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Old 2006-11-13, 21:04   Link #201
techiet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielSong39 View Post
Looks like we have another winner in the siscon category, as it looks like Gift ~ Eternal Rainbow is headed in that direction. But of course, Riko has no blood relations and only lived with Haruhiko for a short time.
What's even weirder is that in episode 6...
Spoiler for Episode 6 details:


I honestly don't mind incest in anime as long as they don't shove it down my throat...I have a sister, so any directly related incest is unpleasing in my mind.
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Old 2006-11-13, 21:18   Link #202
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I'd say the majority of "incest" in anime only lives in the mind of the (mostly American based on what I've seen at animesuki) viewer. Cousins aren't incest in most of the world and U.S., people unrelated by blood aren't incest (think of a bunch of village children who are essentially raised together from birth ---- guess what, they get married later, guess what -- most of them are related in some way because its a freaking small village). I guess its the "forbidden" idea that is a turn-on (or jawdropper) for some --- the rest I just sign off to clueless provincial lack of knowledge about the world. Not to mention that the use of "oni-chan" can apply to any older male child that the young femme feels is a protector of some sort.
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Old 2006-11-13, 21:24   Link #203
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in fact, cousins are related in blood. And I think at least close cousins can't get married in the majority of the world by law. Distant cousins are of course no problem.
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Old 2006-11-13, 22:25   Link #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post
in fact, cousins are related in blood.
I think you mean Gene, as in family gene. Blood....generally doesn't denote ones family trait, I mean, it would be so easy to have blood transfusions if that were true lol

I guess, what I mean is, the mixing of genes and such....

bleargh, my brain is fried. Maybe not so good to be fansubbing late at night and taking a break on a forum

(I had noticed this thread is a bit old....I hadn't noticed I had posted in here previously if not for the thread icon )
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Old 2006-11-13, 22:49   Link #205
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Originally Posted by Worldestroyer View Post
And for your 2nd question, those anime's play on a geeks dream. For instance a in OTeacher a small person (he could be looked at as a geek or semi-social outcast) fell into a relationship with a HOT older women througha # of completely random events that are pure luck. So it plays on your dreams of falling in love with 1/multiple EXTREAMLY attractive women.
I don't think that has much to do with eva though. I believe that shinji was made a male character in order to keep him from seeming moe and inheriting stereotypes and cliches associated with it. The focus should be on his attempts to overcome his depression, not on how attractive he is. On top of that, he would've seemed way too cliche as a female.
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Old 2006-11-14, 02:15   Link #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post
in fact, cousins are related in blood. And I think at least close cousins can't get married in the majority of the world by law. Distant cousins are of course no problem.
bzzzzt, thank you for playing but your facts are incorrect (other than cousins being related by blood sometimes (unless they're cousins-via-marriage)).

Fact: 26 states allow first cousin marriages; Most people can marry their cousin in the US.

Fact: Any US prohibitions against cousin marriages predate modern genetics.

Fact: No European country prohibits marriage between first cousins. It is also legal throughout Canada and Mexico to marry your cousin. The USA is the only western country with cousin marriage restrictions.

Fact: It is estimated that 20 percent of all couples worldwide are first cousins. It is also estimated that 80 percent of all marriages historically have been between first cousins!

Some pertinent links:
http://www.cousincouples.com/?page=facts
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/041001.html
There also government census data links but -- google is your friend.

In some sense, we are all cousins. No two people are more distantly related than 50th cousins. In some parts of the world, cousin marriage is preferred simply because of the social bonds that already exist within the extended families.
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Old 2006-11-14, 02:57   Link #207
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Ah, this theme again.... Really, i do not understand why people keep seeing incest everywhere left and right even when there is not any. As far as Gift is concerned they are not even related - Riko was adopted some years ago and left soon after - they have not even lived together for long. And we also know that Riko is Haruhiko's first love ever since then, so he has never seen her just as his 'little' sister.

As far as Onii-chan goes - that can be applied to any male character as a form of respect/representation of a brotherly figure. Sakura calls her cousin Onii-Chan. Elis calls her cousin Onii-chan etc... I think in anime more often than not some one called Onii-chan is not the actual brother of the girl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo
in fact, cousins are related in blood. And I think at least close cousins can't get married in the majority of the world by law. Distant cousins are of course no problem
In fact, you are completely wrong here. It is perfectly fine in most of the world. It is fine in half of the US and all of Europe and Canada as far as western civilization is concerned. (I assume you are american). (which is, i would assume, you think 'where it counts' - so, sorry, but you are out of luck here.) Try finding out true facts about things before presenting your (false)opinion as a fact.

