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Old 2012-02-06, 13:22   Link #321
Drifloon
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and that most people are thrown off by the unconventional art (which in my opinion is absolutely perfect in every shape and way).
Finally! I was starting to think I was the only one in the world who actually liked Umineko's art style. It seriously never even occurred to me that it might be hated until I started looking at forums after I finished the game and everyone was saying how awful it was. I just don't see how anyone could be disappointed by Umineko's art after Higurashi.
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Old 2012-02-06, 13:52   Link #322
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Finally! I was starting to think I was the only one in the world who actually liked Umineko's art style. It seriously never even occurred to me that it might be hated until I started looking at forums after I finished the game and everyone was saying how awful it was. I just don't see how anyone could be disappointed by Umineko's art after Higurashi.
Watch your words about Higurashi's awesome art! : P
To be honest, after coming from the anime's EP2 to the original, I was honestly disgusted with the art, but after it started growing on me, I begun appreciating it and realized that I'm completely in love with it. It's very simplistic in sight, which brings the aura of a fairy-tale, making for an enjoyable combination with the serious storyline, and their expressions are almost like talking to you! Higurashi's art was also good, though I can see how it has improved in Umineko, I absolutely love its colors.
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Old 2012-02-06, 14:24   Link #323
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Watch your words about Higurashi's awesome art! : P
To be honest, after coming from the anime's EP2 to the original, I was honestly disgusted with the art, but after it started growing on me, I begun appreciating it and realized that I'm completely in love with it. It's very simplistic in sight, which brings the aura of a fairy-tale, making for an enjoyable combination with the serious storyline, and their expressions are almost like talking to you! Higurashi's art was also good, though I can see how it has improved in Umineko, I absolutely love its colors.
Yes the art is not so horrible but,, when i compare them to the ps3 versions... i have to say that ryu's art sucks... but soo fits umineko. i loved ryu's art.. until i got nocturne. lol . what i hate is his awful backgrounds.
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Old 2012-02-06, 14:40   Link #324
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Yes the art is not so horrible but,, when i compare them to the ps3 versions... i have to say that ryu's art sucks... but soo fits umineko. i loved ryu's art.. until i got nocturne. lol . what i hate is his awful backgrounds.
As a shock as that may come to most people, I believe Ryukishi's art is by far superior to Alchemist's, simply because Alchemist's is too common and very little expressive in comparison to Ryukishi's. It may be more proffesional, have better colors and lineart, but it's only purpose is to look fancy. As much as I love both arts, I'd definitely go with Ryukishi's.

Second, I woulnd't call the backgrounds horrible. On the contrary, I like the fact that photos are used, becaue it somehow gives an artistic feeling to it.
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Old 2012-02-06, 14:45   Link #325
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
As a shock as that may come to most people, I believe Ryukishi's art is by far superior to Alchemist's, simply because Alchemist's is too common and very little expressive in comparison to Ryukishi's. It may be more proffesional, have better colors and lineart, but it's only purpose is to look fancy. As much as I love both arts, I'd definitely go with Ryukishi's.

Second, I woulnd't call the backgrounds horrible. On the contrary, I like the fact that photos are used, becaue it somehow gives an artistic feeling to it.
Naah cant agree with you on BG part. i completly hate them .XD but yout right alchemists purpose was to make it look facny and they did it. they made it look fancy. XD im kinda dissapointed on CG's tho. a lot of missed scenes.
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Old 2012-02-06, 14:51   Link #326
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Maybe they did make it look fancy, but they still couldn't surpass the original XD.
Well, I didn't expect them to make a CG for each and every single one of the countless awesome scenes in Umineko, but after I saw Battler punching Bern hard, I don't care if I die (as much as I adore that blue-haired little bitch!!!!)

*ahem*
But seriously, the CGs weren't really satisfying, since most of them centered around battle scenes and very few from those that I saw depicted any of the crucial scenes that had visual material in depth. Again, the simplicity of the original is what makes it a masterpiece.
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Old 2012-02-06, 15:49   Link #327
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I can also see it too, but that's not the series fault, more like the people's for being thickheaded.
That's not really a fair assessment. There are legitimate grievances people can have with EP8's ending.
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Old 2012-02-06, 17:40   Link #328
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That's not really a fair assessment. There are legitimate grievances people can have with EP8's ending.
This.
I personally knew that this would be closure for the series, not the mystery. I was okay with this, since I felt it was handled well.
The open-endedness of the conclusion (about the nature of the universe of the story, once again not of the mystery aspect) is one thing I really liked.
Spoiler for EP8:


It leaves a lot of thinking behind and I like that. It depends how you look at it.

