AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > General Anime

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-01-02, 18:07   Link #301
Sakura_Kinomoto
Kaede/Ama Fan boy
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Australia >< It suxz
Age: 22
well i dont want to become an outspoken person here and well i personally beelieve tthat Incest is something that i wouldnt condone and im sorry if that makes me a jerk or ignorant but thats what i think and honestly no amount of convincing is going to change that, It was how i was bought up and as someone who wants to go into the field of History i am more than willing to acknowlege and understand that there is incest out there and that it is acceptable in many communities, i myself am still going to be personally against it, im not though going to speak out against it or condone it, if people have found true love through it then fine im happy for them but i think that Somebody within your family is off limits and wether you agree with me or wether you find it totally acceptable is your own personal opinion and i am ready to accept that, just try to see it through different peoples view points. that is my point of view and it is a personal point of view
__________________

Ama is so Kawaii, But Sakura kinomoto will always be no1
Long live Kitto Kitto Kaede!
Sakura_Kinomoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-02, 18:41   Link #302
Reckoner
Bittersweet Distractor
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakura_Kinomoto View Post
well i dont want to become an outspoken person here and well i personally beelieve tthat Incest is something that i wouldnt condone and im sorry if that makes me a jerk or ignorant but thats what i think and honestly no amount of convincing is going to change that, It was how i was bought up and as someone who wants to go into the field of History i am more than willing to acknowlege and understand that there is incest out there and that it is acceptable in many communities, i myself am still going to be personally against it, im not though going to speak out against it or condone it, if people have found true love through it then fine im happy for them but i think that Somebody within your family is off limits and wether you agree with me or wether you find it totally acceptable is your own personal opinion and i am ready to accept that, just try to see it through different peoples view points. that is my point of view and it is a personal point of view
This is a problem with society my friend. People seem to be under the delusion that not saying anything makes everything perfectly fine. The basic fact is that people still look down on other people in their minds regardless of what they say to them. Its not just incest, but racism is very much like this in our world. Most people say they are not, but the truth is that many are. Since incest is taboo, people who get involved with incest are automatically a lower human being in the masses' eyes.

Now then, don't get me wrong, I am not saying you are one of these hypocrites who think things differently than they say aloud. It's just that unfortunately these people will not be treated like decent human beings because of views such as this.
Reckoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-02, 18:54   Link #303
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakura_Kinomoto View Post
well i dont want to become an outspoken person here and well i personally beelieve tthat Incest is something that i wouldnt condone and im sorry if that makes me a jerk or ignorant but thats what i think and honestly no amount of convincing is going to change that, It was how i was bought up and as someone who wants to go into the field of History i am more than willing to acknowlege and understand that there is incest out there and that it is acceptable in many communities, i myself am still going to be personally against it, im not though going to speak out against it or condone it, if people have found true love through it then fine im happy for them but i think that Somebody within your family is off limits and wether you agree with me or wether you find it totally acceptable is your own personal opinion and i am ready to accept that, just try to see it through different peoples view points. that is my point of view and it is a personal point of view
Points of view should be defendable. It is a fallacy that every opinion has equal value when some are defendable and others aren't.

You don't seem to be using a definition of the word "incest" that isn't generally accepted, so it makes it difficult to have a discussion. A lot of what you're defining as "incest" most communities *don't*. You also still haven't clearly defined what you mean by "family" or "relatives". Is a third cousin a relative? Is your cousin's cousin "family"? Is an aunt's cousin "family?

