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Old 2008-01-01, 22:10   Link #281
kj1980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Getting back tot he Incest topic here. if @2 is true that means the children of those 2 original humans married and had sex with eachother. That means the children of Adam and Eve committed INCEST.

So if incest was back then for the 2nd generation of humanity, why is it unacceptable now?
You know, this has always intrigued me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis 4:15~17
15 And the LORD said unto him: 'Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.' And the LORD set a sign for Cain, lest any finding him should smite him.

16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bore Enoch; and he builded a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son Enoch.
OK, so I understand Cain killed his brother Abel and some higher being was displeased so it banished Cain to a place called Nod. There he married.

MARRIED WHO? WHERE DID THIS GIRL COME FROM?
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Old 2008-01-01, 22:15   Link #282
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heh.... and now the thread spirals.... but yeah, that is "left as an exercise to the reader" no matter which version of Genesis you use. And a building a city has all of its own implications.

To answer Terrestrial Dream: You can take any random couple (f/m) and start... after a few dozen generations and some minor isolation (move to an island, split off and form a highland group, etc)... guess what?

You'll have variation in skin tone, facial characteristics, language, and culture. So that isn't a great argument against the "only two to start with" hypothesis.


But..... back on topic --- I'll resay that anime pseudo-incest and incest are just other facets of the fantasies available to fiction readers looking for mild taboo-ish romance.
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Old 2008-01-01, 22:26   Link #283
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As a trained molecular biologist, I can tell you that the original human race. is not Caucasian. There are no two original humans. There were a small population of humans living in East Africa that gave rise to the whole population of the world today. The first humans are more than likely have dark skin, while their descendants lost the color of their skin after they moved to high altitude areas (europe and asia).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
Well in the end we are all related to each other if we go by either evolution or creation I suppose . But kinda a off topic but adding to what Xellos said, so if first two humans were one race, I am guessing some type of Caucasians, how did they had Asian, Black, or Native American as their descendant who looks nothing like that? I am Sorry if that sound really stupid and ignorant, but I never really read the bible so please forgive my ignorance and stupidity .
Also on School Day, what Xellos wrote, that is really screwed up.
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Old 2008-01-01, 22:43   Link #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^
Getting back tot he Incest topic here. if @2 is true that means the children of those 2 original humans married and had sex with eachother. That means the children of Adam and Eve committed INCEST.


So if incest was back then for the 2nd generation of humanity, why is it unacceptable now?
If you believe that stuff, incest would have been for reproductive necessity. Who else would they of had to produce offspring with?

I largely find the "we are all related" point moot anyway. By saying that we are all genetically related is obvious (being of the same species and all we are all bound to share genetic similarities on some level) and really doesn't progress the debate. Incest is between close family members, not your 50th cousin.
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Old 2008-01-01, 23:00   Link #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
Well in the end we are all related to each other if we go by either evolution or creation I suppose . But kinda a off topic but adding to what Xellos said, so if first two humans were one race, I am guessing some type of Caucasians, how did they had Asian, Black, or Native American as their descendant who looks nothing like that?
I really hope you're talking about Creationism here, otherwise.... It's just one of many reasons I choose not to be religious. The more we know, the more it conflicts with religion.

Anyway, I agree with Fweakin. It's a moot point discussing human origins, not to mention wildly off-topic.

Back to the subject for which this thread was resurrected: Why incest is so prominent in anime- because it is legal in Japan. Agree? Disagree?

I would have to disagree. First of all "incest", or sex between members of the immediate family, is NOT legal in Japan. Cousin marriage is, which is a grey area between incest and uh...not incest. Secondly, true "incest" is NOT prominent in anime, the only real examples are Myself;Yourself, Koi Kaze, and School Days *shudders*. Two of which are initially done unknowingly, M;Y being only implied.
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Old 2008-01-01, 23:13   Link #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
I really hope you're talking about Creationism here, otherwise.... It's just one of many reasons I choose not to be religious. The more we know, the more it conflicts with religion.

Anyway, I agree with Fweakin. It's a moot point discussing human origins, not to mention wildly off-topic.

Back to the subject for which this thread was resurrected: Why incest is so prominent in anime- because it is legal in Japan. Agree? Disagree?

I would have to disagree. First of all "incest", or sex between members of the immediate family, is NOT legal in Japan. Cousin marriage is, which is a grey area between incest and uh...not incest. Secondly, true "incest" is NOT prominent in anime, the only real examples are Myself;Yourself, Koi Kaze, and School Days *shudders*. Two of which are initially done unknowingly, M;Y being only implied.
You forgot Angel Sanctuary - THE Best Example of Incest (sibling) in Manga and anime.
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Old 2008-01-02, 06:33   Link #287
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The only downside I know is that incest causes a higher chance of birth defect.

