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Old 2012-05-17, 23:32   Link #421
battle22
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I like Umineko more than Higurashi a lot actually. In my opinion Umineko is much better . Of course this is just my opinion!! lol
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Old 2012-05-18, 02:52   Link #422
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I think most people who played the VNs liked Umineko better than Higurashi. Certainly before EP6 or 7 you would find barely anyone who played the Umineko VN and thought Higurashi was better.

Sadly, the answers being revealed seems to have lowered Umineko's popularity quite a lot. It's a shame.
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Old 2012-05-18, 08:06   Link #423
CrimsonMoonMist
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I personally prefer Umineko over Higurashi for its characters,
they just seem more well rounded and natural.
The meta-fictional deconstruction of the mystery genre is very interesting,
but alas, some might say it never quite came full circle in that regard,
which is regretable.

I really enjoy Higurashi mainly for its atmosphere,
the 'secluded little village' has always been my favorite mystery stage.
I also really enjoy the gradually rising horror and paranoia aspect of each EP.
Well, I've only just finished Meakashi, so maybe my opinion will change by the end.
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Old 2012-05-19, 06:22   Link #424
Captain Bluebeard
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
I think most people who played the VNs liked Umineko better than Higurashi. Certainly before EP6 or 7 you would find barely anyone who played the Umineko VN and thought Higurashi was better.

Sadly, the answers being revealed seems to have lowered Umineko's popularity quite a lot. It's a shame.
Maybe it was the too roundabout way they were given, or that some people got the complete opposite of what they were expecting. At any rate, Umineko's atmosphere undergoes a full 180 degree turn by EP5 onwards (just like Higurashi's Minagoroshi, I suppose).

I loved both, but I think Umineko was better. His writing has matured very much (maybe it's just all because of Mangagamer's incompetent translation being no match for Witch Hunt), and he has reduced all ridiculousness and fanservice of Higurashi to a minimum. Besides that, Umineko was more complex, it involved a lot of thinking that could actually get you somewhere, whereas Higurashi was more of a horror/fiction and not a mystery.

P.S: Still, Higurashi had THE Ryukishi art.
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Old 2012-05-20, 02:27   Link #425
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I always viewed Umineko as not just a deconstruction of the mystery genre, but also of Higurashi as a whole. I mean, what were many of us expecting when Umineko was annouced? A bunch of bizarre murders, yangire girls, a hotblooded protagonist... And when you think about it for a second, EP1 does give us the impression that our expectations were correct, until the Tea Party. Higurashi had its own version of the Tea Party where the characters discuss what happened in the arc and whatnot, as if the were actors at a backstage. The EP1 Tea Party starts out the same way until Beato shows up. And from there, all our expectations regarding When They Cry in its entirety are destroyed with each subsequent scene.
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Old 2012-05-22, 11:55   Link #426
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I always viewed Umineko as not just a deconstruction of the mystery genre, but also of Higurashi as a whole. I mean, what were many of us expecting when Umineko was annouced? A bunch of bizarre murders, yangire girls, a hotblooded protagonist... And when you think about it for a second, EP1 does give us the impression that our expectations were correct, until the Tea Party. Higurashi had its own version of the Tea Party where the characters discuss what happened in the arc and whatnot, as if the were actors at a backstage. The EP1 Tea Party starts out the same way until Beato shows up. And from there, all our expectations regarding When They Cry in its entirety are destroyed with each subsequent scene.
That's clearly what he was going for in Legend. There are just two problems with it, as I see it:
  • Not enough actually changed, making it more of a referential joke than an actual dismantling of what he set up before.
  • The characters were already so much better-written in the first place in Umineko that the comparisons to Higurashi never quite hashed out in the first place. Battler was always a better protagonist, with more depth and appeal.
So you end up in this situation where he's trying not to be like Higurashi, but in a way he is still kind of being like Higurashi, but at the same time he's doing a much better job of it overall in mood, theme, pacing (I know, I know, but...), and character depth (for the most part).

So it's kinda like Higurashi-but-better, then it kinda mutated into something distinct unto itself, yet still very much a Ryukishi work. The question is whether that's something I'm really appreciative of in the end. To be perfectly honest, I kinda hated Higurashi.
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Old 2012-05-23, 07:02   Link #427
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To be perfectly honest, I kinda hated Higurashi.
Wait... what made you start reading the VN and where did your assumption that Ryuukishi was a good author come from if you hated Higurashi?
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Old 2012-05-23, 08:20   Link #428
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Wait... what made you start reading the VN and where did your assumption that Ryuukishi was a good author come from if you hated Higurashi?
A friend telling me it was nothing like Higurashi, mainly. I didn't start reading it until Banquet's translation patch was out, mostly out of reluctance to bother with something from the same author. I really had to be cajoled into it.