So I'm going to suggest you exert some energy to study a topic before having an opinion on it.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-02, 19:04   Link #304
Slice of Life
eyewitness
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Just to put things into perspective, I went to the anidb and searched anime per category. "Incest" returned 38 results, if I counted them correctly. And I bet many of these 38 hits are about relationships that aren't considered incestous at all in Japan and many other parts of the world, as has been pointed out here again and again. On the other hand, I got 130 hits for "rape", more than three times as much. And on the doujinshi market the ratio in all probabilty much greater. Does that mean the the otaku subculture or even the Japanese society as a whole considers rape as a legitimate form of sexual approach? Of course not. Sexual fantasies are not the same as desired reality, and such anime are not about your own imouto (if you have one in the first place!).
__________________
- Any ideas how to fill this space?
Slice of Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-02, 19:47   Link #305
Kamui4356
Aria Company
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by babybro View Post
Kamui: That post your quoted was only a response to someone who was asking a question about such things. As such, the correct post to quote and to ask to create a new thread would have been tripperazn, not I. Just correcting you on a mistake you made.
Umm... You're the one who mentioned a debate between science and the bible, Noah and the flood, and belief in a young earth. It's one thing to mention Adam and Eve's children or lot and his daughters or other topical biblical references in a thread on incest, but none of those things have anything to do with it. Well maybe Noah...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life
Just to put things into perspective, I went to the anidb and searched anime per category. "Incest" returned 38 results, if I counted them correctly.
A lot of those results are alternative titles though. Onegai Twins has 11 title varations alone. Really it's only showing 5 series, Onegai twins, Koi Kaze, Boku wa Imouto ni Koi o Suru, Angel Sanctuary, and Papa to Kiss in the Dark. That last one seems to be a shounen ai title, but according to the discription it's another example of not blood related. Onegai Twins, if I remember correctly they didn't know which one was the sister and once they found out the sister backed off somewhat, even if her feelings didnt' change. So that leaves 3 actual blood related incest anime listed there. There might be more series out there that haven't been properly tagged though.
__________________
Kamui4356 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-02, 19:59   Link #306
babybro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Interesting information on christian views regarding incest. According to leviticus, (sp)
even step children or step brother and sister is not allowed.

"In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Book of Genesis in the Bible, Lot's two daughters have sex with him to carry on their lineage.

Later, the Book of Leviticus lists prohibitions against sexual relations between various pairs of family members. Father and daughter, mother and son, and other pairs are forbidden, on pain of death, to have sexual relations. (Father–daughter incest is covered by a prohibition on sexual relationships between a man and any daughter born to any woman he has had sexual relationships with, thereby prohibiting his incest not only with his own daughters but also with women who could be his stepdaughters by marriage.) Leviticus also prohibits sexual relations between aunts and nephews, but not between uncles and nieces. Christians interpret it to include the latter by implication, though Jews traditionally do not.[citation needed]

Judaism also traditionally considers it to have been an act of great kindness on God's part to allow Adam and Eve's children to marry each other in order to perpetuate the human race.
"
babybro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-02, 20:04   Link #307
Slice of Life
eyewitness
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
A lot of those results are alternative titles though. Onegai Twins has 11 title varations alone.
No, it was without synonyms but with hentai.
__________________
- Any ideas how to fill this space?
Slice of Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-02, 20:23   Link #308
tripperazn
Toyosaki Aki
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by babybro View Post
Interesting information on christian views regarding incest. According to leviticus, (sp)
even step children or step brother and sister is not allowed.

"In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Book of Genesis in the Bible, Lot's two daughters have sex with him to carry on their lineage.

Later, the Book of Leviticus lists prohibitions against sexual relations between various pairs of family members. Father and daughter, mother and son, and other pairs are forbidden, on pain of death, to have sexual relations. (Father–daughter incest is covered by a prohibition on sexual relationships between a man and any daughter born to any woman he has had sexual relationships with, thereby prohibiting his incest not only with his own daughters but also with women who could be his stepdaughters by marriage.) Leviticus also prohibits sexual relations between aunts and nephews, but not between uncles and nieces. Christians interpret it to include the latter by implication, though Jews traditionally do not.[citation needed]

Judaism also traditionally considers it to have been an act of great kindness on God's part to allow Adam and Eve's children to marry each other in order to perpetuate the human race.
"
I can understand that much of Western moral code is dictated by the Bible, however, we are talking about Anime. As you probably know, Christians in Japan are quite rare. Converts Judaism are virtually unknown among native Japanese. Good to know, but off-topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
No, it was without synonyms but with hentai.
Yeah, I didn't think there would be 130 broadcasted anime titles with rape as a genre...
__________________
tripperazn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-02, 20:36   Link #309
Kamui4356
Aria Company
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
No, it was without synonyms but with hentai.
Ah. My search didn't include ero titles. While they are anime, I'm not sure they should really be included. Though I suppose one could make the case that since the focus is on sex to begin with, ero anime could be better representitive of the amount of incest compared to other types of relationships.

