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Old 2013-05-04, 05:54   Link #141
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
People who "do like moe" don't usually confine themselves to some artificial box that says "survey says these shows are designed to make you feel this way", and placing things in a "moe box" has little-to-no meaning as a distinguishing factor. And whatever line you propose on the "is-it-or-isn't-it" front, someone can argue -- and probably will -- that there's a clear precedent that things on the other side of the line should be included. Even if you write "RRR's Moe Media Manifesto", no one will follow it.
To be honest, I like the idea of "moe is a feeling" a lot more than it being some sort of descriptor. It's romantic in more ways than one to think you can emphatize with mere mental constructs, such as fictional characters.

But I think practice has shown that those who stand behind this definition have a very shallow relationship to these characters, if it's to be equated to paternal feelings, empathy or adoration. The sheer number of characters these so called moe fans express their devotion to, where it's standard to hear "character love only lasts one cour", isn't anything alike expressing emotions to, let's say, real people. Now, I'm not one to equate reality and fiction too strongly, so this is a minor point, but the mass consumption of characters in this manner means that either: 1.) these people don't really know what moe feelings are like, which raises concerns of accessibility and promotes elitism, or 2.) moe has expanded its definition and this expanded definition is what people refer to on a more daily basis.

There are reasons why I prefer 2. I honestly believe that moe can be defined the Akamatsu way, however it can be nothing more than a core ideal. The definition has to be loose, otherwise "moe is a feeling" loses its relevance. A fansub group once famously translated moe as "turn ons". This is what overusage of the word converges to, which then begs the question why not just use that?

Undoubtedly, moe is a slang word and has a history of different readings and precise meanings, which all revolved around very similar things. The core definition "it's a feeling" is useless if this feeling was supposed to be one thing in this era and another in that era. From a linguistic standpoint it is pointless to struggle to reach consensus, it is a slang word after all, and as such it will always change to the whims of the fandom, but that doesn't mean the trail on how it's been used has been completely forgotten. We know which shows were moe in the 90's, we know which ones were moe in 00's, we know which shows are moe now. We know which shows include moe elements, we know which shows are built with a checklist in mind. This is why I say understanding the word is a matter of animation literacy. There's no reason to feign ignorance. Those who are literate can use the word and others who are literate will understand. If they don't understand, they will sooner than later open a thread such as this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
There's just too much of cases where "moe" is just used as a blanket term as "stuff I don't like".
Maybe it is just my own limited experience, but every time I hear this I think to myself, these people suffer from persecution complex.
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Old 2013-05-04, 07:45   Link #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
The more I read from the apologists, the more I'm convinced ya'll like the term "moe" being so vague and ill-defined that it becomes very easy to move the goalposts any time someone hits your position.

Nice job.
Thanks for your non argument.

It's like someone posted something decent and you're like "lol [random logical fallacy]" while skirting the issue. I'm pretty sure that's a fallacy in itself.

Of course, since you're quoting thin air, your goalposts are on the other side of the street too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
Maybe it is just my own limited experience, but every time I hear this I think to myself, these people suffer from persecution complex.
Sure, but there is no doubt that it's been used as such in many debates concerning modern anime [just read a random ANN review] regardless of what you think of people's motivations. Of course this topic pops up on these forums itself like every two weeks as part of someone's rant. So yes, I would say it's a bit tiring-- you could ask Relentlessflame on how often it's seen.

Furthermore, as with all bashing involving generalizations, there's obviously going to be a level of defensiveness shown. It would be like if someone said all anime was porn for immature adults with pedophilic tendencies, naturally many an anime fan would not respond so nicely.
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Old 2013-05-04, 08:12   Link #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
Maybe it is just my own limited experience, but every time I hear this I think to myself, these people suffer from persecution complex.
Many times when an anime is called moe by someone, there's usually another word like "generic" or "unoriginal" or "pandering" attached to it, or something else trying to imply that the shows are somehow not "legitimately" good. Of course I'd get tired of that after a while.
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Old 2013-05-04, 08:47   Link #144
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I actually agree with Synaesthetic here. A word that has no clear meaning is absolutely pointless. It has become more of a fad than anything else.

