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Old 2011-03-18, 19:58   Link #221
Judoh
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I'd like to point out that even in Higurashi there were characters that didn't get development. Usually because their existence was arbitrary i.e most of the parents and teachers were just parents and teachers. In fact Mion's lack of a scenario was explained by how she's so easy going and doesn't actually have any depth. I expected Jessica to be the same in that respect, and episode 7 surprised me. For most of the characters if he didn't give them development I think it's probably either because he didn't see anything to add, or because he didn't have the time in his 7 expansions to do it. While also inventing scenarios AND giving Beatrice all her character development.
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Old 2011-03-18, 20:12   Link #222
naikou
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Adding on to Judoh's thoughts: Having undeveloped characters in your cast isn't a flaw by itself.

There are a lot of very well developed characters in Umineko (5 or 6 at least, maybe more), and that's plenty. It doesn't really make sense to say "Oh, Siesta 00 is undeveloped, what a horrible flaw," because Siesta 00 was given barely any screen time in the first place. It's not like she wasted space in Umineko (and she was mostly a joke character too, but you could use a similar argument for nearly all the undeveloped cast of Umineko).

Take any of your favorite pieces of literature or movies or whatever, and compare the number of developed characters to undeveloped. 90% of the time, you'll find that there are only a handful of well-developed characters (or maybe even just one). That's not a problem at all. In fact, trying to develop too many characters can itself turn into a flaw.
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Old 2011-03-18, 21:05   Link #223
Chron
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The point I'm trying to get across is that. If ryuukishi had spent less time on his soapbox and more on his characters, the work would have turned out better. I know beforehand how bad this is going to sound, but, he used his ability to generate characters as a crutch for the larger story he was going for. If you can see what i mean by that.
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Old 2011-03-18, 21:59   Link #224
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He characterised the people at the centre of the incident, as far as I can tell. The people who were less relevant got less screentime.
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Old 2011-03-18, 22:42   Link #225
naikou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chron View Post
The point I'm trying to get across is that. If ryuukishi had spent less time on his soapbox and more on his characters, the work would have turned out better. I know beforehand how bad this is going to sound, but, he used his ability to generate characters as a crutch for the larger story he was going for. If you can see what i mean by that.
So you're saying he made a lot of characters so that he could get away with writing a bad story?

I don't know about that, considering I don't think he tried to "get away with" anything. He very clearly wrote what he did intentionally (as per the essay I linked earlier), so it's not like he was hiding anything.

You don't use a crutch when your plan is to crash, basically.
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Old 2011-03-19, 10:41   Link #226
Kirroha
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
As a side note, imagine a story that is so confusing and messed up that make everyone give up in finding a logic in it and make them believe that it's just lame, imagine that the author is doing his best to make the readers believe that most scenes are worthless and bear no real meaning... and then in the end it shows how actually everything makes perfect sense and makes the readers feel ashamed for reaching those hasted conclusions.
Higurashi was actually like that for me. I completely gave up with it having any satisfying answer by the time I finished the 3rd question arc because it was so confusing, but it did. Granted it wasn't a full mystery, but the themes and answers were great. That was what made Higurashi seem like a miracle work to most people. The ability to make a story that's not just sensible but has good underlying themes out of a crazed whooplash.
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Old 2011-03-19, 11:26   Link #227
musouka
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Originally Posted by Chron View Post
The point I'm trying to get across is that. If ryuukishi had spent less time on his soapbox and more on his characters, the work would have turned out better.
Sorry, I think every character that needed development got ample amounts of it. People that were expecting The Life and Times of Hideyoshi were always going to be disappointed.
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Old 2011-03-19, 12:49   Link #228
Morhighan
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For me, Umineko was a satisfying experience. I didn't try to out-think it. I just took it at face value.
I often find that making expectations high leads to disappointment. (Much like idolizing someone, who you then meet. Since they aren't as wonderful as you thought, you get angry and blame them.)
The answers he wanted to give were all there. The fact that we're all (yes, me included) upset and have been following the book releases for so long is a testament to his power.
Sure, I was disappointed at the "answer." But after I got over it, I realized how much I enjoyed Umineko...and that I now don't know what to do with myself without waiting for the next installment.
If Ryukishi screwed up so badly, why bother being upset? He did something right, or else we wouldn't care.
Spoiler for Book 7 Spoiler:

Just my opinion. I do so hate seeing other people upset over it. Hope anyone who's upset feels better.
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Old 2011-03-19, 17:53   Link #229
Chron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naikou View Post
So you're saying he made a lot of characters so that he could get away with writing a bad story?

I don't know about that, considering I don't think he tried to "get away with" anything. He very clearly wrote what he did intentionally (as per the essay I linked earlier), so it's not like he was hiding anything.

You don't use a crutch when your plan is to crash, basically.
No, I'm saying he made up a bunch of interesting characters in place of writing a coherent story. And the essay doesn't excuse anything, it just highlights how full of crap Ryuukishi was when he came up with the concepts that he made the underpinnings of Umineko.

And as I said, he obviously didn't plan to crash, he just overestimated how clever he was. For crying out loud, that essay looks like one of my rants, and I at least try to avoid looking like I'm talking out of my ass when lecturing on about something.

For what I meant by "getting away with", I meant selling that anti-mystery crap. People were drawn so much into the characters that they'll take his preaching at face value, rather than applying critical thinking to it. With Umineko, he'll have succeeded in convincing people of the existence of "anti-mystery" where no such genre exists. A shared delusion.