Incidentily, am I the only one concerned that anidb makes a distinction between tenticals and mechanical tenticals in their catagory listing?
__________________
Kamui4356 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-03, 06:17   Link #310
Gaiarth
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The South of England
Age: 45
Quote:
Also Gaiarth, it is definitely not the "japanese" so to speak that are less uptight, but more over the otaku's who draw such things
Yeah, sorry, I hate it when people make broad generalisations about populations. When I said 'the Japanese are less uptight with their fantasies' I really meant otaku (whether of anime/H-games or AVs). I should have made that more explicit, rather than leaving it implicit (in that the conversation is taking part in what is an otaku forum...). Basically, I was trying to say that maybe geeks in Japan are more open to out-there stuff than many of we geeks in the West
Gaiarth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-04, 02:19   Link #311
stardf29
Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
I suppose I'll throw in a couple of cents. I'm a Christian, so I suppose the following can count as a Christian viewpoint, though I'd hardly say it's one shared by many Christians.

First... yes, incest was pretty much a necessity for Adam and Eve's children. However, consider that there's an all-powerful God who could "override" genetic laws... so genetics isn't an issue. My belief is that God created the genetic system and was still developing it at Adam and Eve's time. However, by the time of Leviticus, there were enough humans in the world that the genetic system would be ready to "run on its own", so to speak... and so God forbade incest at least partially (if not entirely) to safeguard against the genetic problems it might cause.

That said... one thing I've always found interesting is that Christians refer to other Christians as "brothers and sisters in Christ". At the same time, the Bible strongly recommends against Christians' marrying non-Christians... essentially, that Christians should only marry fellow brothers/sisters in Christ. It's almost like the Bible actually promotes a form of pseudo-incest (though it forbids "true" incest still).

But of course, that just applies to Christians, and the people that write anime are very likely not Christians.

Something else, though. Not sure how many of you agree with me, but it seems to me that for any relationship that is of a brother-sister nature (regardless of whether the relationship is actually brother-sister), as that relationship gets closer, it starts to resemble and/or take on a few properties of a mature romantic relationship.

I don't mean to say that brother-sister relationships are romantic or that they will necessarily become one... but the two types of relationships share some similarities. Both are (ideally) heavily based on commitment to the other person, and (ideally) there's a fair amount of (non-passion-based) intimacy in both types of relationships, too. That said, it wouldn't be a huge stretch for a brother-sister-type relationship to become a romantic relationship, depending on the situation.

I think, then, that this aspect of a brother-sister-type relationship gets explored quite a bit... which is why there seem to be lots of anime featuring non-blood-related siblings or childhood friends who see each other as siblings. And I guess some anime writers aren't quite satisfied with that and move on to actual blood siblings... :P
stardf29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-04, 06:15   Link #312
Marina
~La-la Land~
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Seattle
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakura_Kinomoto View Post
Spoiler for :
Not to be evil....but I tried reading this out loud and almost passed out. Do you realize there isn't a period until...well, near the very end. Just thought it a bit humorous.

Overall, I have no hatred for incest nor am I shocked of its usage in anime, but I would never do it myself no matter how attractive my cousin may look. I was raised Christian, although I no longer am one, and the ideals have stuck and I can't see an incestuous relationship as a possibility. I do understand though that sibling love can turn into something more, even love between cousins, so I would never look down on a couple forming either of those pairings. Whatever you do is between you and 'god'. As long as it does not negatively effect others, I have no qualms with these sort of actions if both sides are willing. My only concern would be of the impact upon children born of the union. Would health problems arise? It's a higher possibility.
__________________
My Anime Blog:
Anime B&B
Follow me on Twitter!
_________________
Visit my gallery
Sig: HSxHoneycomb
_________________

My Anime List

ISML
Marina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-04, 13:09   Link #313
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
And for the umpteenth time, relationships between first, second, or whatever cousins is not legally or even genetically incest in most of the world. Any children born of first cousins have a barely registered chance of more health problems, cousins more removed are no different than strangers.

