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Old 2012-02-08, 17:32   Link #361
rogerpepitone
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Another reason for Rudolf not divorcing Asumu is that he had no grounds for it. Asumu wouldn't agree to it, and he'd get stuck with a terrible settlement if he tried to go through the courts.

I think that "to get Battler to break his ties with the Ushiromiyas, and for Rudolf not just to drag him home, but which can eventually be forgiven" is adequate narrative reason for Asumu's existence.

Also, with all the meta scenes, he made a point of criticizing readers who simply ignore them, that every meta scene is there for a reason.

When he expects readers to go over his text to that degree, he'd better show appropriate consistency. "He forgot" is not an acceptable answer. He should have planned out what he's going to do in each Episode before releasing the first, and hired an editor.
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Old 2012-02-08, 17:41   Link #362
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Another reason for Rudolf not divorcing Asumu is that he had no grounds for it. Asumu wouldn't agree to it, and he'd get stuck with a terrible settlement if he tried to go through the courts.

I think that "to get Battler to break his ties with the Ushiromiyas, and for Rudolf not just to drag him home, but which can eventually be forgiven" is adequate narrative reason for Asumu's existence.

Also, with all the meta scenes, he made a point of criticizing readers who simply ignore them, that every meta scene is there for a reason.

When he expects readers to go over his text to that degree, he'd better show appropriate consistency. "He forgot" is not an acceptable answer. He should have planned out what he's going to do in each Episode before releasing the first, and hired an editor.
I think it'd be pretty hard to write that entire work without forgetting something, even if it's a single line. But yes, forgetting something isn't something condonable. I'm just saying it's within the realm of possibility.

It's far more likely that he shifted gears midway. We know that he rewrote EP3 ("Land of the Golden Witch") due to readers struggling with EP2. It's a flaw of having a serial work like this. Maybe he planned to do something, but that didn't make it into the final work. It could lead to some things we deem 'useless info' in the beginning arcs.

Edit: I don't remember where I read that about Land, but if it's wrong please correct me.
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Old 2012-02-08, 17:43   Link #363
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Also, this is why professional writers have fucking editors. You ARE making a large universe, so suspension of disbelief isn't tolerable. When you drop plotpoints and never develop them, they fester in the narrative like a cancer and drag everything down. Why did X do Y? Where did C come from? Why was F important? It was never explained.

For example, why the hell did the culprit kill Gohda and a nine year old girl? I've yet to see any motive that explained that; not even lolgold.

For all his talk about the heart being important, Ryukishi doesn't seem to actually give a shit. He rewrites characters personalities on the fly and has them do whatever he feels like for the sake of whatever he's trying to say. The characters don't drive the story, the story drives the characters, so they're little better than automatons because they don't need motives for any of their fucking behavior. He'll just have people do things just cause.

And that, more than anything, is probably why Umineko is ultimately shitty as a piece of legitimate literature.
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Old 2012-02-08, 17:45   Link #364
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
However, an important thing in fiction is to not include miscellaneous information. Ryukishi fails here, or maybe he doesn't because it's a mystery and is allowed to have red herrings. I feel that unless Genji had a moral dilemma with dealing with Natsuhi's baby that triggered a relevant flashback to his past or something, it might not be a good idea to add anything about it.
The issue is this, basically:

We know that Genji, like Shannon and Kanon, has some kind of "furniture" complex. We are told as much in Turn and Banquet especially. We know that Shannon and Kanon are part of this Yasu figure and she has particular hangups and beliefs about what being "furniture" means. However, we aren't really told this in detail until Requiem, and while it's possible to guess, it's not clear of the origin of the complex until then.

So, at least in Requiem, we kinda understand at long last what being "furniture" means, and we're shown how someone would come to believe that... for Yasu. Which only explains Shannon and Kanon.

This would be a good time in the narrative to compare and contrast Yasu and Genji, and to understand through their different experiences how both came to the conclusion that they are "furniture." This would give us a lot more insight into both characters' psychology. Instead, we're left feeling somewhat confused about Yasu (we get her point, but it's only her own perspective) and still completely in the dark about Genji.