And I never really thought he was a good or bad author as such just from Higurashi, I just didn't like Higurashi. It's not exactly a matter of whether it was well written or poorly written... although in hindsight, he's an old dog who learned a few new tricks but didn't forget the less exciting old tricks. Perhaps I should have seen that coming. Still, I had considerably greater faith in him through Alliance than I did before I'd started reading Umineko.
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Old 2012-06-30, 05:12   Link #429
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Finally writing up my overall review. It's shameful but I only just finished the novel recently. Unfortunately most of Chiru lost my interest but I got around to it in the end.

Overall Story
Spoiler:


Characters
Spoiler:


Technical Aspects
Spoiler:


What the franchise meant to you
Spoiler:


What could the writer could have done better
Spoiler:
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Old 2012-07-10, 00:22   Link #430
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Like really, did the Rudolf baby thing matter too much in the grand scheme of things?
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It didn't. But it was a plot twist he brought up in EP4 to shake things up, and he felt like it should be wrapped up so it didn't distract from what was really important.
Now that you guys mention it. I don't think Battler grew too much from this revelation actually. It could have been used to give Battler some character growth. But instead it basically removes him from the story for part of the episode. He doesn't really learn anything about himself from it. So in that sense, it didn't add anything to Battler's character development. On the other hand it developed Kyrie and Ange, and gave Battler a better idea about the rules of the game.

Also I thought I'd bring the conversation over to here, because I think it's more relevant in the game impressions thread, and this thread needs some love.
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Old 2012-07-10, 13:37   Link #431
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How does it develop Kyrie? It adds a certain irony to her story, sure, but she doesn't even know about the swap unless you solve the Episode 8 puzzle.

I'm not really seeing how it develops Ange either. I don't even think she ever knows about it.

The thing about Battler and the rules of the game is definitely true though. But again I wonder there could have been a better way for that plot point to work.
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Old 2012-07-10, 13:57   Link #432
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The whole thing is pretty hamfisted and is one of many dangling plot threads. If I had the time or inclination I'd love to go back through 1-4 and name all the plot threads that were never addressed, but that's too time consuming for me right now.
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Old 2012-07-10, 14:52   Link #433
Thunder Book
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That's my larger issue, I suppose. Rudolf's baby swapping is just one example of such things that were interesting and mysterious at the time, but then don't go anywhere really. The quiz game really started to seem cheap to me, once I realized that, and that it didn't serve much other purpose but to resolve these threads.

My ideal version of Episode 8 would have some amazing way to wrap all these threads up, while also delivering an amazing and emotional story. Of course that would basically be impossible for just any writer to do.

Ugh, I think I'm starting to fall into the "Chiru is very flawed" camp.
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Old 2012-07-10, 15:29   Link #434
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My ideal version of Episode 8 would have some amazing way to wrap all these threads up, while also delivering an amazing and emotional story. Of course that would basically be impossible for just any writer to do.

Ugh, I think I'm starting to fall into the "Chiru is very flawed" camp.
The problem is, ep8 is far too late. Answers should have been trickling in at a steady clip all throughout Chiru. One big problem with Chiru, I believe, is that it wasted a lot of time and didn't introduce critical elements until far too late. We were never even introduced to the supposed character behind Beatrice until ep7; we probably should've first met them (even if we didn't know who they were) in ep5.
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Old 2012-07-10, 19:34   Link #435
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I agree with all that, which is why I made that Chiru comment.

Wasn't part of "Land" supposed to feature Yasu somehow? I know "Land" was changed to "Banquet" anyways due to fan reactions, but it's simply bizarre that Ryu07 waited until Episode 7 to reveal something he initially planned elements of for Episode 3.

I suspect that he may have originally intended Chiru to focus on giving answers and resolutions to at least some of these mysteries and plot points initially. Episode 5 is probably where Kinzo's death would have been revealed, Episode 7 probably would have made more sense had "Land" been what was written etc. Chiru may have originally had even more. But you can really only speculate on what wasn't written to a certain degree, unfortunately.