Other than that I don't see a problem!
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Old 2008-01-02, 08:34   Link #288
babybro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
This is really off topic and getting dangerously close to a creationism vs evolution debate. The topic is incest, specificly incest in anime. Please don't bring the bible into it unless it's relevent to your position on incest. If you want to discuss the merits of evolution, feel free to create your own thread, which will likely be promptly locked as nothing good comes from those.

Anyway, as to incest in anime, I say basicly what I said the first time this thread made its rounds. Forbidden love makes a great story. As forbidden love goes, you can't top incest, except perhaps yuri incest. In addition to the normal drama that comes from a romance, you get the added drama from the fact that she's the main character's sister or whatever.

As for why we see more incest stories in anime than say US television doesn't have much to do with the taboo on incest itself. Rather, I believe it can be traced to a taboo of discussing taboos in pop culture. Basicly US TV studios don't want to risk offending anyone, so they will tend to stay away from topics such as that. This is mainly because the shows are intended to reach as wide an audience as possible.

Anime, on the other hand is aimed at otaku for the most part. As such they don't have to worry as much about offending people and alienating a certain demographic. This gives a bit more freedom to explore taboo issues, though only a bit. In the end most cases of incest it turns out they aren't blood related. Sure there are some, but even in anime true incest is rare.

Though personally I think it's just as much incest with an adopted sister as a blood related sister, but that's just my view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Getting back tot he Incest topic here. if @2 is true that means the children of those 2 original humans married and had sex with eachother. That means the children of Adam and Eve committed INCEST.

So if incest was back then for the 2nd generation of humanity, why is it unacceptable now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
Well in the end we are all related to each other if we go by either evolution or creation I suppose . But kinda a off topic but adding to what Xellos said, so if first two humans were one race, I am guessing some type of Caucasians, how did they had Asian, Black, or Native American as their descendant who looks nothing like that? I am Sorry if that sound really stupid and ignorant, but I never really read the bible so please forgive my ignorance and stupidity .
Also on School Day, what Xellos wrote, that is really screwed up.

Kamui: That post your quoted was only a response to someone who was asking a question about such things. As such, the correct post to quote and to ask to create a new thread would have been tripperazn, not I. Just correcting you on a mistake you made.


Dream: Please see my post regarding Noah to answer you question.

Anyway that's enough off-topic discussion regarding the bible. If you want to do discuss the bible specifically further which doesn't relate to incest, we can always talk to pm.
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Old 2008-01-02, 09:06   Link #289
Gaiarth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyovermind View Post
The only downside I know is that incest causes a higher chance of birth defect.

Other than that I don't see a problem!
Of course, if you are passing on two copies of a bad gene it is going to be trouble. On the other hand, if you are passing on two copies of good genes it can be an advantage. The Ptolomys practiced incest for generations and produced Cleopatra, reputedly the most beautiful woman of the age. The rulers of the Aztec Empire (whilst banning the practice of incest for the general population) considered the fact that they produced healthy babies from marrying their sisters proof of the blessings of the gods. Whilst there is an incresed risk of birth defects with incest, it takes generations of inbreeding to produce the sort of results most people think of when discussing the subject.

And, of course, these days it is perfectly possible to have a relationship without breeding. I can see nothing wrong in a truly mutually-consentual incestual relationship. Unfortunately, in real-life these are extremely rare. Most incest is the result of abuse or coercion.

Also, there are a number of H-games and AVs that have an incest theme. Whilst these are obviously different from the romantic sort of incest the thread started talking about, they could give a hint towards why it features. The Japanese are simply a lot less uptight than some when it comes to their fantasies...
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Old 2008-01-02, 10:28   Link #290
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Here is a copy from wikipedia about the genetic issues that come to play in regards to incest. Be careful, it's pretty complicated.

"Inbreeding leads to an increase in homozygosity (the same allele at the same locus on both members of a chromosome pair). This occurs because close relatives are much more likely to share the same alleles than unrelated individuals. This is especially important for recessive alleles that happen to be deleterious, which are harmless and inactive in a heterozygous pairing but, when homozygous, can cause serious developmental defects. Such offspring have a much higher chance of death before reaching the age of reproduction, leading to what biologists call inbreeding depression, a measurable decrease in fitness due to inbreeding among populations with deleterious recessives. Recessive genes, which can contain various genetic problems, appear more often in the offspring of procreative couplings whose members both have the same gene. For example, the child of persons who are both hemophiliac has a nearly 100% chance of having hemophilia.