Granted, I can see why many hated EP8. It's like, climactic blue-balls if you were actually interested in the truth of R-Prime. An entire series of buildup with no answer. So, you are of course justified in not being satisfied.

Regarding the art: the art style does turn people away, but Ryukishi nails the most important part.
The faces.
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Old 2012-02-06, 21:58   Link #329
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This.
I personally knew that this would be closure for the series, not the mystery. I was okay with this, since I felt it was handled well.
The open-endedness of the conclusion (about the nature of the universe of the story, once again not of the mystery aspect) is one thing I really liked.
Spoiler for EP8:


It leaves a lot of thinking behind and I like that. It depends how you look at it.

Granted, I can see why many hated EP8. It's like, climactic blue-balls if you were actually interested in the truth of R-Prime. An entire series of buildup with no answer. So, you are of course justified in not being satisfied.

Regarding the art: the art style does turn people away, but Ryukishi nails the most important part.
The faces.
Personally, since I haven't yet lost interest in this series, I'm happy that it still gives me plenty of things to think about. Usually, when it comes to stories, you go through the material, you enjoy it, you might discuss it a little with fellow fans or whatever, but it generally ends there... At least for me. And if I still like the series when I reach that point, it leaves me a bit upset. So I enjoy the opportunities for endless speculation that Umineko gives me, since I absolutely love this series.

It would have made me sad if I had to move on when I finished EP8.

I can see why people would be unsatisfied with the lack of an answer though. After all, when I sometimes think that I may not be able to answer all of the questions that are important to me, it leaves me a bit unsatisfied too.
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Old 2012-02-06, 22:19   Link #330
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I can see why people would be unsatisfied with the lack of an answer though. After all, when I sometimes think that I may not be able to answer all of the questions that are important to me, it leaves me a bit unsatisfied too.
So find an answer that satisfies you. When you're done with the series, read it again with your knowledge of the game, and you should be able to find the answer. The mystery was made to be solvable, after all.
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Old 2012-02-06, 22:27   Link #331
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So find an answer that satisfies you. When you're done with the series, read it again with your knowledge of the game, and you should be able to find the answer. The mystery was made to be solvable, after all.
Planning on it. And I know that it's solvable, I never doubted that, the only question is how much effort it will take to reach the answer.
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Old 2012-02-07, 09:02   Link #332
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That's not really a fair assessment. There are legitimate grievances people can have with EP8's ending.
Obviously, but that relies in taste, which varies from person to person. What I was talking about is the tendency of people to whine for the lack of answers, when clearly the mystery has been answered. It seems many people make the mistaken assumption that The Book of The Single Truth contained the answer to the mystery, while clearly, Prime and Answer are two separate things. The mysteries we were challenged to solve were answered, even in a roundabout way, that's why I think the people who complain about EP8 not giving an answer are those who didn't bother to thik. The author is not obligated to expose the contents of Prime to give out answers, because they have already be given in EP7. Yet still, I can see how that could dissatisfy many people, but in fact, I think the purpose of not showing it shows how little it actually matters.



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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Granted, I can see why many hated EP8. It's like, climactic blue-balls if you were actually interested in the truth of R-Prime. An entire series of buildup with no answer. So, you are of course justified in not being satisfied.

Regarding the art: the art style does turn people away, but Ryukishi nails the most important part.
The faces.
Saying that it was a buildup with no answer is an unfair accusations. Though I'm not really interested in Prime, I can see how it could be a middle finger to those who are. But still, I think the important thing is to think about what does the author want to convey with his action of keeping it forever in the shadows?

Regarding the art: Erika/Beato/Bernkastel's troll faces: True masterpiece!


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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
Personally, since I haven't yet lost interest in this series, I'm happy that it still gives me plenty of things to think about. Usually, when it comes to stories, you go through the material, you enjoy it, you might discuss it a little with fellow fans or whatever, but it generally ends there... At least for me. And if I still like the series when I reach that point, it leaves me a bit upset. So I enjoy the opportunities for endless speculation that Umineko gives me, since I absolutely love this series.

It would have made me sad if I had to move on when I finished EP8.