The anime industry itself (and anything related) started abusing the word because it was the "cool word" of the moment. The term spread to the west where some people were happy to spread this "cool word" from Japan, they thought they knew what it meant, but they actually didn't, they just had their own interpretations, thus creating even more confusion.

At one point when people started to mix all these many different interpretations you ended up getting some kind of amorphous concept that isn't specific for anything anymore. All that remains is the cool word.
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Old 2013-05-04, 08:50   Link #145
hyl
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I actually agree with Synaesthetic here. A word that has no clear meaning is absolutely pointless. It has become more of a fad than anything else.

The anime industry itself (and anything related) started abusing the word because it was the "cool word" of the moment. The term spread to the west where some people were happy to spread this "cool word" from Japan, they thought they knew what it meant, but they actually didn't, they just had their own interpretations, thus creating even more confusion.

At one point when people started to mix all these many different interpretations you ended up getting some kind of amorphous concept that isn't specific for anything anymore.
You already have that problem already with terms/words like manga (in France), hentai (and probably a whole lot more words) being used wrong or in a different interpretation compared to where it original came from. But that doesn't mean those words are pointless
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Old 2013-05-04, 08:54   Link #146
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
You already have that problem already with terms/words like manga (in France), hentai and probably a whole lot more.
There are similar debates for many other words, but they are usually restricted to two or max three different clear definitions.

For example there are debates on whether "anime" should be considered "japanese animation" or "an animation style originated from Japan". Both of them are pretty clear definitions and both of them are very specific.

However with "moe" you don't have any clear definition to begin with.
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Old 2013-05-04, 08:57   Link #147
hyl
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However with "moe" you don't have any clear definition to begin with.
How so? So far the term moe has been used in this thread for at most like 4 or 5 different kinds of definitions. It's not that we don't have any defintions to work with but that there doesn't seem to be a general consensus to use which definition, because the term is different for every person.

edit: let's use this somewhat jokingly

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito Kinomoto View Post
Noun--It's an art style, a type of show, an element of a show, a type of character, an element of a character, and a feeling you'll know when it happens. One, all, or a combination of the above might be applied.

Noun subset--May also represent an industry phenomenon.

Adjective--Descriptor for the above nouns where a negative or positive connotation is dependent on the user's context.
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Old 2013-05-04, 09:07   Link #148
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
How so? So far the term moe has been used in this thread for at most like 4 or 5 different kinds of definitions
It's already too much and some of them aren't specific nor necessary.
Some definitions proposed have already words for them like "cute" "adorable" which would make the use of a new word merely a "cool" factor.

"I could call her cute, but if I call her moe is cooler".
"I could call it popularity contest, or beauty contest, but let's call it saimoe!"


In contrast the use of terms like "anime" has an arguably practical function. it is necessary to make a clear distinction between a certain animation and another.

The same is true for "hentai" and "manga".

But what's the purpose of the word "moe" if it doesn't distinguish anything precise anymore?
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Old 2013-05-04, 09:11   Link #149
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It's already too much and some of them aren't specific nor necessary.
Some definitions proposed have already words for them like "cute" "adorable" which would make the use of a new word merely a "cool" factor.

"I could call her cute, but if I call her moe is cooler".
"I could call it popularity contest, or beauty contest, but let's call it saimoe!"


In contrast the use of terms like "anime" has an arguably practical function. it is necessary to make a clear distinction between a certain animation and another.

The same is true for "hentai" and "manga".

But what's the purpose of the word "moe" if it doesn't distinguish anything precise anymore?
Isn't that true for almost every word that evokes some kind of feeling? Words like "cool", "hot" , "radical", "strange" or "amazing" are hardly precise and are almost just as vague as "moe".