Leavitt has argued that inbreeding in small populations can have long-term positive effects: "small inbreeding populations, while initially increasing their chances for harmful homozygotic recessive pairings on a locus, will quickly eliminate such genes from their breeding pools, thus reducing their genetic loads". (Leavitt 1990, p. 974.) However, other specialists have argued that these positive long-term effects of inbreeding are almost always unrealized because the short-term fitness depression is enough for selection to discourage it. In order for such a "purification" to work, the offspring of close mate pairings must be either homozygous-dominant (completely free of bad genes) or -recessive (will die before reproducing). If there are heterozygous offspring, they will be able to transmit the defective genes without themselves feeling any effects. This model does not account for multiple deleterious recessives (most people have more than one) and multi-locus gene linkages. The introduction of mutations negates the weeding out of bad genes, and evidence exists that homozygous individuals are often more at risk to pathogenic predation. Because of these complications, it is extremely difficult to overcome the initial spike in fitness penalties incurred by inbreeding. (Moore 1992; Uhlmann 1992.)"

Also Gaiarth, it is definitely not the "japanese" so to speak that are less uptight, but more over the otaku's who draw such things. You have to realise that to most of society, otaku's are consider one of the banes of society. To be considered an otaku is to be looked at with disgust and avoidance. That is why even though it's occasional to see incest in anime/manga, but never in japanese drama's or television shows. When addressing otaku's, it's best to consider their thinking seperate from japanese people, because that's how they think out here.
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Old 2008-01-02, 12:46   Link #291
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Wow...here is where my biology knowledge comes in handy...I actually understand all that lawl
But I disagree view about how just because otaku's are looked down on, there are promoting the ideas of incest through anime. That is just...wrong...
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Old 2008-01-02, 12:58   Link #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babybro View Post

Also Gaiarth, it is definitely not the "japanese" so to speak that are less uptight, but more over the otaku's who draw such things. You have to realise that to most of society, otaku's are consider one of the banes of society. To be considered an otaku is to be looked at with disgust and avoidance. That is why even though it's occasional to see incest in anime/manga, but never in japanese drama's or television shows. When addressing otaku's, it's best to consider their thinking seperate from japanese people, because that's how they think out here.
Agreed, that's probably the biggest mistake foreign fans make about anime and Japanese Culture. Anime does reflect the daily activities of the culture but it also presses into far 'wilder' territory that don't reflect majority attitudes.
Sometimes its good (addressing inter-racial relations, or breaking out of the social ruts, pushing that love is more important than appearances, etc) -- sometimes it is digging into taboos or just the prurient. I don't think they're actually advancing incest for the sake of advancing it, its just another of many forms of fantasy "slightly forbidden" types of love that humans get a secret charge-up out of thinking about.

The General Culture is taking a long time to get over their disgust of the otaku (which is FAR more distasteful to them than the "american geek" is or was to US culture thanks to the connection made by the occasional serial killer of children... or the occasional gory crime that the newspapers hammer up any connection to anime/otaku). And honestly, I'll say that most Westerners who think using the word "otaku" as a badge of honor are doing themselves no favor. I stick to using the word "fan" as "otaku" (to a Japanese) essentially means "weird shut-in obsessive scary freak".
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Old 2008-01-02, 15:27   Link #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babybro View Post
Kamui: That post your quoted was only a response to someone who was asking a question about such things. As such, the correct post to quote and to ask to create a new thread would have been tripperazn, not I. Just correcting you on a mistake you made.


Dream: Please see my post regarding Noah to answer you question.

Anyway that's enough off-topic discussion regarding the bible. If you want to do discuss the bible specifically further which doesn't relate to incest, we can always talk to pm.
Alright that explains it thank you .
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Old 2008-01-02, 16:10   Link #294
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I live in a country where incest is taboo, however I don't mind watching anime with incest because it makes the story so much juicier. ^^
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Old 2008-01-02, 16:21   Link #295
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I find the entire concept of having any form of sexual relations with someone in your own family...disgusting and immorale. I for one Completly am for the theme and concept of true love and all that but im sorry when it comes to family members...it just doesnt seem right
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Old 2008-01-02, 16:39   Link #296
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Quick... define "your own family" because that's a vague sociological dependent term.
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Old 2008-01-02, 16:44   Link #297
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That's true, because how close/far do they have to be? Are second cousins considered part of your family even though you've never seen/heard of them?
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Old 2008-01-02, 16:47   Link #298
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Quick... define "your own family" because that's a vague sociological dependent term.
okay by my definition of family i mean everyone in your household, uncles aunties, grnadparents, the whole kaboose, also when i say family i also have to put foward that that includes relatives that are not blood related i still find the whole idea of sexual relations with a family member just not right **i am christian so that might be half of it but honestly this is just my own morale instinct here** ill admit that some socities accept it as commonplace but i am completly against it and if they want to see it as common place and if thats what they believe is right I will not go out of my way to try and change them, i hope that they for themselves can see the morale implications of their actions
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Old 2008-01-02, 17:36   Link #299
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okay by my definition of family i mean everyone in your household, uncles aunties, grnadparents, the whole kaboose
I know in some places it's common to have multi-generational households, but in most of the world it isn't. How many people live with their uncles/aunts/grandparents etc?