Other that that Vexx narrowed it down perfectly as allways.
*would give some rep but i have to spread some arround first...bleh*

Quote:
Originally Posted by techiet View Post
What's even weirder is that in episode 6...
Spoiler for Episode 6 details:


I honestly don't mind incest in anime as long as they don't shove it down my throat...I have a sister, so any directly related incest is unpleasing in my mind.
Incorrect.
Spoiler:


And direct incest is kinda hard to achieve between people who are not related in the first place. Heck, i do not remember ever seeing an anime with incest to begin with. Most 'incest' is brought up by people who have false views on the subject.
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Old 2006-11-14, 05:49   Link #208
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The thing I found interesting about Koi Kaze is that, although the two are blood siblings, they haven't been raised as brother and sister. There was a study a few years back, reported in New Scientist, about incest. It's very rare among siblings who have been brought up together. In fact, sex between non-related siblings that have been raised together from an early age is also very rare It's an instinct to stop you breeding with someone too genetically close. There is no similar instinct between siblings that have been raised seperately.
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Old 2006-11-14, 05:54   Link #209
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I must be out of my mind when I say this.. but my neighbor is an orphan and lo and behold, his parents gave birth to a girl.. their gap is like 2-3 years and they can't stop humping each other. haha.. weird
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Old 2006-11-14, 06:04   Link #210
Electroguy
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I think its rather interesting how Japanese culture is openly (relative to other nations) exploring the more taboo aspects of sex & sexuality.

Incest is a big problem in the bible belt of America and the Amish communities:-

(a generalisation, so if you fall into one of those groups and don't get busy with your sister pat yourself on the back I dont want to know about it.)

-: yet I could never imagine America tackling the incest issue with the type of almost positivity the Japanese do.

Where the bible belt types reach the conclusion of incest through repression and closed communities the Japanese reach it because they find it amusing/interesting and they acknowledge that everyone has this potential for the twisted and macabre.
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Old 2006-11-14, 06:12   Link #211
DarkCntry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electroguy View Post
I think its rather interesting how Japanese culture is openly (relative to other nations) exploring the more taboo aspects of sex & sexuality.

Incest is a big problem in the bible belt of America and the Amish communities:-

(a generalisation, so if you fall into one of those groups and don't get busy with your sister pat yourself on the back I dont want to know about it.)

-: yet I could never imagine America tackling the incest issue with the type of almost positivity the Japanese do.

Where the bible belt types reach the conclusion of incest through repression and closed communities the Japanese reach it because they find it amusing/interesting and they acknowledge that everyone has this potential for the twisted and macabre.
Actually, you're somewhat reversed, the 'Bible Belt' states are actually well against the idea and action of incest, in and of any level. Not sure about the Amish, and as far as I know, West Virginia is the only state in the country that has a specific legislation on the books regarding incest, however that information is quite a few years old and it may have phased out quite a while back.
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Old 2006-11-14, 14:07   Link #212
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaiarth View Post
The thing I found interesting about Koi Kaze is that, although the two are blood siblings, they haven't been raised as brother and sister. There was a study a few years back, reported in New Scientist, about incest. It's very rare among siblings who have been brought up together. In fact, sex between non-related siblings that have been raised together from an early age is also very rare It's an instinct to stop you breeding with someone too genetically close. There is no similar instinct between siblings that have been raised seperately.
I've seen that study mentioned. It has me wondering what statistical populations they were using (whether it included urban, rural, techological, agricultural,etc).

I understand the concept from the experience of two girls who lived on my street that I knew from kindergarten on up into high school. I dated each of them and our immediate mutual feeling was "I feel like I'm dating my (brother/sister)." But we grew up in a suburban environment in Texas with its local Bible Belt issues about such things mixed with an industrialized lifestyle.
On the other hand, my mother's parents grew up in a small town and had essentially been raised next to each other from preschool and were married for 60+ years. Both are anecdotal and no conclusions can really be drawn from them.

I've seen it mentioned in multiple psychological articles that much of the world prefers marrying people they know versus strangers they've met (or at least between families that know each other). It is only reversed in some parts of America and a few other places -- and even then only historically recently (in the last 100 years or so).

I suppose one could trace it to the disruption of extended families due to the industrialization age and the resulting social taboos from not wanting to appear to be "rural".
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Old 2006-11-14, 14:30   Link #213
False Dawn
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My take on incest: if Biblically (and probably actually) we all came from the same woman to start with, then whatever happens, we are all the products of something incestuous. I personally don't see the problem with incest - other than its physical issues (mutations, genetics and so on). The only reason it's a taboo is because it's socially and culturally shunned, not really because of any inbuilt emotion telling you "NO!"

