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Old 2011-07-08, 10:00   Link #141
ykf566
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There is no pedophilia or anything sexual in this anime.

And it would be nice if we don't see a comment about the manga every page.
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Old 2011-07-08, 11:47   Link #142
DragoonKain3
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Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
I can blame him for actually posting that comment though.
Well SOMEONE needs to say it. It's exactly as Fedor said... anime in general has been such a rut into loli-moe that THAT was my first impression for even an anti-loli-moe like me (if previous Saimoe posts of mine are of any indication).
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Old 2011-07-08, 11:54   Link #143
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
They weren't being morons, they were being realistic. Taking care of a child is indeed no easy task, and you shouldn't ever undertake it if you only feel half hearthed about it. I would have probably done the same.
The practicality of their arguments does not change the fact that they are stupid jackasses who didn't even have the decency to think of the girl herself. Rin had just lost her father and her mother was missing, she had no one. And these people first talk about what the father was thinking having an illegitimate kid, then insult the girl's mother saying that there's no use dealing with the sort of person who abandons their kid. What's worse, at the father's funeral, with the girl just outside the room, they have the nerve to start wondering whether she's really his daughter.
Sometimes the most contemptible excuses are the realistic ones. These people presented their statements like they were carefully considered issues and problems that would come from taking Rin, but really in all they were nothing more than excuses to insist that someone else take her. They even went so far as to come up with unfounded suspicions of mental handicaps. Every one of them grabbed at whatever they could as a reason to refuse the girl, and none of them took a moment to consider the girl herself. Daikichi was possibly the worst equipped to raise a child, but he was absolutely the only person there who looked at Rin as a six-year-old human child who needed someone to care for her, while everyone else looked at her as a burden and a mark of shame that their grandfather had left them with. If it had been a legitimate child who they'd known about, like Reina, they would've said similar things but acted as if they felt that someone needed to take her. Their behavior towards taking Rin was no better than if they'd been discussing how to pay a mountain of debt the old man had left behind. That is why I felt it wrong that the retort was cut, because those people deserved to feel some real shame at how they'd behaved.

Please enough with the loli crap. I've seen plenty of loli anime. Loli is generally at least ten, somewhere in the area of early adolescence. Old enough to start to be curious or interested in things. As someone who was once a junior-high boy, I can accept the idea of a junior-high girl being attractive, and appreciate humor built around that. But at six it's an entirely different story. Save the loli crap for people who are old enough to wash their own hair.
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Old 2011-07-08, 12:13   Link #144
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Originally Posted by Seiryuu View Post
The practicality of their arguments does not change the fact that they are stupid jackasses who didn't even have the decency to think of the girl herself. Rin had just lost her father and her mother was missing, she had no one. And these people first talk about what the father was thinking having an illegitimate kid, then insult the girl's mother saying that there's no use dealing with the sort of person who abandons their kid. What's worse, at the father's funeral, with the girl just outside the room, they have the nerve to start wondering whether she's really his daughter.
Sometimes the most contemptible excuses are the realistic ones. These people presented their statements like they were carefully considered issues and problems that would come from taking Rin, but really in all they were nothing more than excuses to insist that someone else take her. They even went so far as to come up with unfounded suspicions of mental handicaps. Every one of them grabbed at whatever they could as a reason to refuse the girl, and none of them took a moment to consider the girl herself. Daikichi was possibly the worst equipped to raise a child, but he was absolutely the only person there who looked at Rin as a six-year-old human child who needed someone to care for her, while everyone else looked at her as a burden and a mark of shame that their grandfather had left them with. If it had been a legitimate child who they'd known about, like Reina, they would've said similar things but acted as if they felt that someone needed to take her. Their behavior towards taking Rin was no better than if they'd been discussing how to pay a mountain of debt the old man had left behind. That is why I felt it wrong that the retort was cut, because those people deserved to feel some real shame at how they'd behaved.
It takes about nearly $300,000 to raise a kid to 18 years of age, not counting college expenses. Parents are less happy than couples without one. Parents have worse health conditions, have less happy marriage life, and are more likely to file for divorce than nonparents. Parents are more likely to suffer from depression.

Rearing a child entails serious personal, social, and financial consequences, and people need to consider their responsibilities and their abilities to take on a child. There is no shame in refusing to take on a responsibility that could potentially destroy your mental and financial health. What good will it do for Rin if taking her in would result in divorces?

We don't jump into a water to save a person who is about to drown without first considering our swimming skill. We don't try adopting a kid without considering our abilities in providing her with a suitable and stable home environment.

Now back to our regular scheduled anime program....
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Old 2011-07-08, 12:50   Link #145
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The motivation not to take her draws both from the reality of the situation AND personal bias. It's both a financial burden and a sort of lingering shame to take in Rin, at least in a society like theirs. The thought that probably crossed some of their minds were,

"Why should I have to take up this child, this thing that he left? It's not my responsibility."