Growing up, I had almost no contact with my paternal side of the family (uncles/aunts/cousins etc) and very little contact with my maternal side. Both of my parents were 'black sheep' and didn't see their families very often. I could've easily gotten in to a relationship with a cousin and never known it, because I never knew most of them, yet most of them lived in the same city.

As mentioned though, that kind of thing is really common. But it does bring up an interesting question with attitudes like yours.

You say it's disgusting... because you know they're family. Even non-blood related. That's 100% a mental block, due to your social ingrained values. But what if you didn't know, and you met and fell in love with somebody, only to find out down the road they're related. Would you suddenly fall out of love with them? I doubt it. That's not how human relationships work.

I've been watching this topic for a while now, but not really had much to say on the topic that hasn't already been said. 'course what I've just said has already been said too, but I'm in a typing sort of mood at the moment so feel like replying.

I have no issues with incest at all. It's socially taboo in this country, but that hasn't impacted my viewpoint at all. I think love is love, and that's that. Nothing should get in the way of that, not family status, religion, race, gender, age (to an extent) or anything.

Most of the 'morals' and social values thrust upon most societies have been done so by religion, some of which make sense, some of which, like this, don't.

Now, some people play the whole genetic mutation card. And that is a point (though as mentioned, first cousins, it's a fairly low risk.) however... that's ONLY a valid point if people plan to have kids. A lot of people don't these days. What's wrong with any couple having a healthy sexual relationship as long as they don't involve reproduction?

But even if you do get in to the reproduction side of things, it is irresponsible to go having kids you know will have an increased chance of genetic mutation, but then a lot of people do that anyway, without incest involved. There are also parents who have a bunch of kids they can't afford to raise, that's just as irresponsible, I think. But, that's going off topic a bit. I'm in a rambly kind of mood atm. >.<

Looking at incest from a personal viewpoint... I don't think I could have sex with any of my family members, but that's purely because I don't like my family at all. There's no sort of "OMG THAT'S SO WRONG TO EVEN THINK ABOUT" in my head or anything. It's just a "I hate my family, I don't want to screw any of them." thing.

Were I to randomly meet and fall in love with one of my cousins, and found out later, I'd just shrug it off. Doesn't matter to me at all. But there's also zero chance of that happening because I don't want any kind of relationship at all, so I'm safe from any such nonsense. I value my hikikomori lifestyle too much to go messing it up with silly romance and such.

Anyway. I didn't really have anything to say that hasn't already been said, so I'll just shut up now.
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Old 2008-01-02, 17:49   Link #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakura_Kinomoto View Post
okay by my definition of family i mean everyone in your household, uncles aunties, grnadparents, the whole kaboose, also when i say family i also have to put foward that that includes relatives that are not blood related i still find the whole idea of sexual relations with a family member just not right **i am christian so that might be half of it but honestly this is just my own morale instinct here** ill admit that some socities accept it as commonplace but i am completly against it and if they want to see it as common place and if thats what they believe is right I will not go out of my way to try and change them, i hope that they for themselves can see the morale implications of their actions
The classic example is "cousin" which I see you haven't explicitly mentioned. But in small towns, islands, tribes, and rural areas, it gets pretty tough to find someone who isn't related to you by second cousin or cousin once removed,etc. .... so I guess you'd be just stuck

"Christian" has little to do with it though someone may have draped it that way for you. The Bible does not rule out cousin or more distantly related marriage. That's just social custom from the Industrial Revolution twisted around. And there's no such thing as "moral instinct"... it is all taught.

The poor Pakistani guy news article referenced a page or two ago is a prime example of stupid taboos and getting entangled in them. Core beliefs and taboos should be examined critically periodically. "What is the purpose of this rule and why do I assume it is axiomatic?"
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