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Old 2006-01-14, 15:50   Link #141
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragnfly@Gamefaqs
However, to add more twists to this interresting discussion I once had a character design that was a brother/sister pair who were in love. However, they could not have children. It was meant to raise the question of, if you removed the genetic side effects then would such a relationship still be ok?
It's still incest. The reason I object to single generation incest has nothing to do with genetics. As I mentioned before, the genetic problems don't come up until it's become a multigenerational practice. Rather incestous relationships tend to be psychologically unhealthy for those involved. I don't have a source for that though, it's more opinion. I can't say I think it should be against the law either though. Being taboo should be enough of a discouragement in most cases.

From this view, incest doesn't rely on actual blood relations, so situations like nemu and junichi from Da Capo would still be incest.

The law doesn't favor this position though. Several states do allow incest if one or both parties are sterile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103
[That said, now getting back to the point: I think this is partially a misunderstanding, as the word "Oniichan" doesn't necessarily mean blood-brother. Example: In DC and DCSS, the "Oniichan" title Nemu called Junichi was really no more than the affectual version, as opposed to the Oniichan you'd mean for your blood brother.
In some cases it may be, but Nemu and Junichi were raised as brother and sister. That's how they saw each other. Just because they weren't actually related doesn't make the relationship any less incestous in my opinion. Of course my support for Kotori-chan may bias me in this case.
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Old 2006-01-14, 16:11   Link #142
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356
It's still incest. The reason I object to single generation incest has nothing to do with genetics. As I mentioned before, the genetic problems don't come up until it's become a multigenerational practice. Rather incestous relationships tend to be psychologically unhealthy for those involved. I don't have a source for that though, it's more opinion. I can't say I think it should be against the law either though. Being taboo should be enough of a discouragement in most cases.
In other words, the yuck factor. I don't know that I totally agree with it, but I certainly feel it. And I'm certainly not sold on the idea of kids living with potential sex partners and a relation of authority. (Like, for example, the younger sib has to obey the older. Kind of an open door to abuses.)

I think it can be fun to watch in anime, though.
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Old 2006-01-14, 16:31   Link #143
Ilpalazzo-sama
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Elfen lied irritated me a bit cause of that, nevertheless it was a good anime. I stopped watching Lamune at EP3 cause it was just sloooooooooooooooooooooow, but that is a different story. But yes, that's the reason i won't watch Koi Kaze, even though i like depressing drama animes, incest is a big no-no in real life, and for me, pretty much in animes too (EL is an exception, cause otherwise, it is a really awesome series). Too bad it sells well indeed. Yes, I'm a Christian...
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Old 2006-01-14, 17:20   Link #144
GundamZZ
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If you are Christian, you may not want to miss Angel Sanctuary. It's full of angel scandal and final show down with last boss, YHWH.
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Old 2006-01-14, 17:56   Link #145
Cythraul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilpalazzo-sama
Elfen lied irritated me a bit cause of that, nevertheless it was a good anime. I stopped watching Lamune at EP3 cause it was just sloooooooooooooooooooooow, but that is a different story. But yes, that's the reason i won't watch Koi Kaze, even though i like depressing drama animes, incest is a big no-no in real life, and for me, pretty much in animes too (EL is an exception, cause otherwise, it is a really awesome series). Too bad it sells well indeed. Yes, I'm a Christian...

So...if I'm reading this right, an anime filled with death, blood and severed limbs is awesome, except for some brief incest, which is sick and disgusting? Is this a christian thing?
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Old 2006-01-14, 18:08   Link #146
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Different things disgust different people. It has nothing to do with religion, but rather an individual's tastes. -_-
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Old 2006-01-14, 18:23   Link #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Zenigame
Different things disgust different people. It has nothing to do with religion, but rather an individual's tastes. -_-
If that's the case, what is the point of him stating that he is Christian?
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Old 2006-01-14, 20:37   Link #148
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The difference between elfen lied an most incest animes is that the entire show wasn't based around the incest premise. till about the 19th century it was common place to marry your cousin. BTW I'm catholic and I loved Elfen Lied...
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Old 2006-01-14, 21:10   Link #149
DarkCntry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cythraul
So...if I'm reading this right, an anime filled with death, blood and severed limbs is awesome, except for some brief incest, which is sick and disgusting? Is this a christian thing?
I wouldn't say it's Christian, but I would say it's odd nonetheless...

Just because you might not agree with certain subject matter doesn't mean you should damn the entire show without watching it. Incest is, as stated, taboo in almost every major society in the world, however as such, just watching something containing it doesn't mean that you promote it or practice it.