Incest is legally and genetically defined to between members of the *immediate* family of blood relation (mother, father, brother, sister) or directly preceding ancestry (grandparents, aunts, uncles). In a few jurisdictions, first cousins are also excluded.

Relations between *non-blood* relatives (step-sisters, someone just raised in the house with you, etc) is only illegal in a few jurisdictions with ineptly worded laws and often struck down when challenged.

If people can't even get the parameters of the meaning right, its rather difficult to have a meaningful discussion.

Its perfectly fine to be personally "ewww" over the idea of courting *anyone* including people who show up for the holiday dinner --- but "incest" has a pretty specific meaning.

Last edited by Vexx; 2008-01-04 at 13:20.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-04, 14:04   Link #314
Xellos-_^
Married
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by stardf29 View Post
I suppose I'll throw in a couple of cents. I'm a Christian, so I suppose the following can count as a Christian viewpoint, though I'd hardly say it's one shared by many Christians.

First... yes, incest was pretty much a necessity for Adam and Eve's children. However, consider that there's an all-powerful God who could "override" genetic laws... so genetics isn't an issue. My belief is that God created the genetic system and was still developing it at Adam and Eve's time. However, by the time of Leviticus, there were enough humans in the world that the genetic system would be ready to "run on its own", so to speak... and so God forbade incest at least partially (if not entirely) to safeguard against the genetic problems it might cause.
With Genetic screening that is available currently and more advance technique that will available in the future I really don't see that being much of a problem. So if the problem is with producing children that has genetic problems to due inbreeding then either not having children or getting genetic counseling fro the couple and genetic screen for the developing fetus would take care of that problem.
__________________
Xellos-_^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-04, 17:23   Link #315
Marina
~La-la Land~
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Seattle
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Incest is legally and genetically defined to between members of the *immediate* family of blood relation (mother, father, brother, sister) or directly preceding ancestry (grandparents, aunts, uncles). In a few jurisdictions, first cousins are also excluded...

If people can't even get the parameters of the meaning right, its rather difficult to have a meaningful discussion.

Its perfectly fine to be personally "ewww" over the idea of courting *anyone* including people who show up for the holiday dinner --- but "incest" has a pretty specific meaning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina
I do understand though that sibling love can turn into something more, even love between cousins, so I would never look down on a couple forming either of those pairings.
Not sure who you're referring to, but I'm putting this up for emphasis for those of you who don't read closely.
And I know the genetic threats are barely higher, but the changes are fractionally higher, whether people want to admit it or not. It just depends on the person whether that tiny possibility will bother them. But then again, I'm an only child, so I have no siblings to really base opinions on how brother/sister relationships might feel.
__________________
My Anime Blog:
Anime B&B
Follow me on Twitter!
_________________
Visit my gallery
Sig: HSxHoneycomb
_________________

My Anime List

ISML
Marina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-04, 17:50   Link #316
tripperazn
Toyosaki Aki
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina View Post
Not sure who you're referring to, but I'm putting this up for emphasis for those of you who don't read closely.
And I know the genetic threats are barely higher, but the changes are fractionally higher, whether people want to admit it or not. It just depends on the person whether that tiny possibility will bother them.
You're right, statistically they are higher. But also consider that it is the same for people who marry within their own race. Disorders like Creutzfeldt-Jakob and Sickle Cell Anemia are only present among pure bred Jews (in a very very specific region in Europe) and those of African descent respectively. Yet, most people do choose to marry those of the same ethnicity, even in diverse countries like the US. Anyway, I can go on about other reasons why cousin marriage is okay (besides having a really hot cousin of course ), but as others have said, it's not technically incest.