After all, Rin is an illegitimate child, thus is seen more as an unwanted burden than a part of the family to be assisted, at least in their minds. A smudge on the family that many wish to be forgotten. Especially so with the grandmother, who feels especially betrayed and tired.

So yes, there were some number crunches going on in their minds, but it's undeniable that personal bias was also a major factor. A personal bias that some people may either find understandable, or outright disgusting as Daichi showed.
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Old 2011-07-08, 12:59   Link #146
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Originally Posted by Zanibas View Post
The motivation not to take her draws both from the reality of the situation AND personal bias. It's both a financial burden and a sort of lingering shame to take in Rin, at least in a society like theirs. The thought that probably crossed some of their minds were,

"Why should I have to take up this child, this thing that he left? It's not my responsibility."

After all, Rin is an illegitimate child, thus is seen more as an unwanted burden than a part of the family to be assisted, at least in their minds. A smudge on the family that many wish to be forgotten. Especially so with the grandmother, who feels especially betrayed and tired.

So yes, there were some number crunches going on in their minds, but it's undeniable that personal bias was also a major factor. A personal bias that some people may either find understandable, or outright disgusting as Daichi showed.
Correct. That's why Daichi is so admirable. He is doing what he preaches.
Unless we have faced the same dilemma, and have taken the same courageous action, we have no right to condemn others for failing to do what Daichi has done.
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Old 2011-07-08, 13:47   Link #147
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Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Well SOMEONE needs to say it.
No, they didn't.
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Old 2011-07-08, 15:13   Link #148
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FINALLY I find something to like from 2011...

It's so heartening that the art of telling a story properly and having a meaningful first episode has not been lost completely. Rin is adorable and amusing, Daikichi is admirable and amusing. This oddball duo are going to be a delight to watch.

Regardless of how this ends, I'm watching this long-term. Thank flock this is already licensed in Australia by Siren Visual before it even started.
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Old 2011-07-08, 15:25   Link #149
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I don't condemn the other relatives for not wanting to bear the responsibility of taking her in, but I do condemn them for the way they treated her while there: as if she didn't exist; as if she was an unnecessary fixture in that house. I mean, did any of them even talk to her or get to know her, or comfort her with the knowledge of her FATHER DYING? If it wasn't for Daichi, she wouldn't have even been able to giver her dad a proper farewell. She might as well have been a ghost to them. And I know it was intentional. "Proper" adults are real good at ignoring the elephant in the room for the sake of less drama. That is until they have no other choice but to face it.

You don't have to decide to raise her on your own, but you really should be more considerate of a child's feelings in such a situation. She is the victim and she is the most vulnerable. And FYI, she still is their relative, whether they like it or not. Talk about selfishness.
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Old 2011-07-08, 16:07   Link #150
Seiryuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipodi View Post
It takes about nearly $300,000 to raise a kid to 18 years of age, not counting college expenses. Parents are less happy than couples without one. Parents have worse health conditions, have less happy marriage life, and are more likely to file for divorce than nonparents. Parents are more likely to suffer from depression.

Rearing a child entails serious personal, social, and financial consequences, and people need to consider their responsibilities and their abilities to take on a child. There is no shame in refusing to take on a responsibility that could potentially destroy your mental and financial health. What good will it do for Rin if taking her in would result in divorces?

We don't jump into a water to save a person who is about to drown without first considering our swimming skill. We don't try adopting a kid without considering our abilities in providing her with a suitable and stable home environment.

Now back to our regular scheduled anime program....
As I said, I'm not saying that they weren't being realistic. I'm saying that it's contemptible because if you actually pay attention, they're not saying all that because they actually care about how well they'd be able to take care of the girl. They don't even really care about the problems of raising her that they are so ready to list out. They aren't refusing because of the issues they mention, they came up with the issues as an excuse to refuse. If they were to look at Rin as a little girl who needs a home, considered the matter and determined that they couldn't do it, that would be FINE. But they had decided from the start that they didn't want to deal with the mess, so they came up with reasons to throw her at someone else. As I'd said, if Haruko was in an accident and someone needed to care for Reina, they'd sit down and SERIOUSLY discuss the matter, and no matter how uncomfortable they were with caring for her, not one of them would ever consider sending her to an orphanage. But with Rin they're insulting her mother, questioning whether she's really her father's daughter at her father's own funeral, and throwing reasons at one another to get rid of the child. At the very least, they could refrain from questioning her paternity while mourning her father's death.

Daikichi is a single man, with a reasonable but highly demanding job that leaves him little time for family, and has more reason than any of the others to claim that he can't take her, but he's also the only person who had the decency to look at Rin and realize that she's no less human than the rest of us, and deserves to have her side considered.