For example, I've played many an eroge that involved incest on some level, be it percieved or true, it's there...I've also watched several hundred anime following the same pattern, and even read many volumes of various mangas, none of which force me to change the belief that incest is any different than it was before I did all of the above. Some of these titles rank up on my favorites list, as a matter of fact. Kana ~Imouto~ and Koi Kaze are a couple of my favorite stories that rely on the incest to create the drama.

Do I condone it, no...do I criticise people who allow it, depends on the situation, however this is their decision and if both parties agree to it, that's their choice and no one else's to make.

Koi Kaze is perhaps one of the only anime I can safely say that uses incest to create drama, but doesn't glorify it or belittle it. The characters in the show do not understand why it is going on, they want to fight their urges, but we all should know that you cannot always win against what you feel in your heart is right.

Is incest right or wrong, to many yes...but it's no different than is homosexual relationships wrong. It comes down, ultimately to moral judgements and upbringing. Sure, you can play genetics on the whole inbreeding thing, but what I am talking about is simply how it is portrayed in these anime series, not in real-life applications.
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Old 2006-01-14, 21:26   Link #150
PEDOS_GRANDE
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why so much incest anime?

because anime fans are a filThy, stinking, unwasHed, morAlly bankrupt and degeNerate brand of pervert, that's whY (which is not to say all of you are. just most of you). hell, half the people here have loli avatars or sigs.
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Old 2006-01-14, 21:33   Link #151
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkCntry
Is incest right or wrong, to many yes...but it's no different than is homosexual relationships wrong. It comes down, ultimately to moral judgements and upbringing. Sure, you can play genetics on the whole inbreeding thing, but what I am talking about is simply how it is portrayed in these anime series, not in real-life applications.
Incest is wrong in every way, I mean look at your own house, would you like to marry your own mom or dad? Who knows on the near future the Japanese Otakus would be so fucked up that they decide to make an anime/manga out of this.....Oh WAIT they already HAD!

All of them like it because its " goes beyond boundaries", but be carefull what you wished for.

Bottom line = Incest is a no-no, and sorry but I just had to say this, Koi-Kaze was a loser's show with the author just trying to justify incest.
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Old 2006-01-14, 23:28   Link #152
bayoab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight
Incest is wrong in every way, I mean look at your own house, would you like to marry your own mom or dad? Who knows on the near future the Japanese Otakus would be so fucked up that they decide to make an anime/manga out of this.....Oh WAIT they already HAD!

All of them like it because its " goes beyond boundaries", but be carefull what you wished for.

Bottom line = Incest is a no-no, and sorry but I just had to say this, Koi-Kaze was a loser's show with the author just trying to justify incest.
Just because you think its wrong does not make it wrong. Fact is it does happen. Incest refers to anyone within your first cousin bloodwise (and TECHNICALLY step-relatives). I am not defending it either. There are more reasons that people would like it than it being taboo.

Also, apparently, incest sells. If not, they would not be putting it in. Geneon licensed Koi-kaze because they thought it would sell. From what little I have read on the show, I do know that Koi-kaze does not try to justify incest. (I have not seen more than the Geneon preview.)

Also, incest in stories has existed for a long time. Just look at Oedipus. This is nothing new to anime either. It has been around for a few seasons now. I am sure if we look in all of manga in general, we would find more examples of this already existing. If you do not like it, then tough; go watch something else or find another hobby. It seems you did enjoy watching all of Koi-kaze knowing what it is though...
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Old 2006-01-14, 23:37   Link #153
DaFool
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What I do find amazing with both Elfen Lied and Koi Kaze is how artfully they executed two disgusting subject matters.

- Psychotic killing through dismemberment
- Not only incest, but Statutatory Rape because of the age difference.

Reading the plot synopsis alone would cause any non-open-minded individual to nauseate. However the actual direction for both of these shows were warm-hearted. The genius was in trying to show the positive despite the desparate circumstances while at the same time not really trying to justify the main premise.
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Old 2006-01-14, 23:42   Link #154
Dark Lord Zenigame
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To be fair in Koi Kaze's case, it isn't statutory rape in Japan.
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Old 2006-01-15, 02:18   Link #155
TrueKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab
Also, incest in stories has existed for a long time. Just look at Oedipus. This is nothing new to anime either. It has been around for a few seasons now. I am sure if we look in all of manga in general, we would find more examples of this already existing. If you do not like it, then tough; go watch something else or find another hobby. It seems you did enjoy watching all of Koi-kaze knowing what it is though...
LMAO, first you said you're not defending it, but the next thing you mentioned Oedipus and all other crap to somewhat convinced that "it was already done so its okay" attitude shit. Just wow! congratulation! I guess I know where you stands now!