I can see why people would be unsatisfied with the lack of an answer though. After all, when I sometimes think that I may not be able to answer all of the questions that are important to me, it leaves me a bit unsatisfied too.
Indeed. One of the best parts of Umineko is that it's open for thinking even after handing out the answer. But if Prime was revealed, this would be over, right? The Cat Box would end forever, being opened and left out of use. I can understand how many people can be upset over that, but they can't say they are upset about the lack of an answer, because that just means they need to think more.

The fact that we can never be absolutely sure does concern me too, but when you reach the truth for real, you do know it.

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So find an answer that satisfies you. When you're done with the series, read it again with your knowledge of the game, and you should be able to find the answer. The mystery was made to be solvable, after all.
I agree, and that happens exactly because the truth of what happened on that day shall forever remain hidden (which does not mean the mysteries weren't properly answered, by the way).
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Old 2012-02-07, 12:40   Link #333
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Obviously, but that relies in taste, which varies from person to person. What I was talking about is the tendency of people to whine for the lack of answers, when clearly the mystery has been answered. It seems many people make the mistaken assumption that The Book of The Single Truth contained the answer to the mystery, while clearly, Prime and Answer are two separate things. The mysteries we were challenged to solve were answered, even in a roundabout way, that's why I think the people who complain about EP8 not giving an answer are those who didn't bother to thik. The author is not obligated to expose the contents of Prime to give out answers, because they have already be given in EP7. Yet still, I can see how that could dissatisfy many people, but in fact, I think the purpose of not showing it shows how little it actually matters.
That's an interesting point of view. It's unfortunate that none of it is true. For an incredibly nebulous definition of an "answer," perhaps, but answers actually solve things in a convincing and clear fashion. "It might have been this, but I'unno what do you think?" is not an answer.

Also, not all of the gameboard mysteries were addressed. We were given some idea of things, but part of ep2 had to be answered in an interview and no part of ep4 was ever even talked about. It's clear we were meant to find an answer there in some degree of greater detail, but then we got nothing. Why portray the death order as important only to later give no information about it whatsoever?

I'd be hesitant to talk about what you think people wanted out of the story when I'm not sure you actually know what a lot of people were expecting out of it.
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Saying that it was a buildup with no answer is an unfair accusations. Though I'm not really interested in Prime, I can see how it could be a middle finger to those who are. But still, I think the important thing is to think about what does the author want to convey with his action of keeping it forever in the shadows?
That he's an asshole, apparently. His justification for an act of moral evil was incomprehensible and he both lionized the villainous and demonized anyone who would want the answer he spent so long teasing about, for any reason. He adores the selfish and mocks the notion that anyone would ever desire information for anything but their own personal ends.

Ryukishi is an advocate of allowing people to get away with their crimes if it would - or merely might - inconvenience those left behind. For this reason alone, even if his conclusion were perfectly realized (I don't personally think it was), his work should not be applauded. Indeed, it disgusts me and I condemn it.
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Indeed. One of the best parts of Umineko is that it's open for thinking even after handing out the answer. But if Prime was revealed, this would be over, right? The Cat Box would end forever, being opened and left out of use. I can understand how many people can be upset over that, but they can't say they are upset about the lack of an answer, because that just means they need to think more.
I wasted four years of time and effort reading this thing in fits and starts, and I don't really want to waste the rest of my life wondering "Huh, I wonder what actually happened in the end, in Umineko?" Speculation and fanworks are fine; I think ep6 even encouraged this (before ep8 called us assholes for it). But there's no reason knowing the truth would somehow put an end to this. Knowing the end of Star Wars or Harry Potter's never stopped anybody from writing stuff about it.
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The fact that we can never be absolutely sure does concern me too, but when you reach the truth for real, you do know it.
You seem quite confident in that. Since that must mean you know the truth for real, tell me what it is.
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I agree, and that happens exactly because the truth of what happened on that day shall forever remain hidden (which does not mean the mysteries weren't properly answered, by the way).
But they weren't. There's dozens of mysteries-and/or-plotholes that were never addressed. All anyone ever does is handwave them and say "they weren't important." Then why were they in there at all?
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Old 2012-02-07, 13:02   Link #334
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Old 2012-02-07, 13:06   Link #335
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Actually, when he writes something like this, he's pretty much obligated to properly address these issues. And not in interviews. In the actual text. I've learned more about what he intended from his interviews than from the actual work. If he's willing to reveal all of that (in other words not planning to leave it a secret), why isn't it in the text already?
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Old 2012-02-07, 14:22   Link #336
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
What I was talking about is the tendency of people to whine for the lack of answers, when clearly the mystery has been answered. It seems many people make the mistaken assumption that The Book of The Single Truth contained the answer to the mystery, while clearly, Prime and Answer are two separate things.
I don't think anybody made that assumption.
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Old 2012-02-07, 15:42   Link #337
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I know in the interview, Ryu said something about "when you arrive at the answer, you will know that it is the right answer for sure", or something like that.