Would that make those words useless? Personally i don't think so, because you still have some kind of idea what those mean despite that not everyone uses those words in the same way.
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Old 2013-05-04, 09:34   Link #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Isn't that true for almost every word that evokes some kind of feeling? Words like "cool", "hot" , "radical", "strange" or "amazing" are hardly precise and are almost just as vague as "moe".

Would that make those words useless? Personally i don't think so, because you still have some kind of idea what those mean despite that not everyone uses those words in the same way.
Excluding "radical" I've never heard of debates on what those thing means.

I think it should be clear now that the problem is not that we don't have a defined list of specific things that are universally considered moe, but that we don't have a specific definition of moe to begin with.

For all those things you have mentioned people only debate on which adheres to the acknowledged definitions.

For example girl A says "Brad Pit is cool" and girl B says "No Brad Pit isn't cool" but they both mean the same thing when they use the word "cool".

While when someone says "Nadia is moe" and another says "No Nadia isn't moe" you're not even sure if they mean the same thing, and they probably don't.
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Old 2013-05-04, 09:49   Link #151
hyl
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Excluding "radical" I've never heard of debates on what those thing means.
Those were minor examples that i only thought up on the spot, but there are easily a whole lot of more words that have a vague definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
For all those things you have mentioned people only debate on which adheres to the acknowledged definitions.

For example girl A says "Brad Pit is cool" and girl B says "No Brad Pit isn't cool" but they both mean the same thing when they use the word "cool".
Mean the same thing?
I still don't have an idea if Brad pitt is either "great", "awesome" (which are by the way just as as vague as "cool") or "popular "and these days even a nice or laidback person are also considered "cool". If we go back to when the word originated we also get meanings such as rebelious or tough . And i still haven't gotten to every possible meaning of the word "cool".
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Old 2013-05-04, 10:17   Link #152
Akito Kinomoto
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There doesn't need to be a single definition; you just need to know what definition you're using. ( ‿)
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Old 2013-05-04, 12:52   Link #153
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by cyth View Post
We know which shows were moe in the 90's, we know which ones were moe in 00's, we know which shows are moe now. We know which shows include moe elements, we know which shows are built with a checklist in mind. This is why I say understanding the word is a matter of animation literacy. There's no reason to feign ignorance. Those who are literate can use the word and others who are literate will understand. If they don't understand, they will sooner than later open a thread such as this.
Please don't talk as though your opinion makes you enlightened. I don't believe that Azuma's checklists are useful or even accurate, and I'm not the only person to share that view.
This has nothing to do with "animation literacy", whatever that means. It has everything to do with semantics, and the willingness to boil down characters and shows to nothing more than often ill-defined "moe elements", which inevitably leads to derision on that basis.
I don't have a persecution complex. This is something that actually happens.
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Old 2013-05-04, 13:36   Link #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There are similar debates for many other words, but they are usually restricted to two or max three different clear definitions.

For example there are debates on whether "anime" should be considered "japanese animation" or "an animation style originated from Japan". Both of them are pretty clear definitions and both of them are very specific.

However with "moe" you don't have any clear definition to begin with.
Yes, but a term can be broad and still have meaning as well as long as it expresses a general concept. There are certainly anime that are not widely considered to have moe elements, so it's not being thrown around as mindlessly. Does it get used around too much? Sure, but then again so are such terms like tsundere

And things can be very wide indeed. MD Geist and Cowboy Bebop can be considered both sci-fi, but you're certainly not going to convince anyone that they are the same, or that sci-fi is misogynistic just because MD Geist was. Likewise, it's unfair to use something like K-on as something indicative of all anime that has moe.
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Old 2013-05-04, 13:53   Link #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
We know which shows were moe in the 90's, we know which ones were moe in 00's, we know which shows are moe now. We know which shows include moe elements, we know which shows are built with a checklist in mind. This is why I say understanding the word is a matter of animation literacy. There's no reason to feign ignorance. Those who are literate can use the word and others who are literate will understand. If they don't understand, they will sooner than later open a thread such as this.
I basically already addressed this point before; we really don't know, and this isn't a matter of "feigning ignorance". This is exactly the same argument Triple_R made in the last thread that people should just "be honest". No one is being dishonest or feigning anything! I mean, go ahead: just try and make some sort of definitive list of what shows are moe and what shows aren't, whether you want to use your "checklist" or not. Many people have some vague idea of what should be included, but there is absolutely no agreement about what is not included, and people will argue about it until the cows are not only home but long past dead. This has been going on for years now, so I'm not talking hypothetical here.