This is not good writing. Good writing is either that Genji does not have a "furniture" complex (but perhaps explains it to Shannon and Kanon that they do), or that he does and it's explained. The ideal time to explain it is in ep7, for several reasons: It's here we learn about the genesis of Yasu's complex, and it's here we have Young Kinzo flashbacks. Any competent editor could have pointed this out and it could have been basically fixed with as little as one scene.
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Old 2012-02-08, 17:52   Link #365
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Actually, does Genji ever refer to himself as furniture outside of fantasy scenes the way Yasu does? You could make the argument that it's just a fantasy elaboration.
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Old 2012-02-08, 18:16   Link #366
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
For all his talk about the heart being important, Ryukishi doesn't seem to actually give a shit. He rewrites characters personalities on the fly and has them do whatever he feels like for the sake of whatever he's trying to say.
I'm sorry but I have to disagree. The characters for the most part act consistently (MAYBE excluding Yasu). Variations in behavior are acceptable because
a.) Humans aren't 1-dimensional
b.) The nature of kakeras allows for reasonable deviations (Kyrie, though we all suspected she was a psychobitch at some point). This is left up to each of our interpretations, so I can see some arguments here.

As far as motives go, regardless of whodunnit, there are viable reasons for killing everybody:

a.) The obvious one is eliminating witnesses. If the culprit wanted to escape with gold, the bomb is merely an additional measure (since Kuwadorian is safe). It takes YOU killing people YOURSELF to ensure that people are dead.
This is probably not Yasu's reason, since she pretty much is disinterested in life at that point.

b.) The culprit is Yasu and is batshit crazy.

c.) I'm sure there are others, even for yasu.

Option B is a cop-out, of course, and is what it seems to come down to.

Yasu's whole love issue isn't a good 'motive', but at least it is a REASON that has been alluded to at some point (primarily in 6, but partly in Beatrice's diatribes in 2).

It could be like Sherlock Holmes, where a bunch of random hints are thrown at you and the second half of the book is a story about how the random cabby driver, mentioned in one paragraph, traveled out west and blah blah blah RACHE.
Then again, I'm pretty sure Holmes was never meant to be fair-play, so that point is probably moot.

I'll agree with you that Umineko isn't too good as far as 'literary quality' goes. I won't call it shitty, but there is room for improvement from a critical angle. That doesn't mean that Umineko isn't really enjoyable, though.

What is the point of Homestuck? I can't find a point there, and it's almost over. It's fantastically planned out, and has a massive scope, but it doesn't stand as a work of literary art. It's just really fun and I like reading it.

Umineko is probably the same way.
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Old 2012-02-08, 18:19   Link #367
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Well, the painkillers used for childbirth don't. (Doesn't scopolamine block memories?)

What about a C-section? Is that done with general or local?
I don't really know about medicinal but my brother's birth was pretty troublesome and there were complications so my mother didn't really got to give him a good look.
Also, a baby can be hurriedly taken away if the doctors might suspect there's something wrong in him.

Now, let's assume Asumu was the first to give birth. The doctors don't just say 'oh, the baby dies' but take him away and try to save him to no result.
They tell Rudolf who's left with the task to tell Asumu.
Meanwhile he's informed Kirye is about to give birth to Battler and so he gets an idea.
He bribes the doctor and tells him to take the baby away from Kirye with the excuse there are troubles with him, then hands him to Asumu saying they managed to save her baby, while Asumu's baby will be given to Kirye, telling her 'sorry, we couldn't save him'.

The doctor had a sensible excuse to not show the babies to the mothers and had the time to repleace them.

Though I remember a movie about a real baby switching that happened years ago. Somehow the hospital staff switched the babies.

The mothers had the feelings the babies were slightly different from how they first saw them but they were told it was just in their head. The babies after all weren't that different. It was only later they discovered the truth.

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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
My problem with the "Who's Battler's mother?" question is that it doesn't seem to matter.
Well, basically, who's Battler's mother is mostly done in order to allow EP 5.

If there weren't doubts about who Battler's mother could be, he couldn't try to say he might have been the baby from 19 years ago.