And btw I stopped watching Koi-Kaze in the middle, but I got told about the ending from my friend, and I was dissapointed, more reason to bash the series.
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Old 2006-01-15, 02:48   Link #156
Ilpalazzo-sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkCntry
I wouldn't say it's Christian, but I would say it's odd nonetheless...

Just because you might not agree with certain subject matter doesn't mean you should damn the entire show without watching it. Incest is, as stated, taboo in almost every major society in the world, however as such, just watching something containing it doesn't mean that you promote it or practice it.
Indeed. Just because I'm a christian, that does not mean I'm against action or blood (okay, EL reaches a new level there....) or whatsoever (as I like action movies too and such); but yes, I do against certain things, such as insict (okay, that's currently then only thing i can call off my head...the other thing can be witches i guess) but that does not mean I'll dump the whole series. But, if insict is the point of the series (Koi Kaze), of course I'm not gonna watch it. Anyway, the whole point, that ppl like it or not, it sells. Just like those damn reality shows and such.
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Old 2006-01-15, 04:36   Link #157
Cythraul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilpalazzo-sama
Indeed. Just because I'm a christian, that does not mean I'm against action or blood (okay, EL reaches a new level there....) or whatsoever (as I like action movies too and such); but yes, I do against certain things, such as insict (okay, that's currently then only thing i can call off my head...the other thing can be witches i guess) but that does not mean I'll dump the whole series. But, if insict is the point of the series (Koi Kaze), of course I'm not gonna watch it.
Ok, no matter how I read this, I just don't seem to get it. What exactly makes violence ok to enjoy but incest not? You mentioned previously that "incest is a big no-no in real life." Surely you agree that violence, especially on the level of EL, is a lot worse? So how come only the (lesser) wrongness of incest extends to fiction too? I'd be especially interested if you can argue this from a christian point of view, but anything better than a gut feeling will do.

Also, and this is completely off-topic but I have to ask, witches? This wouldn't, by any chance, include mahou shoujo shows? Or maybe Tweeny Witches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilpalazzo-sama
Anyway, the whole point, that ppl like it or not, it sells. Just like those damn reality shows and such.
I think the fact that it sells pretty much proves that people do, in fact, like it.
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Old 2006-01-15, 04:51   Link #158
Ilpalazzo-sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cythraul
Ok, no matter how I read this, I just don't seem to get it. What exactly makes violence ok to enjoy but incest not? You mentioned previously that "incest is a big no-no in real life." Surely you agree that violence, especially on the level of EL, is a lot worse? So how come only the (lesser) wrongness of incest extends to fiction too? I'd be especially interested if you can argue this from a christian point of view, but anything better than a gut feeling will do.

Also, and this is completely off-topic but I have to ask, witches? This wouldn't, by any chance, include mahou shoujo shows? Or maybe Tweeny Witches?
Okay, using the word christian was a bad idea... So, when I watch animes / movies I usually don't watch it from a christian point of view, but much more like general (yes, I guess tons of christians will disagree with this...but that's my way of thinking). Incest is partly a personal thing: I don't like it, and I've mentioned christianity because it disagrees with incest too. Witches is just another personal quirk for me, I just don't like it. Of course, I have limits too, for example I won't watch hentai and/or play bishoujo games.... (Though the h-game -> anime adaptations are good... but I will never understand how can Air TV be a h-game)
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Old 2006-01-15, 14:27   Link #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103
EXACTLY what he said.
あのね。。。I'm a GIRL.
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Old 2006-01-15, 14:48   Link #160
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lol what a thread...now I normally avoid mindless, senseless debates like this, but I just have to say something.

First of all, what are you watching? Anime? From where? Japan? Ok, so why do you think there are anime like this? Huh? Did it come a country where things like this are non-existant or just plain wrong? Think about it...

How many animation in the U.S. has incest versus How many anime in Japan. Next, think about why these are two different countries with very much different rules, very much different way of living, very much different in practically all aspect of living, life and what not. So it shouldn't be surprising why anime like this doesn't appeal to you,

BECAUSE IT WAS NEVER INTENDED FOR YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE

And Lamune is slow to fast minded people, remember that. Especially people who crave something too much only to be hit by a reverse expectation.
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