But i don't understand if he means the gameboards, or prime

There are still so many speculations. We don't even clearly know the number of survivors of the incident. Some say "Ikuko=Yasuda! So there are 3 survivors!", while others say "Ikuko=RandomStranger! There are only 2 survivors!". If we want to figure out prime, then we must at least be able access this one information, but apperantly there are hints for both thoeries and none can be refuted completly... I don't think we are really able to reach the answer about prime. I could make many theories and "reconstructions of what happened", but all of them would be not more worth than any other of Umineko's forgeries.

HELL! I could even claim that Yasuda wasn't even present on rokkenjima at the time of the incident and was already Ikuko for months or even years. No way to refute that...
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Old 2012-02-07, 15:59   Link #338
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That's an interesting point of view. It's unfortunate that none of it is true. For an incredibly nebulous definition of an "answer," perhaps, but answers actually solve things in a convincing and clear fashion. "It might have been this, but I'unno what do you think?" is not an answer.
First of all, I'll skip that you rudely disregard my point of view completely and with a touch of sarcasm, and I respond:

I can't argue that Umineko's reply was clear, but I can guarantee it did exist. It was purposely left vague, so that the readers who didn't bother to think, or weren't yet at the truth, wouldn't be able to see it, but would be given a push towards it. If you think there was no answer, then tell me please, what was EP7?

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That he's an asshole, apparently. His justification for an act of moral evil was incomprehensible and he both lionized the villainous and demonized anyone who would want the answer he spent so long teasing about, for any reason. He adores the selfish and mocks the notion that anyone would ever desire information for anything but their own personal ends.
Um...No, it doesn't mean that. I don't think the morale to be derived from Umineko is that immoral people are to be admired, neither do I consider anyone of Umineko's characters villainous (excluding Bern, Erika e.t.c.). Of course, opinions on that may vary, that's just my own view. Second of all, since the answer was given in EP7, there was no point in looking for them in EP8. The goats devouring the Golden Land weren't there for the purpose of mocking the readers, rather than the people of the future WITHIN the story that desired a tragedy in the island so badly. However, I see how in some cases Ryukishi07 may put them in parallel with existing theories and opinions, though not once did I perceive it as mockery to all of us who have been faithful to the series until the end.

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Ryukishi is an advocate of allowing people to get away with their crimes if it would - or merely might - inconvenience those left behind. For this reason alone, even if his conclusion were perfectly realized (I don't personally think it was), his work should not be applauded. Indeed, it disgusts me and I condemn it.
What are you talking about? Exactly, who got away with their crimes and how? Oh, and by the way, if you condemn Umineko so much, what's with this avatar?

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I wasted four years of time and effort reading this thing in fits and starts, and I don't really want to waste the rest of my life wondering "Huh, I wonder what actually happened in the end, in Umineko?" Speculation and fanworks are fine; I think ep6 even encouraged this (before ep8 called us assholes for it). But there's no reason knowing the truth would somehow put an end to this. Knowing the end of Star Wars or Harry Potter's never stopped anybody from writing stuff about it.
First of all, I think it's at least blashemy to link a masterpiece like Umineko with Harry Potter....

I never said you should worry about Umineko for the rest of your life, that would be a plain waste of time, regardless of how much you may have enjoyed one series. All I said is, possibilities like Beato's games are still open for debade without one single truth, and have not been demolished to its light, which I do not find bothersome in the slightest. And you did find out the end, did you not? EP8 was exactly it. I really cannot see what there is to complain about. The mystery you thought about so much was asnwered all in EP7. Personally, I never really expected an answer out of EP8.

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You seem quite confident in that. Since that must mean you know the truth for real, tell me what it is.
For some reason, I took that comment as offensive. Obviously, I cannot boast that I have found the truth without having done so, neither can I say I can really understand absolutely everything about Umineko. In fact I did reason it out close to the end of EP5, and had my answer confirmed in EP7. I detect a trace mockery and doubt of the hard thinking it took to reach that answer, so pardon me for not feel like sharing that with you.