Battler wouldn't be able to solve the crime with clues that were not presented. He needed his mother's identity to be in doubt to be allowed to use such solution.
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Old 2012-02-08, 19:44   Link #368
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From Episode 1:
; しかも、札も何も付いていない鍵を手にして、薔薇庭園裏にある倉庫の鍵だと理解した。@ついでに言う と、倉庫の場所すら理解していた。@もっとはっきり断言するわ。@犯人は使用人室の内部にも熟知して いる。」\
`Furthermore, even though the key didn't have a tag or anything sticking to it, they knew it was the key to the storehouse behind the rose garden.`@` ...And that means that they also knew where the storehouse was.`@` .........I'll say it even clearer.`@` The culprit knew the inside of the servant room well."`\



From Episode 4:
; その鍵は、彼のズボンのポケットに入っていた。@
; ご丁寧にも、園芸倉庫の鍵とプレートまで付いている。@
`That key, .........was in the pocket of his trousers.`@
`The gardening shed key had been kindly left there and even the plate was attached.`@
; つまり、やはりこの園芸倉庫は密室だったわけだ。\
`In other words, the gardening shed had been a closed room after all.`\

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Old 2012-02-08, 20:26   Link #369
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Actually, does Genji ever refer to himself as furniture outside of fantasy scenes the way Yasu does? You could make the argument that it's just a fantasy elaboration.
Yes, but fantasy elaborations symbolically tie in to the real world.

Quote:
I'm sorry but I have to disagree. The characters for the most part act consistently (MAYBE excluding Yasu). Variations in behavior are acceptable because
a.) Humans aren't 1-dimensional
b.) The nature of kakeras allows for reasonable deviations (Kyrie, though we all suspected she was a psychobitch at some point). This is left up to each of our interpretations, so I can see some arguments here.
The problem is mostly the Meta-World characters. And if the nature of Kakeras allows anyone to act any way, then what's the deal with not letting pieces go against their natures? It's arbitrary.

And if you can have characters act any way they want in any Gameboard, then we run into the "We don't know what any of these people are ACTUALLY like" problem.

Quote:
As far as motives go, regardless of whodunnit, there are viable reasons for killing everybody:

a.) The obvious one is eliminating witnesses. If the culprit wanted to escape with gold, the bomb is merely an additional measure (since Kuwadorian is safe). It takes YOU killing people YOURSELF to ensure that people are dead.
This is probably not Yasu's reason, since she pretty much is disinterested in life at that point.

b.) The culprit is Yasu and is batshit crazy.

c.) I'm sure there are others, even for yasu.
The gold doesn't work as a motive, as has already been discussed in the Spoilers thread. There's really no reason to kill anyone if money was what you wanted because there's no way to get away with it.

Quote:
Yasu's whole love issue isn't a good 'motive', but at least it is a REASON that has been alluded to at some point (primarily in 6, but partly in Beatrice's diatribes in 2).
But it's not actually a motive. There is a massive disconnect between "I have love problems" and "fuck it, kill EVERYBODY", and why she made the leap, if she infact did, is never explained. Ever.

So much for the heart of the mystery.

Quote:
It could be like Sherlock Holmes, where a bunch of random hints are thrown at you and the second half of the book is a story about how the random cabby driver, mentioned in one paragraph, traveled out west and blah blah blah RACHE.
Then again, I'm pretty sure Holmes was never meant to be fair-play, so that point is probably moot.
Holmes is fair play. The difference, however, is that it has an answer key.

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What is the point of Homestuck? I can't find a point there, and it's almost over. It's fantastically planned out, and has a massive scope, but it doesn't stand as a work of literary art. It's just really fun and I like reading it.
False comparison. Homestuck both isn't complete yet, and thus we can't reflect on the work as a whole, and it doesn't literally preach to it's readers and allegedly have some sort of moral or point to take away from it. It doesn't make an Argument about itself and the readers and the entire genre of fiction it occupies, nor is it criticizing other works of it's genre while failing to match up to those same criticisms.

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Well, basically, who's Battler's mother is mostly done in order to allow EP 5.

If there weren't doubts about who Battler's mother could be, he couldn't try to say he might have been the baby from 19 years ago.

Battler wouldn't be able to solve the crime with clues that were not presented. He needed his mother's identity to be in doubt to be allowed to use such solution.
This is begging the question. EP5 could've been rewritten differently, and since Asumu's mother isn't a major theme of EP5 it's kind of extraneous to say there's no other way for Battler to deal with the problem.
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Old 2012-02-08, 21:01   Link #370
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
For example, why the hell did the culprit kill Gohda and a nine year old girl? I've yet to see any motive that explained that; not even lolgold.
It was all an accident. Accidents don't care about who they kill.