Take that as you will. I have to admit that I haven't got a sister, and I've hardly ever seen my cousins... so I could have a somewhat biassed view of the subject

However, without the inklings of incest, Riko would never have come to our screens, and I think that would be a bigger felony in itself ^_^
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Old 2006-11-14, 15:07   Link #214
ImClueless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I've seen that study mentioned. It has me wondering what statistical populations they were using (whether it included urban, rural, techological, agricultural,etc).

I understand the concept from the experience of two girls who lived on my street that I knew from kindergarten on up into high school. I dated each of them and our immediate mutual feeling was "I feel like I'm dating my (brother/sister)." But we grew up in a suburban environment in Texas with its local Bible Belt issues about such things mixed with an industrialized lifestyle.
On the other hand, my mother's parents grew up in a small town and had essentially been raised next to each other from preschool and were married for 60+ years. Both are anecdotal and no conclusions can really be drawn from them.

I've seen it mentioned in multiple psychological articles that much of the world prefers marrying people they know versus strangers they've met (or at least between families that know each other). It is only reversed in some parts of America and a few other places -- and even then only historically recently (in the last 100 years or so).

I suppose one could trace it to the disruption of extended families due to the industrialization age and the resulting social taboos from not wanting to appear to be "rural".
I remember one of the sources of data regarding not being sexually attracted to people raised alongside you is the Kibbutzs in Israel. The children are raised communally away from their parents. I recall reading somewhere that they found the children who were raised in this manner did not find eachother sexually attractive eventhough there is no segregation of males and females.
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Old 2006-11-14, 15:48   Link #215
Vexx
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I suppose we could call that the "too much knowledge is bad" meme
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Old 2006-11-14, 16:17   Link #216
Electroguy
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Originally Posted by DarkCntry View Post
Actually, you're somewhat reversed, the 'Bible Belt' states are actually well against the idea and action of incest, in and of any level. Not sure about the Amish, and as far as I know, West Virginia is the only state in the country that has a specific legislation on the books regarding incest, however that information is quite a few years old and it may have phased out quite a while back.
^_^ I think you misunderstood me.

They are "against" the concept of incest as are most people.

What they do however is not representative of this.

Obviously I dont wish to generalise over millions of people over tens of states but the stereotype of the incestuous bible belt/deep south hick exists for a reason.

I saw an interesting report which pretty much showed that there is very little genetic difference in a very large amount of people that would allow the analysis to be made that over the last 200 years+ there was a lot of inbreeding going on in these areas.

I'll try to track it down for you.
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Old 2006-11-14, 18:08   Link #217
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I've seen that study mentioned. It has me wondering what statistical populations they were using (whether it included urban, rural, techological, agricultural,etc)."
Well, it's pretty groundbreaking stuff on sexual imprinting - so it's been duplicated in lots of different places. Do a search on "Westermark effect" and you should find lots of information. Imclueless has the basics of the initial study correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I understand the concept from the experience of two girls who lived on my street that I knew from kindergarten on up into high school. I dated each of them and our immediate mutual feeling was "I feel like I'm dating my (brother/sister)." But we grew up in a suburban environment in Texas with its local Bible Belt issues about such things mixed with an industrialized lifestyle.
On the other hand, my mother's parents grew up in a small town and had essentially been raised next to each other from preschool and were married for 60+ years. Both are anecdotal and no conclusions can really be drawn from them.
Both are anecdotal - but your anecdotes aren't really the same. There is a large difference between a best friend who lives next door and someone who is raised in the same house by the same caregivers, even if you spend every day together. The Westermark effect only speaks to people who are raised together by the same caregivers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I've seen it mentioned in multiple psychological articles that much of the world prefers marrying people they know versus strangers they've met (or at least between families that know each other).
At some level this is like saying "Rain is wet." Of course people prefer marrying people they know. The alternative is people you DON'T know. The Westermark effect pretty clearly demonstrates; however, that humans (and most animals) are not going to be sexually imprinted (i.e. find attractive) opposite-sex members that they are raised with. But, again, there is a big difference between "raised with" and "grew up with".
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Old 2006-11-14, 18:38   Link #218
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I guiess you could look at it from a geneitic stand point in a lot countries merrying a family member is ok. But eventually the genetics of it will catch up to the offspring. Its kind of creepy but i can seperate anime from reality. I guess for most western countries its not widly accepted but each country to it own
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Old 2006-11-14, 18:44   Link #219
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1. Not (originally) targeted to western audiences
2. Taboo stuff is "cool"
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Dunno, sorta goes well with the guiltless-loli + adopted little sister schtick.
Yeah, in Gift's case, it really isn't.
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Old 2006-11-14, 18:45   Link #220
ImClueless
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The Westermarck effect! Kudos to rooboy for naming it, I was pretty sure I have read about it before, but I completely forgot. Anyway, another factor in play is genetic sexual attraction as seen in Koi Kaze. I <3 Wikipedia.
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