Honestly I really wish he would release a finished version of "Land of the Golden Witch", along with various notes and commentaries about things he originally planned, why certain plot elements were cut, why various changes to the story were made, why certain parts in Chiru happened the way they did etc.

Last edited by Thunder Book; 2012-07-10 at 20:00.
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Old 2012-07-10, 20:15   Link #436
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I never heard anything about "land" introducing Yasu.

The only things that I know about land are what Ryuukishi said in his last interview with Keya:

Quote:
R Because of that situation I cancelled the production of what was planned to be EP3, Land of the Golden Witch. Right after we released EP I thought ĄSo, after the proper greeting by the witch, letís create a real evil, orthodox mystery incident.ď but because so many people abandoned reasoning all together I hurriedly changed the whole script. Because it felt necessary to give the player a character who would lecture him about how to think, Vargilia was born. There were plans for a character similar to Vargilia to appear in the story before, but it was to be a more agressive character who later became the basis for Erika.

K At that time there were already plans for something like Erika?

R It was a character who would argue with the main characters about reasoning, and become an antagonist, approaching everything from a different point than Battler. It was actually planned to introduce that character at the stage of EP3. At that time it was a man called Vergilius.

K The name is taken from the character Vergilius in Danteís Divina Commedia, right?!

R That is correct. But because a lecture like this became severely necessary, I changed the character Vergilius into the woman Vargilia. And because he changed into Vargilia, the connection to Kumasawa was created. At that point I stopped thinking about the character Vergilius at all, but now when I think about it, with a little struggling, you could call him the male version of Erika. Though a little bit more impertinent in her knowledge.

K At the time of EP2, Battler had a pretty hard time reasoning himself. If Vergilius had appeared then, the plot would have become an even fiercer battle?

R It became a fierce battle either way, didnít it? In my head EP1 was supposed to be nothing more than an opening, during which you get to remember the structure of the characters and the mansion. EP2 was to be the beginning of the fight. And EP3 was to mark the beginning of the truly orthodox incidents. I really thought about putting many difficult riddles into Umineko from start to finish, butÖ I donít think I would be able to make you enjoy Land, now that all of you have learned about the truth. If the answer is already out, itís laughable to try and hide it with difficult riddles. At best it would be funny. Maybe youíd think ĄHey, that makes up for some of itď. Well that might happen, but almost all of the tricks planned for Land have been divided up and mixed into what became EP4~6. I really hear you asking for a release of Land, but Iím afraid Iím just not able to do that anymore.
A whole deal of things would have changed if Land was done in place of Banquet. No Virgilia, and no Erika.
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Old 2012-07-10, 20:19   Link #437
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Well I remember somewhere it was stated with certainty that Kinzo's death was gonna be revealed in EP5, but so many people had figured it out that he confirmed it in Alliance, instead.

I also remember the general sentiment (and you even get this in the little blurb before starting) that Banquet was retooled to be an easier game that offered a lot of hints via Virgilia and Ronove. Which amuses me, since IMO Banquet is the hardest of the first 4 games to get some semblance of "what the hell was going on in actuality" for.

What gets me about Yasu in Requiem is ... well, in general, I just think too much narrative stock was placed on Shkanon and her relationship with Battler/George/Jessica, since the relationships of the parents / their spouses and siblings were far more interesting. To me, anyways.

Like, I'd take a stake to the knee for a "introducing Natsuhi to the household" or "Kyrie and Kasumi hangin' out round the house", or "Rosa trusts Rudolf with a secret" kinda flashback. Just for, y'know, flavor.
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Old 2012-07-10, 21:50   Link #438
Thunder Book
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I never heard anything about "land" introducing Yasu.
Admittedly I read it on TVTropes' Trivia page for Umineko, so it may not be accurate. I'll look through interviews later myself to see if I can find out if that's true or not though.

EDIT: Best I can tell that that claim is BS. SORRY EVERYBODY

Last edited by Thunder Book; 2012-07-10 at 22:08.
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Old 2012-07-11, 01:26   Link #439
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We were never even introduced to the supposed character behind Beatrice until ep7; we probably should've first met them (even if we didn't know who they were) in ep5.
Actually, that's exactly what happened! Remember the man from 19 years ago?
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Old 2012-07-11, 01:52   Link #440
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Uh, yea, no. Because that "man from 19 years ago" could've been fucking anyone pretending to be that child as part of a scheme, none of that characterization matches up to Yasu or her motivations whatsoever, and Yasu might not even be that baby.
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