...Yeah, that solution doesn't feel any better somehow.
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Old 2012-02-08, 21:07   Link #371
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
From Episode 1:
; しかも、札も何も付いていない鍵を手にして、薔薇庭園裏にある倉庫の鍵だと理解した。@ついでに言う と、倉庫の場所すら理解していた。@もっとはっきり断言するわ。@犯人は使用人室の内部にも熟知して いる。」\
`Furthermore, even though the key didn't have a tag or anything sticking to it, they knew it was the key to the storehouse behind the rose garden.`@` ...And that means that they also knew where the storehouse was.`@` .........I'll say it even clearer.`@` The culprit knew the inside of the servant room well."`\

From Episode 4:
; その鍵は、彼のズボンのポケットに入っていた。@
; ご丁寧にも、園芸倉庫の鍵とプレートまで付いている。@
`That key, .........was in the pocket of his trousers.`@
`The gardening shed key had been kindly left there and even the plate was attached.`@
; つまり、やはりこの園芸倉庫は密室だったわけだ。\
`In other words, the gardening shed had been a closed room after all.`\
Very nice catch. That takes care of that twilight.
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Old 2012-02-08, 21:35   Link #372
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Very nice catch. That takes care of that twilight.
Are we trying to explain EP1T1 or EP4T4? (I think it's T4, not entirely sure though)

If the key had its plate on it in EP4, that should only mean that you don't need to be a servant to find it in the servant room... But if I remember right, Gohda was given the key through the window when they locked the shed in the first place. He had it all along, so there's no need to find it. Even if Gohda handed the key to the culprit through the window to let them in, that wouldn't explain how the culprit managed to get the key back into Gohda's pocket after leaving and locking the door. It seems safe to assume that the culprit didn't use the key at all. However, that key should be the only way in or out, and I doubt the culprit can shoot them from the window.

It looks like a perfect closed room (which simply means that no one entered or left while it was a closed room). However... Before the closed room was constructed and after it was deconstructed, the Detective was there both times, which seems to confirm that they weren't killed then.

That leaves only the option of a suicide left... But, the nooses weren't what killed them, and they both have gunshot wounds in their foreheads, which means that they could have only pulled a suicide off if they used the "shoot yourself and let a weight drag the gun away" trick. I don't think that's the answer.

And, well, there's no motive for suicide anyway.

I'm just going off of my memory though, which is kind of blurry, and is missing a bunch of the details...
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Old 2012-02-08, 21:38   Link #373
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It's not the storeroom key is what I think is being got at. Battler never actually tried it in the lock to the grate he busted down did he?
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Old 2012-02-08, 21:41   Link #374
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
If the key had its plate on it in EP4, that should only mean that you don't need to be a servant to find it in the servant room... But if I remember right, Gohda was given the key through the window when they locked the shed in the first place. He had it all along, so there's no need to find it. Even if Gohda handed the key to the culprit through the window to let them in, that wouldn't explain how the culprit managed to get the key back into Gohda's pocket after leaving and locking the door. It seems safe to assume that the culprit didn't use the key at all. However, that key should be the only way in or out, and I doubt the culprit can shoot them from the window.
The key that Battler found in Gohda's pocket wasn't the real key to the shed.
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Old 2012-02-08, 21:43   Link #375
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
It's not the storeroom key is what I think is being got at. Battler never actually tried it in the lock to the grate he busted down did he?
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
The key that Battler found in Gohda's pocket wasn't the real key to the shed.
I realized it after I made the post. My bad. That sounds like a very Yasuda-ish thing to do, taking big risks and whatnot.

Really, if the detectives in Umineko actually properly inspected the crime scenes, I think they could easily figure out the majority of the tricks... It just goes to show how incompetent Battler is.
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Old 2012-02-09, 05:14   Link #376
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It just goes to show how incompetent Battler is.
In the first 4 games at least. But i really start to doubt Battler's characterization from EP1-4. The characterization of Piece!Battler from the first four gameboards is just the subjective opinion of the author(s), or just intentionally faked.

Escpacially regarding the gameboards of EP5 and EP6, Battler and BATTLER are not incompetent at all.

It would be stupid for a mystery novel, if the detective figured out all tricks in the middle of the story. Well... if he doesn't figure them out at all it is just as bad though.

If we assume, that "End Of The Golden Witch", or at least the forgery it is based on, has been written by witch hunters, then they would have no problem in getting information about Batter. They just had to go to his school and ask there.