Oh my lord, what he's done is create an entire imaginary genre through the same technique used to create the Golden Land. Son of a bitch, if that was his plan from the beginning, he's a god damn genius.

But he's still a hack. But a brilliant hack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Sorry, I think every character that needed development got ample amounts of it. People that were expecting The Life and Times of Hideyoshi were always going to be disappointed.
Battler is so developed it's a wonder we even know him as anything other than "traditional Shounen protagonist A". The protagonist is generally someone you expect to get some development over an 8 episode work that spans 4 years of development outside of him randomly reacting, acting badass, and then being made a complete fool of by the rest of the cast.
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Old 2011-03-19, 21:49   Link #230
Renall
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Sorry, I think every character that needed development got ample amounts of it. People that were expecting The Life and Times of Hideyoshi were always going to be disappointed.
But... I like Hideyoshi.

That aside, isn't that self-fulfilling prophecy to argue like that? "Well he got the development, and he definitely needed it" is the other side of the "he didn't get developed much, but it's not like he was that important anyway" coin.
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Old 2011-03-19, 21:56   Link #231
musouka
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
But... I like Hideyoshi.

That aside, isn't that self-fulfilling prophecy to argue like that? "Well he got the development, and he definitely needed it" is the other side of the "he didn't get developed much, but it's not like he was that important anyway" coin.
Not really. Any character that didn't have a large part to play in regards to the overall theme of the story had about as much development as they needed. Characters aren't actually living people, as I assume everyone here knows, they're there to further the purpose of the narrative. Umineko is basically the story of Beato. It makes sense that the man she loves would be the second-most developed character in the series, and the husband of a woman who was only really important to a magnitude of two removed is significantly less so.

In other words, focusing on Hideyoshi wouldn't have illuminated anything about Beato, her situation, or the world she left behind, so he didn't get any real focus.
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Old 2011-03-19, 23:52   Link #232
naikou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chron View Post
With Umineko, he'll have succeeded in convincing people of the existence of "anti-mystery" where no such genre exists. A shared delusion.
Genre? Anti-mystery and Anti-fantasy were referring to groups of people, not genres.

And anyway, if enough people believe a genre exists, then it does exist. That's all a genre is - a commonly agreed upon set of conventions with which to classify various works of art. But that's beside the point, because no one is arguing that anti-mystery is a genre.
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Old 2011-03-19, 23:57   Link #233
Kylon99
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Actually, there are some characters that have had very little development and yet we still have very good characterizations. Think about the people we've had very little background info about.. .say... Gouda.

He's now portrayed by fandom as a bit of a buffoon, a coward, and incompetent except in areas of cuisine. And as far as I've seen this is exactly the characterization from in the game that we all somehow picked up on. (Not to mention we all remember his name.)

Contrast this with say... Quigon Jinn.. what was he like, if you even remember his name?


How about the small cameo Christopher Walken had in Pulp Fiction, where he carefully explained for about 5 mins where he kept one of the character's father's antique pocket watch? I don't remember the name, but I remember that character. There was no development there what-so-ever and he disappeared off screen and never returned...
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Old 2011-03-20, 01:20   Link #234
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
In other words, focusing on Hideyoshi wouldn't have illuminated anything about Beato, her situation, or the world she left behind, so he didn't get any real focus.
Yeah but he could have been the culprit. Any of them could have been.

And how do you know, anyway? We don't really get to see a lot of her interactions with family members over the years. It's equally possible any of those "undeveloped" people were influential on her. The mere fact that it doesn't appear in the text doesn't mean it never happened.
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Old 2011-03-20, 01:22   Link #235
naikou
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If it was important, then Ryukishi would have shown it happening, he's the one who made up the whole universe.

And Kylon99's statement about characterization is dead on. I'm disappointed I didn't raise that point myself.
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Old 2011-03-20, 01:49   Link #236
Renall
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If it was important, then Ryukishi would have shown it happening, he's the one who made up the whole universe.
I thought you said the author was dead? Who cares what he thinks is important. Maybe I think Beatrice's opinions on the suits worn by the Ushiromiya men is critical to understanding her heart. Who are you to tell me otherwise? Maybe I don't feel like I got the complete picture to my satisfaction from what the author himself provided. Who is he to keep that information from me? I'll bet he doesn't even know where to get a plus-size mustard suit in Japan in 1986.
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This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2011-03-20, 01:58   Link #237
naikou
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"Author is dead" means you get to make up what the work means not what the work is. That is still firmly in the domain of the author, heh.

I mean... you're not really suggesting we start criticizing authors for not focusing on minor aspects of their stories which they themselves didn't find important? "Gone with the Wind" was so bad, there needed to be more detailed descriptions about civil war era canons! It could have been important to Scarlett's character!
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Old 2011-03-20, 02:09   Link #238
Renall
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"Author is dead" means you get to make up what the work means not what the work is. That is still firmly in the domain of the author, heh.
Orrrrrrrrrrrr is it? He rather explicitly authorized, nay, charged us with participating in ep6.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2011-03-20, 02:14   Link #239
naikou
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Very well then, I suggest you write poor Hideyoshi the character development he so dearly deserves and send your story in to Ryukishi. I'm sure we'll soon be reading "When the Fat Men Cry: My Struggles with Weight Loss and Smoking Addiction".
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Old 2011-03-20, 11:25   Link #240
musouka
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Yeah but he could have been the culprit. Any of them could have been.
Who cares? The "true culprit" is pretty unimportant in the grand scheme of Umineko. The point isn't who did it, the point is who and what had the most impact on Beato.
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