I honestly don't understand this whole "you know what it is, I know what it is, and we just have to admit it" argument. If it were so clear, that'd be great! I'd be thrilled if we could just have a sticky post somewhere and say once and for all "This is moe anime" and not need yet another thread like this! But it isn't that clear at all. It refers to this vague amorphous blob of a concept that kinda sorta has inferred meaning but no fixed constraints. Even those who are "literate" can't really agree on what exactly it is, and use conflicting definitions all the time. Are you the expert that's going to unite the fandom under one common meaning and understanding under the guise of "animation literacy"? Because that'd be just swell.

I personally happen to believe it's a lost cause, not by choice or desire, but by experience in seeing these debates play out endlessly over the years. But hey, go ahead: prove me wrong. This isn't "snark", it's exhaustion from this never-ending argument.
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Old 2013-05-04, 13:56   Link #156
cyth
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Please don't talk as though your opinion makes you enlightened. I don't believe that Azuma's checklists are useful or even accurate, and I'm not the only person to share that view.
Azuma's checklists? Useful? Accurate? I have a feeling you don't have a slightest idea what you're talking about.
Quote:
This has nothing to do with "animation literacy", whatever that means.
Animation literacy means you know enough about anime to know what is being talked about.
Quote:
It has everything to do with semantics, and the willingness to boil down characters and shows to nothing more than often ill-defined "moe elements", which inevitably leads to derision on that basis.
Can you explain a bit more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Many people have some vague idea of what should be included, but there is absolutely no agreement about what is not included, and people will argue about it until the cows are not only home but long past dead. This has been going on for years now, so I'm not talking hypothetical here.
Look man, I am not arguing that there needs to be this box where every moe show goes in, but I'm not going to say this or that anime doesn't consist of moe elements just because people disagree on the finer points and nuances of the definition.

I know a lot of shows that have only a nugget of let's say sci-fi elements, and while we can argue whether the show falls into the sci-fi genre, we will all agree that the show has sci-fi elements. But by the same principle, when a show overwhelmingly dabbles in sci-fi elements and concepts, there's nothing to stop us from saying its genre is sci-fi. There are clear-cut and not-so-clear-cut examples. Same goes for moe. To say that a show with a lineup of girls consisting of a tsundere, yandere, whateverdere isn't a moe show, THAT is feigning ignorance. Perhaps something like, I don't know, Madoka isn't clear cut. Is it a moe show? Is it not? I don't think this question is that relevant. But does it have moe elements? Absolutely. Now, if any of you has the balls to say otherwise, then I'm done with this discussion.
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Old 2013-05-04, 14:12   Link #157
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
The more I read from the apologists, the more I'm convinced ya'll like the term "moe" being so vague and ill-defined that it becomes very easy to move the goalposts any time someone hits your position.

Nice job.

As far as I'm concerned, as of this moment, Moe is the bartender from The Simpsons.
Yes, because I just made a post concerning my thoughts on "characters with vulnerabilities designed to appeal to a male audience". Clearly, I changed my position regarding what moe is in order to dodge your criticisms.

Now, to be fair, I don't really have a single exacting definition of moe. Because I take the approach that a definition of a word should reflect its actual usage. And there's several definitions of moe out there, most of which accurately reflect some common usage of the term.

This should also make it clear why I dislike the definition you advance: it only reflects a small portion of actual usage! And yes, that includes my usage - when I say I'm a moe fan, what I'm really trying to say is something along the lines of "I'm a fan of (usually otaku oriented) media with a strong emphasis on cute girls, be they Hitagi type or Nadeko type".