And in EP6 Tohya seemed to have written it himself, who has already regained his memories, so of course he can base the personality/character on his memories.
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Old 2012-02-09, 07:56   Link #377
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You defined everyone that hated the end of Umineko "thickheaded" and you've been consistent with that attitude in all of your posts here. Renall has certainly been sarcastic, but sarcasm is the least you can expect when you attack a person first.
I wouldn't say anything as boorish as 'everyone that hates Umineko is thickheaded', neither did I attack everyone whose opinion was different than mine. I just can't help but feel annoyed at those who hated it because of the lack of answers regarding the mystery, (again, not Prime) because those are the people who didn't bother to think the mystery through, yet they blame the story for not giving them that answers. Those that stick around just to see who the culprit is in the end are those I have a problem with. Renall said something completely different (which I had misunderstood initially. Maybe it's something I disagree with, but it's also something I can (and ought to) respect.

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I was going to answer to some of your claims but then I remember what I realized many years ago. In the end it's really pointless to discuss about whether a certain work is good or bad. In the end if you loved a work you want to talk with other people that loved it, and if you hated it you want to talk with other people that hated it.
Nothing "good" can come from person "A" realizing that the work he enjoyed so much is full of fail, and not matter how much person "A" arguments his reasons, it won't change the fact that person "B" didn't enjoy the work.

You seem to be a person that really enjoyed Umineko, and that makes you the last person I'd want to explain in details all the flaws in Umineko. Not because I have fear of a confrontation, but because, seriously, we are not talking about politic or the future of humanity here. All that matter in a work of fiction is for people to enjoy it, if you did, good for you, even if I think it's for the wrong reasons. But you should weigh your words wisely if you don't want to start a flame war. Don't draw anyone who doesn't enjoy what you enjoy as an idiot. And even if you think it, don't say it, unless you are sure you are in a group where everyone agrees with you.
In fact, I strongly disagree with that last part. It's much fun to talk about a story that you loved with someone that also loved it, but it's more thrilling to talk about it with someone who hated it, and that way it's more worthwile for both sides, as long as they respect each other's opinion. And it seems you think I do not, but as explained above in this post, I didn't say that, or at least didn't mean to. Those who didn't enjoy Umineko have every right not to, or to even say it's total b*****it, but those who hated it just because they never cared to think in the first place are people I would find inexcusable.

Quote:
Anyway, as I said, I'm not going to say anything against someone who claims something that I think is messed up is a masterpiece. However I cannot let it pass when someone reinterprets and manipulate a story to suit his tastes. Because, as my personal credo, I think nothing is more disrespectful to an author than ignoring what the author really wanted to convey. And no matter how much you hate an author that's no reason to disrespect him.

I'm not saying that you are doing that, I'm justifying myself here, not attacking you.
And I agree with you to one extend, but I think putting your own opinion through to those who disagree and arguing about it with them (in a civilized fashion, of course) is also a way to savor the aftertaste of the story.

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But Renall earlier made a good point. Are you absolutely sure that Beatrice killed everyone in Rokkenjima Prime? Because most people here concluded she did not.
I can't know about Prime. When I say I have found the truth in Umineko, I speak about the truth that is actually 'find-able'. I have absolutely no means to know what the hell happened in Prime, and I don't think I need to.


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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
If we assume, that "End Of The Golden Witch", or at least the forgery it is based on, has been written by witch hunters, then they would have no problem in getting information about Batter. They just had to go to his school and ask there.

And in EP6 Tohya seemed to have written it himself, who has already regained his memories, so of course he can base the personality/character on his memories.
Personally, I think all Meta-Scenes don't have a solid human explanation, they are just fantasy scenes, existing out of the sphere of the Game Boards, and are just as they are, although they can also symbolize how Yasu invites Battler on a twisted (totally twisted) mystery game. Trying to explain those as who wrote, who imagined and planned everything would be, let's say, like trying to explain the function of magic in Harry Potter. After all, Featherine and her forgeries in EP6 is used just as a screening device.
Then again, that's just my opinion, and one I've never really been sure about...
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Old 2012-02-09, 07:58   Link #378
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My main problem with Umineko as it stands is that it apparently attracted people to it that would eventually end up disliking it and then continue to insult it every day for seemingly until the end of times.