IMO, there really isn't a reason to legally forbid incestuous relationships. As long as the couple is completely aware of the genetic risks in case they decide to have children. Just scrolling through the list of disorders in Wiki is pretty scary. True love is rare enough as it is, why let something physical like genetics get in the way? I mean homosexual relationships (one chromosome difference) were looked down upon similarly and now it's a lot more acceptable.
__________________
tripperazn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-04, 18:09   Link #317
Wervy
Cutely Pervy
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Well personaly I feel that any loser who wants to sleep with his sister/mother has brain damage. I think it stems from the fact that these people cant get a girlfriend in the real world, so they begin to get feelings for the people that have a relationship with them. Its freaking pathetic really, and I hope anyone who wants to comit incest gets help or ends their worthless life so their family never knows how fucked up they are.
__________________
Wervy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-04, 18:59   Link #318
Blaat
AS member for 10 years
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wervy View Post
Well personaly I feel that any loser who wants to sleep with his sister/mother has brain damage. I think it stems from the fact that these people cant get a girlfriend in the real world, so they begin to get feelings for the people that have a relationship with them. Its freaking pathetic really, and I hope anyone who wants to comit incest gets help or ends their worthless life so their family never knows how fucked up they are.
Are you serious?
Blaat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-04, 19:02   Link #319
babybro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by stardf29 View Post
I suppose I'll throw in a couple of cents. I'm a Christian, so I suppose the following can count as a Christian viewpoint, though I'd hardly say it's one shared by many Christians.

First... yes, incest was pretty much a necessity for Adam and Eve's children. However, consider that there's an all-powerful God who could "override" genetic laws... so genetics isn't an issue. My belief is that God created the genetic system and was still developing it at Adam and Eve's time. However, by the time of Leviticus, there were enough humans in the world that the genetic system would be ready to "run on its own", so to speak... and so God forbade incest at least partially (if not entirely) to safeguard against the genetic problems it might cause.

That said... one thing I've always found interesting is that Christians refer to other Christians as "brothers and sisters in Christ". At the same time, the Bible strongly recommends against Christians' marrying non-Christians... essentially, that Christians should only marry fellow brothers/sisters in Christ. It's almost like the Bible actually promotes a form of pseudo-incest (though it forbids "true" incest still).

But of course, that just applies to Christians, and the people that write anime are very likely not Christians.

Something else, though. Not sure how many of you agree with me, but it seems to me that for any relationship that is of a brother-sister nature (regardless of whether the relationship is actually brother-sister), as that relationship gets closer, it starts to resemble and/or take on a few properties of a mature romantic relationship.

I don't mean to say that brother-sister relationships are romantic or that they will necessarily become one... but the two types of relationships share some similarities. Both are (ideally) heavily based on commitment to the other person, and (ideally) there's a fair amount of (non-passion-based) intimacy in both types of relationships, too. That said, it wouldn't be a huge stretch for a brother-sister-type relationship to become a romantic relationship, depending on the situation.

I think, then, that this aspect of a brother-sister-type relationship gets explored quite a bit... which is why there seem to be lots of anime featuring non-blood-related siblings or childhood friends who see each other as siblings. And I guess some anime writers aren't quite satisfied with that and move on to actual blood siblings... :P

I was talking about this in an thread of kimi kiss rouge, as the main heroine originally looked at the main protoganist as a little brother, but slowly began looking at him as a romance partner. I was quite sadden by it, because for a personal standpoint, I find it disgusting. Which relies to your point about not being a huge stretch for a brother-sister type to become romantic. The point being is that when a person considers someone a brother or sister to them, the relationship shouldn't change to a romantic one, because just as an average person wouldn't have sex with their blood related siblings, neither should they with people they considered siblings.

As scientific studies shows that when a people who aren't even blood related are raised as siblings, they do not possess romantic interests in their "adopted siblings" Which means that people who suddenly change their relationship from a brother-sister type relationship to a romantic type relationship never had a brother-sister relationship to began with, but rather just really close friends.
babybro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-04, 19:07   Link #320
Deathkillz
~ You're dead ^__^* ~
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: uk, England
Age: 24
Send a message via MSN to Deathkillz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wervy View Post
Well personaly I feel that any loser who wants to sleep with his sister/mother has brain damage. I think it stems from the fact that these people cant get a girlfriend in the real world, so they begin to get feelings for the people that have a relationship with them. Its freaking pathetic really, and I hope anyone who wants to comit incest gets help or ends their worthless life so their family never knows how fucked up they are.
What if a sister wants to sleep with her brother?
__________________

Siggy: hohohohoho~ | AnimeHistory welcome to our blog ~ | Summer2009 early review
Under the radar series Summer2009: Kanamemo, GA Geijutsuka Art, NEEDLESS
Deathkillz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:53.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.