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But they weren't. There's dozens of mysteries-and/or-plotholes that were never addressed. All anyone ever does is handwave them and say "they weren't important." Then why were they in there at all?
Of course I can't argue Umineko was perfect in its entirety. There are imperfections, though I did not bother myself with such technical matters. As for plot holes, I do not remember encoutering those, care to name a few?

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Actually, when he writes something like this, he's pretty much obligated to properly address these issues. And not in interviews. In the actual text. I've learned more about what he intended from his interviews than from the actual work. If he's willing to reveal all of that (in other words not planning to leave it a secret), why isn't it in the text already?
Maybe the answers to the closed rooms individually were far too vague, to that, I agree. For example, I didn't figure out the deaths of George, Shannon and Gohda in Natsuhi's locked room in EP2 until I read it in the interview, but I want to believe that hints did exist for us to reach that conclusion.

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I don't think anybody made that assumption.
In that case, where did everybody see that lack of an answer?
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Old 2012-02-07, 16:28   Link #339
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First of all, I'll skip that you rudely disregard my point of view completely and with a touch of sarcasm, and I respond:

I can't argue that Umineko's reply was clear, but I can guarantee it did exist. It was purposely left vague, so that the readers who didn't bother to think, or weren't yet at the truth, wouldn't be able to see it, but would be given a push towards it. If you think there was no answer, then tell me please, what was EP7?
That sounds like so much patronizing to me, for an individual who can't actually claim to know what the answer is to talk down to others and assure them that the answer exists. You don't know that. You're operating off the same information the rest of us have, all of which originates from the author. And the author has not been the most consistent.

Requiem is not an answer. It's one part characterization and one part some solutions to certain mysteries in ep1-4. Note, not all of them: Will never touches on the end of ep3 or any of ep4, and Ryukishi had to explain part of ep2 in an interview. For all its harping on motive, it doesn't actually provide one. If you believe ep7 provides anywhere near sufficient understanding of motive for any individual to commit mass murder (nevermind it muddies the waters with two competing theories), I question what you would not consider suitable justification for such a crime.

Ryukishi can claim as much as he likes that ep7 was "the end of the mystery." He's flat wrong, except in the sense that he means the "mystery fictions." There are mysteries in Umineko that remain, even if they are not captial-M "Mysteries."
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Um...No, it doesn't mean that. I don't think the morale to be derived from Umineko is that immoral people are to be admired, neither do I consider anyone of Umineko's characters villainous (excluding Bern, Erika e.t.c.). Of course, opinions on that may vary, that's just my own view. Second of all, since the answer was given in EP7, there was no point in looking for them in EP8. The goats devouring the Golden Land weren't there for the purpose of mocking the readers, rather than the people of the future WITHIN the story that desired a tragedy in the island so badly. However, I see how in some cases Ryukishi07 may put them in parallel with existing theories and opinions, though not once did I perceive it as mockery to all of us who have been faithful to the series until the end.
Again with your patronizing attitude. You define by exclusion, considering yourself part of the "faithful" and backhandedly suggesting that other people just "didn't think" or "didn't get it." That attitude makes your opinions suspect, as it makes them appear to have no actual content.

You might not consider the individuals to be villainous because the author has asked you to accept the paradigm that "good guys" do good things and that because BATTLER et al are the good guys in opposition to the goats, to Bern, to Featherine, etc., that their position must be morally correct. Whether or not you actually concluded that aside, it isn't the case. That isn't to say Bern is right. It's just that everyone is wrong. But while Bern is, to some extent, an opportunistic sadist, she at least is not of the inclination to accept a murderer and pardon their crimes. BATTLER is. There is simply no way around this unless he has some even more critical unselfish motive, none of which is presented.

Ryukishi insulted by exclusion the existence of points of view which would support the notion that finding or revealing the truth is a good idea for unselfish or proper reasons. There is no fine line between the selfish forces of concealment and ravenous irresponsible theories. It's anti-academic, anti-intellectual, and anti-justice. And it revels in this. Cynically, I'd say it does this for the sole purpose of stirring argument, exactly like the Shkanon teasing, which existed only for that very reason.
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What are you talking about? Exactly, who got away with their crimes and how?
That's precisely what we don't know. If it was an accident, no one involved deserves to be viewed with suspicion. If it was a murder, then someone among the dead (or "dead") is guilty and their crime should be brought to light. As it is, everyone who died at Rokkenjima is viewed as a "victim." If there was a crime involved, at least one person is being improperly viewed as such, and due to the suspicions, almost a dozen or more people are being improperly viewed as potential criminals.

