is much more marginal and therefore a lot less interesting for me. For my own tastes she wasn't even THAT interesting to make her shine so that, in my books, her fate would be more important than the mystery of Rokkenjima.
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