Some other series have fan and you can meet a community of fans of it, but Umineko seems to have mostly haters. It's actually a real critic of Ryuukishi btw.
In the world of art there is no good or bad (no matter what anyone claim) - there is only successfully attracting your target market and failing to do so. Perhaps that is not so bad in Japan, I wouldn't know, but I think most of the critics of Umineko are things that are pretty common of VNs and that to a certain extent are even part of it's culture.
If you read fate and try to think of how realistic/unrealistic the story is, it sorta fails right away to me. It's sorta like a closed off world, similar to Rokkenjima, except it's two towns and the surrounding area, but the overall "disconnected from the rest of reality" feeling is pretty much the same. Higurashi is very similar, even if you remove the parasite or whatever, you have Rika and Satoko living together for instance, and the absolute hatred for Satoko is sorta ridiculous too.

Many people here read these VNs and many others and don't critic them the same way they critic Umineko, so I can't help but conclude that the only fault in Umineko is attracting the wrong crowd by giving them wrong expectations.
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Old 2012-02-09, 08:13   Link #379
GreyZone
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i guess WTC3 attracted too many people that were interested in the mystery aspect and only viewed the fantasy aspect as a sideshow. WTC4 has become too Meta-oriented and the only real logic puzzles were EP5 and EP8's mystery gameboard. EP6 had only 2 mysteries to be solved and beside that it was more of a nice fantasy story.

But then of course people get dissappointed, when they get EP7 as an "answer arc", but EP8 has only very few answers, or even creates more questions. I just think that there is always the expectation, that they can check, if their theories are right, or wrong and which is USUALLY at the end of the book/game/vn, but this just doesn't apply to Umineko, so the "fans" got angry.

Ryu said himself in the interview that he wanted to make harder mysteries and also concentrate more on them, but then, so he said, he realized that most of his readers were not knowledgable of mysteries and so he switched more to fantasy.
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Old 2012-02-09, 08:26   Link #380
ndqanh_vn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post



In fact, I strongly disagree with that last part. It's much fun to talk about a story that you loved with someone that also loved it, but it's more thrilling to talk about it with someone who hated it, and that way it's more worthwile for both sides, as long as they respect each other's opinion. And it seems you think I do not, but as explained above in this post, I didn't say that, or at least didn't mean to. Those who didn't enjoy Umineko have every right not to, or to even say it's total b*****it, but those who hated it just because they never cared to think in the first place are people I would find inexcusable.
I believe that Renall and most people here in this forum have thought about Umineko as hard as human could, so I'm not sure who are the people you're talking about. They (and me) do have problem with the story decided to close off that way and not reveal the truth in Prime, but mostly due to different reason, like ethical reason. Your remark is truly easy to be misunderstood.

Quote:
Some other series have fan and you can meet a community of fans of it, but Umineko seems to have mostly haters. It's actually a real critic of Ryuukishi btw.
In the world of art there is no good or bad (no matter what anyone claim) - there is only successfully attracting your target market and failing to do so. Perhaps that is not so bad in Japan, I wouldn't know, but I think most of the critics of Umineko are things that are pretty common of VNs and that to a certain extent are even part of it's culture.
Well I'm sure Umineko has fans. A lot of fans, really. Witch Hunt for example, they would not spend so much effort translating something they did not love.

People who thinks it is messed up and might be upset about it are also people, I think, loved it the most. Personally I would not have much problem with it if I just read it like any visual novel. But because I loved Umineko, I treated and thought about it like a legible literature piece. And I think a lot of people does, despite its technical quality. Well, in the end of course we are disappointed when it just could not go above higher than it possibly could.

In the end I don't know what is the crowd that is supposed to be attracted Umineko from your post. This is honest, I'm not starting a war. After so many mystery novel allusion and critic on that genre, Ryukishi must have thougth of Mystery fan, like I was attrated to it in the first place because I'm an Agatha Christie fan, and it just screamed Agatha in every ways.

About Higurashi, whether it is worse or better than Umineko is not a clear question. Of course the world is quite illogic as well, but still human psychology in Higurashi is still somewhat acceptable. About Satoko's hatred, I don't think it would be so strange to have the whole community shunned her that way. It happened in rural areas. And most of all, I think the creator absolutely has a clear ideas of what he's doing with Higurashi, its message are therefore clear cut and strong from the beginning to the end.
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