I respect that raising a child is an incredibly massive undertaking, and far too many people go about making children without any intention of having or raising them. But when faced with a child in need like that, you should have the decency to ask yourself what would be best for her, rather than how do I get rid of her. These people put pretty words on it, but really none of them seem to actually look at the matter seriously. An excuse that happens to be realistic and valid is still nothing but an excuse, a bunch of words you stuck together to try and talk your way out of a situation.

I do not condemn anyone for saying that they can't take care of a child. I can honestly say that I'd immdeiately declare in such a situation that I'm totally unfit and incapable of the job. But I'd do so because I know that as things stand I'm not equipped to be able to take care of a kid. I condemn these people because they forgot that they're dealing with a human and backed out simply because they didn't want to deal with it, whether they could or not.

Last edited by Seiryuu; 2011-07-08 at 16:25.
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Old 2011-07-08, 17:33   Link #151
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Well they managed to capture what I used to love about the source so far, hope they can keep it up.

For the love of god only cover the first half please
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Old 2011-07-08, 17:44   Link #152
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Originally Posted by Fawx9 View Post
Well they managed to capture what I used to love about the source so far, hope they can keep it up.

For the love of god only cover the first half please
Ugh... what's wrong with the second half?

And I really liked what I saw in the first episode.

The relatives were more not willing to take Rin in because she was something like a blemish to their family pride than because they couldn't take her in. I do not wish to further elaborate but this is a situation I have seen many a time IRL and it's never pleasant. Economic concern is usually the least of people's worries when it comes to taking in a relative's child. At least most children who go through heinous experiences like that tend to mature really quickly and turn into amiable people much faster than most brats.
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Old 2011-07-08, 18:03   Link #153
ipodi
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Originally Posted by Seiryuu View Post
I do not condemn anyone for saying that they can't take care of a child. I can honestly say that I'd immdeiately declare in such a situation that I'm totally unfit and incapable of the job. But I'd do so because I know that as things stand I'm not equipped to be able to take care of a kid. I condemn these people because they forgot that they're dealing with a human and backed out simply because they didn't want to deal with it, whether they could or not.
I will only address the main point. You made it clear that you would also back out because you couldn't deal with it. The child is not helped by your condemnation, she is helped by Daichi's courage.

You have the right to condemn others for failing to do something courageous only when you yourself are willing to take the courageous action.


In any case, the reactions from the family members are understandable and I am glad that the series has aptly portrayed Daichi's action against that of the other family members.

Last edited by ipodi; 2011-07-08 at 19:27.
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Old 2011-07-08, 19:06   Link #154
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Wow, I was GREATLY impressed with the first episode =03. Fortunately I don't remember too many details of the manga, which made this episode feel more fresh and new. The animation is exactly like the manga's and the detail to the chars personality, particularly Rin's and Dai's was impeccably done. I loved the contrast between Reina's spoiled, child-like behavior against Rin's calm, precocious one. I haven't watched any other show of this season, but this one will be topping my list to watch first thing every week .
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Old 2011-07-08, 20:21   Link #155
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Mm... it was nice and relaxing. I can't say I'm super excited for the show, but it could go to great places. Daikichi's a swell guy, taking in Rin when everyone else was too afraid of being talked about and playing responsibility hot potato.

The premise is definitely fresh, completely far away from the overused cliches that anime is plagued with these days and possibly touching on meaningful issues. I'd assume some of you are vomiting from overexposure to animes featuring yet a bunch of other highschool girls that act too young (or sometimes too old) for their age. But we have none of that here.
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Old 2011-07-08, 21:34   Link #156
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You have the right to condemn others for failing to do something courageous only when you yourself are willing to take the courageous action.
pfff, I have the right to say anything to make myself feel better !
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Old 2011-07-08, 21:50   Link #157
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Wonderful start. Really reminds me of the older Noitamina shows, this one. Ah, to fall in love with this all over again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity
Ugh... what's wrong with the second half?
There is a timeskip, and a major change in tone. Some -- me included -- view that and the events that happened after very unfavorably.

Any explanation less generic than this goes to the manga thread. Honestly I don't think they'll animate the latter part anyway, having so much of the manga to adapt already -- unless this is a two-cour Noitamina series and I wasn't told.

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You have the right to condemn others for failing to do something courageous only when you yourself are willing to take the courageous action.
No, no you don't. That's a logical fallacy and, although at first glance seems emotionally convincing ("hypocrisy"), is more than often used to guilt other people from speaking out their minds.

Is it so hard to see what Seiryuu was condemning the relatives about? That he had a clear problem with unpleasant people talking about a child like she's a debt, a shame, and a burden to be thrown around? Sure his admitted inability to take care of a child is of no more help than the disgusting behavior displayed, but he doesn't have to be a hero to condemn small-mindedness.