This is wrong. Anyone who knows the truth - if anyone does - has the moral obligaton to correct this. And seeking to know the truth for these reasons is morally right.
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And you did find out the end, did you not? EP8 was exactly it. I really cannot see what there is to complain about. The mystery you thought about so much was asnwered all in EP7. Personally, I never really expected an answer out of EP8.
No, actually. You have no idea what "mystery" I'm interested in or have thought about so much. I'm very interested in the behind-the-scenes puzzle which Ryukishi appeared to be hinting at for so many years. Not simply the whodunnit, but the process of approaching a world from fictionalized accounts attempting to reconstruct it. That process was initiated, developed, strongly suggested to be of grave importance... and abandoned.

And I'll always wonder why the hell he put so much effort into something he never actually wanted to do anything with.
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For some reason, I took that comment as offensive. Obviously, I cannot boast that I have found the truth without having done so, neither can I say I can really understand absolutely everything about Umineko. In fact I did reason it out close to the end of EP5, and had my answer confirmed in EP7. I detect a trace mockery and doubt of the hard thinking it took to reach that answer, so pardon me for not feel like sharing that with you.
So you know nothing. Intellectual cowardice is something that does not sit well with me. I admit that I was being sarcastic, but your point was ludicrous enough to merit the sarcasm. You very much implied that you do know the answer. As I happen to know that there is almost zero chance that you actually do (you are not, to my knowledge, Ryukishi, nor have you claimed to have any intimate and special contact with him), as is true of any of us, I am confident that such an implication is a lie.

Hiding behind the notion that I have somehow offended you to the point that you don't want to share with me actually underscores the moral childishness of Umineko itself in deciding that truth ought be hidden: You're apparently annoyed at me enough that, assuming you did know The Answer to Umineko, you'd refuse to tell anyone just so I wouldn't know it. The work concludes along similar things: BATTLER is selfish, Ange is selfish, and that selfishness is, to them, more important than justice or truth.
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Of course I can't argue Umineko was perfect in its entirety. There are imperfections, though I did not bother myself with such technical matters. As for plot holes, I do not remember encoutering those, care to name a few?
AuraTwilight has a list somewhere and no doubt will be right along with it at some point in the near future. It's more plot holes/loose ends than strictly flaws in the narrative, but that's not to say there are none.
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Old 2012-02-07, 17:09   Link #340
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As I happen to know that there is almost zero chance that you actually do (you are not, to my knowledge, Ryukishi, nor have you claimed to have any intimate and special contact with him), as is true of any of us, I am confident that such an implication is a lie.
Hell, I actually DO have a special contact with Ryukishi, to the point where he and I hashed out some concepts together to use in mutual future works.

I STILL have no idea what he was trying to say with Umineko, nor is there any semblance of a legitimate 'answer' that can be discerned, because there's no Answer Key.

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AuraTwilight has a list somewhere and no doubt will be right along with it at some point in the near future. It's more plot holes/loose ends than strictly flaws in the narrative, but that's not to say there are none.
I'll have to find the list, but oh man, just off the top of my head...

1. So, Kinzo. We have absolutely no reliable information about this man whatsoever. Even his own personal testimonies are highly suspect of being embellished and altered and distorted. Speaking of which, by the way, Kinzo being dead before the incident was a pretty awesome plot twist. It impressed just about everyone. Too bad Ryukishi ignores it in EP7 onward. Too bad EP5 was wasted arguing about something we already know to be true.

Which brings me to my next point. In Chiru, the Game stops making sense. Suddenly Red Truth needs evidence? Why? Why is there a kangaroo court? Why does Battler even need to put up with these stupid bitches? They don't know anything and they have no special authority. Why is he treating their stupid ass game as anything more than fanfiction? Why can Dlanor just fucking cheat? What the hell was up with the Parlor Scene?

2. Genji. Hey man. Wanna tell us your backstory? Like why you owe Kinzo your life, or why you consider yourself furniture, or like...anything? No? Okay, cool. Whatever.