Since no single definition captures all common usage of the term, I advise people to know multiple uses and just role with it. Which is what I did in that previous post: I knew what kind of characters you meant, so I wrote what I thought about them.
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Old 2013-05-04, 14:17   Link #158
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by cyth View Post
Animation literacy means you know enough about anime to know what is being talked about.
That's a term you made up, I'm assuming?
Listen, this feels like your way of making everybody else but you and people who agree with you seem ignorant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
To say that a show with a lineup of girls consisting of a tsundere, yandere, whateverdere isn't a moe show, THAT is feigning ignorance.
So harem shows are moe shows now? That's not something you're going to reach a common consensus on, I can tell you.
What I meant by derision was that the term "moe show" is usually applied to four-girl comedies in an attempt to reduce all such shows to a single, easily-dismissed category, which other people in this thread have also commented on. Harem shows are rarely so categorized, because to quite a few people, "moe shows" can't contain male characters at all.
According to your definition, any show that relies on classic character archetypes is a "moe show". That's... I'm sorry, no, that's ridiculous.
Like tototum stated, "bishoujo show" is a far more applicable term that doesn't have the same baggage, and look how it's fallen out of use as "moe" has become a popular phrase.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
Now, if any of you has the balls to say otherwise, then I'm done with this discussion.
So, in other words, "I am right and you are wrong, QED."
That's a wonderful way to argue! I'm proud of you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
when I say I'm a moe fan, what I'm really trying to say is something along the lines of "I'm a fan of (usually otaku oriented) media with a strong emphasis on cute girls, be they Hitagi type or Nadeko type".
Then why not say that instead? Why not say "I like shows with lots of cute girls in them"? People will always know what you mean.
Saying "I like moe shows", for most people, will instantly remove Bakemonogatari and like works from consideration.
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Old 2013-05-04, 14:33   Link #159
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
To say that a show with a lineup of girls consisting of a tsundere, yandere, whateverdere isn't a moe show, THAT is feigning ignorance.
To back up Kaisos Erranon, it's statement like this that make me think that using the word "moe" is utterly useless. See, cyth seems so secure about this, and yet you have at least two persons who totally disagree.
As things are now If I said "moe" I'd probably wouldn't communicate what I mean at all, since the other person would think about something completely different.

In the end I can only agree with what Relentless Flame said. It's a lost cause.
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Old 2013-05-04, 14:35   Link #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Yes, because I just made a post concerning my thoughts on "characters with vulnerabilities designed to appeal to a male audience". Clearly, I changed my position regarding what moe is in order to dodge your criticisms.

Now, to be fair, I don't really have a single exacting definition of moe. Because I take the approach that a definition of a word should reflect its actual usage. And there's several definitions of moe out there, most of which accurately reflect some common usage of the term.

This should also make it clear why I dislike the definition you advance: it only reflects a small portion of actual usage! And yes, that includes my usage - when I say I'm a moe fan, what I'm really trying to say is something along the lines of "I'm a fan of (usually otaku oriented) media with a strong emphasis on cute girls, be they Hitagi type or Nadeko type".

Since no single definition captures all common usage of the term, I advise people to know multiple uses and just role with it. Which is what I did in that previous post: I knew what kind of characters you meant, so I wrote what I thought about them.
Well, 0utf0x.

I think one thing is clear. Sometimes definitions can be disputed, but sometimes when a certain hard definition is imposed on us, that it feels like that proponents are forced to play in their field.

So it's not really about picking and choosing definitions. It's about refusing to play on a rigged battlefield where someone has already declared themselves the winner.

It can just be seen here, through the circular arguments and appeal to emotion made in this very thread and elsewhere, of which I'm just not very impressed of. It's not good to slander a fanbase. One should form logical arguments and be more specific, so insulting them no longer counts as slander.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Then why not say that instead? Why not say "I like shows with lots of cute girls in them"? People will always know what you mean.
Saying "I like moe shows", for most people, will instantly remove Bakemonogatari and like works from consideration.
I actually try to do that for quite a lot of situations
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