[As a side note I wonder what route I would take if presented with such choices. With 100% certainty I will of course not insult a child's human dignity, but the actual choice of taking a child in -- I seriously have no idea. On one hand I am a logical and somewhat cowardly creature, and there are plenty of completely legitimate reasons. What does a 21 years old male know of taking care of a child? What resources can I provide for his or her upbringing? How can I be sure it isn't irresponsible, harmful romanticism that might drive me to take up the chance? Et cetera. On the other hand, from time to time I surprised myself by just jumping into something stubbornly, screw reasons, screw the world, because it was something I needed to do.]

Of course that's all moot because Daikichi is a hero.
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Old 2011-07-08, 22:53   Link #158
ipodi
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No, no you don't. That's a logical fallacy and, although at first glance seems emotionally convincing ("hypocrisy"), is more than often used to guilt other people from speaking out their minds.
First and foremost, I did not accuse anyone of hypocrisy. I would not turn this forum into a soapbox for me to personally attack any poster's character. Hypocrisy is a pretense that one has more virtue than he or she actually does. I did not accuse Seiryuu of pretending to be someone or to be possessing certain qualities that he doesn't have. In fact, I commend him for speaking so frankly about what he would have done had he face the same situation. I simply said no one has the right to condemn others for failing to make the personal sacrifices that they themselves are unprepared or unwilling to make.

I make no judgments on Seiryuu's character based on what he has said thus far in this thread.

Quote:
Is it so hard to see what Seiryuu was condemning the relatives about? That he had a clear problem with unpleasant people talking about a child like she's a debt, a shame, and a burden to be thrown around? Sure his admitted inability to take care of a child is of no more help than the disgusting behavior displayed, but he doesn't have to be a hero to condemn small-mindedness.
A child is a burden. An illegitimate child brings shame to many families, particularly in Asian societies. This is not small mindedness. This is a fact.

I mentioned in the upstream that a child could bring to many negative consequences to parents. They include worsening health, deteriorating marriage, increasing unhappiness, and of course, serious financial burdens. People who are willing to raise a child should be prepared for these consequences. Refusing to take on a burden such as raising another person's child is, in my opinion, prudence, not small-mindedness.

People who are willing to assume the legal guardianship of an unfortunate child deserve my utmost respect. People who refuse to take on such responsibility deserve my understanding.
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Old 2011-07-08, 23:20   Link #159
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ipodi, you provided an arugment and Irenicus gave a perfectly valid counterpoint to it. I don't think he was accusing you of accusing Seiryuu of anything. He was only establishing that the argument that goes "don't speak out against people for not doing what you wouldn't do yourself" is a fallacy that is more often than not used to to force people into a corner than for anything good. From what I can see. And I agree with him although I certainly agree with you in so far as that children are indeed burden and that refusing to be burdened with a child is a perfectly understandable decision. However, in this show in particular, most of the people were refusing the child not because they didn't have the resources to deal with it but because they considered her a shame to the family pride. And they were very rude to her. It's still fine and dandy for you to sympathize with them because that's your choice but telling Seiryuu he has no right to condemn them with all this in regards is uncalled for and pushing your boundaries.
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Old 2011-07-09, 00:11   Link #160
Irenicus
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Originally Posted by ipodi View Post
I simply said no one has the right to condemn others for failing to make the personal sacrifices that they themselves are unprepared or unwilling to make.
And that's exactly what I was disputing you on. Forsaken_Infinity got it right.

Oh, and it goes without saying of course that I'm certainly not accusing you of anything else. That would be rude of me, very.

Quote:
I mentioned in the upstream that a child could bring to many negative consequences to parents. They include worsening health, deteriorating marriage, increasing unhappiness, and of course, serious financial burdens. People who are willing to raise a child should be prepared for these consequences. Refusing to take on a burden such as raising another person's child is, in my opinion, prudence, not small-mindedness.

People who are willing to assume the legal guardianship of an unfortunate child deserve my utmost respect. People who refuse to take on such responsibility deserve my understanding.
But they weren't refusing Rin because they didn't have the means. They said that was the reason, but it couldn't be more obvious they were not just pushing away responsibility but they do it because they think she's somehow worth less, is a living shame, somehow of questionable parentage, her mother's apparently a bad woman, whatever, and they were gossiping about it at her father's very funeral. They rejected her not because of the weight of responsibility but, yes, small-mindedness. And Seiryuu was very clear that he was unimpressed with that attitude. He was not, I think, making claim that they should have taken her in even if they don't want to (he clarified as such in his latest post).

And the shame to family thing? Screw that. Daikichi agrees (for great justice!).
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