3. Nanjo. What was with the sick granddaughter? That plot thread never went anywhere.

Speaking of that, how come we get sprites, names, and scenes with Nanjo's and Kumasawa's kids, who were only in one damn scene, but didn't get ANY information on Grandma Ushiromiya or Asumu? They were KIND OF important. Asumu at the least was sort of a defining backround element.

Poor Grandma didn't even get to do anything. She was suspicious of Kinzo, though, and that never went anywhere. Actually hold on a minute.

4. Kuwadorian Beatrice. So like...how did she never notice she was pregnant? Why is she still so childish after delivering a baby? How come she never noticed Kinzo coming and going through his secret passage? Did she ever try and follow him, or what? Hell, what does the inside of the Kuwadorian even look like? Like what did Eva see? That would've been interesting. Oh well.

5. Oh hey Hideyoshi. So um. Do we learn anything about you? Guess not. Oh well. Go hang out with Genji.

6. George. You are suspicious and creepy and sinister-seeming as all HELL. Where the hell was Ryukishi going with that? Like, at all?

7. Rudolf, why the hell did you do the baby switch? How the hell did two girls have the same delivery day? Did you fuck them at the same time? How the hell did they not notice you switched their babies, anyway? And I guess I can understand not telling Battler, but why didn't you tell Kyrie when you married her? Actually hold the phone, man, you were dating Kyrie before you even met Asumu, according to her testimony. Why did you marry the latter?

8. Speaking of, hey Battler. Did you REALLY forget Yasu or not? Why did you really return, because you don't in Lion's world. What were you up to all this time, anyway? And how come your personality did a complete 180 when you became a wizard? You were Truthy McGee until suddenly you learned it and then you became a hypocritical asshole.

9. Ange. Ange isn't consistent from scene to scene, man. She remembers shit from the future and sideways and forgets and re-remembers and keeps fucking dying. Hey wait a minute people die all the time in the Meta-World, so why was your first death so fucking dramatic? Apparently you were just fine later and then you wouldn't quit dying and coming back. Make up your fucking mind.

Also, why are you the only person who gets to make a choice? Yea it's all well and good that you were allowed to CHOOSE whether or not you got to use that key. How about...you know....ANY OF THE OTHER VICTIMS' RELATIVES? And what was the deal with your entire EP4 journey? Apparently it was never real, so was the information real? Did Touya write that shit down, or what? Also how the hell did you get Maria's diary?

10. The Meta-World, by the way. So is it in the stories? Or in Battler's head, or real, or what? This isn't necessarily a plot hole in the third option, but it creates huge plot holes in the first two options. For instance, if it's in his head, then why the huge overcomplicated narrative? Like why is Touya pretending to be a wizard with the tsundere hots for his daughter-clone, and what does it mean when she goes off to have her own adventure?

11. And what does the Will/Lion thing mean? Wait a fucking minute, how did Lambdadelta rescue those two? What the hell?

12. What the fuck is up with Bern by the way? I mean like, the implication is that you're mad at Yasu for comparing her suffering to a thousand years, but you didn't KNOW the truth of Rokkenjima, so like...what exactly did you come into the story knowing, initially? Also, why are you such a bitch? It doesn't even make sense at times. I mean you're kind of falling into a trap, here. Shouldn't you find Yasu's tragedy being a certainty in all worlds a BAD thing?

Also why does Battler still want to be friends with you after all the shit you've done to his sister? Battler's a fucking asshole.

13. What do Detective's Authority and Spectator's Authority actually do? What the fuck is the Gold Truth? How come Beatrice can totally lie in the Red? Because she does, by the way.

14. "We're talking about World Peace here." Yea, what was this about? Anyone? This could really explain a lot, so is there something to this? Or is it just a cocktease like 90% of this novel?

15. Hey Kumasawa. You were being all enigmatic and all-knowing seeming in the first two episodes. Then the narrative implied you were the original Beatrice. Then it just sort of drops that, but still makes you all important. What are you to Kinzo? Why does he trust you so damn much?

16. Shkanon. Just....just Shkanon.

17. So what the hell is the deal with Ikuko? Is she magic because holy shit she is immune to aging.

18. The boiler room has two doors. lol EP3 First Twilight is destroyed.

19. Yasu, seriously, what the fuck is your motive? Are you even the criminal? Nothing you do makes sense. You're one giant fucking mes of plotholes.

I'll stop here. 19 is all symbolic and shit and it's more than enough to prove my point.
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