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Old 2011-01-31, 17:01   Link #241
panzerfan
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To be rather exact, Kaijo would have fared better by stating that it is not a matter in the definition of contract that differs from Kyubey to any legal contract, but rather that Kyubey's Puella Magi agreement and ordinary contracts differ in the matter of damages and Contra proferentem. There exists no issue regarding enforcement of Kyubey's agreement with that of his consignee, but there is no court of arbitration nor is a mean to set aside unenforceable contracts available.

Kyubey's agreement is what is known as implied binding agreements, with the consignee merely agreeing being sufficient for Kyubey to deliver his contractual obligations. Trouble is, there is no way for an individual to soundly argue nor is there an avenue to even argue in the first place that the contract is unfair to the consignee, nor can one question if the consignee has been duly informed of the contractual terms.

Come to think of it, I would like to see a civic suit between Kyubey and a magical girl victim animated.

@FlavorOfLife: Ahh. Think not of the how. Do not be too concerned at all with how that is actually done. Implied binding agreements legally does not concern itself with the process of how it is done at all, so long as it appears that there's an exchange taking place. Fairness or not is irrelevant.
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2011-01-31 at 17:27.
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Old 2011-01-31, 17:11   Link #242
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
You'll note that's a question that several of us have postulated. We know that some MG's would really like having that power, but you're right; there would be girls that wouldn't want to fight anymore. If one could simply stop anytime, then Homura wouldn't be so desperate to stop Madoka from becoming one. Several of us have postulated theories.

Let's hope the writers answer the question.
At last. Your answer was already what i pointed out when i said. "The problem lies with the fact that we don't know WHY the grief seeds are needed. If the common guess that its used to prevent becoming a witch well, totoum already addressed this"

Seriously, it was getting very taxing.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Lawyer contracts are not Kyube contracts, thus there's no analogy.
We'll see...

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I'll take your own reasoning: show me an attack leaving the witches world and heading into the real world.^^
Sure, show me a mahou shoujo whose wish was "unharmed from witch attacks" and i'll show you the beam attack.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
1 is basically 100% in scientific terms. Let me explain it this way. I put you in a long room, and tell you that there is a prize when you reach the other side. However, I tell you the max distance you can ever move at once, is halfway. So, if the room is 100 feet long, you can only move a max of 50 feet in the first trip. Then 25 feet. Then 12 and a half feet.

See where I'm going?

Mathematically speaking, you'll never reach the far end of the room, because you can always divide a number in half, thus leaving you with some distance between you and the wall. Practically speaking, though, you'll get close enough to touch it.

This is what the theorem represents, since you can't actually reach infinity. You can, however, travel far enough to reach it for all practical intents and purposes. This is what I wanted to illustrate with my poker example. If I deal you five cards at random, the odds that you'll get a royal flush is incredibly low. However, if I can sit there and deal a hand to you over and over for as long as I like, eventually I'm going to deal you a royal flush. The chance goes up as time passes.

Understand? The more time passes, and the more individual MG's make wishes (and we have no idea how long this has been going on), the greater the chance that one MG will think about how she can end the sad system with a single wish. Or even if it takes more than one wish, she can seek out other potential MG's, explain the situation, and see if they'll help add a wish that can further correct it.


You should know what i meant by whether 0.9 has a chance of failure.

But then let me be dumb and ask you AGAIN the following questions

i) When can you say FOR SURE that someone would have made such a wish?
ii) How much time would it take?

I anxiously await the answer
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Old 2011-01-31, 17:20   Link #243
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Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
Kyubey's agreement is what is known as implied binding agreements, with the consignee merely agreeing being sufficient for Kyubey to deliver his contractual obligations.
Even this cannot be certain for now. We did not see the actual contract process. Kyubei is held by some rules as that is known, else physically forcing Madoka to agree through hostage taking of her immediate family would be sufficient.

The problems lies in the exact rules. Some of those rules should become clear as the series progresses (possibly further fleshed out with the manga) but i seriously doubt any Contra proferentem will be found inside.
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Old 2011-01-31, 17:27   Link #244
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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
At last. Your answer was already what i pointed out when i said. "The problem lies with the fact that we don't know WHY the grief seeds are needed. If the common guess that its used to prevent becoming a witch well, totoum already addressed this"
You misunderstand. The seeds aren't "needed" per se; they are simply used to replenish magic power. The girl's magic has to come from somewhere, after all. Most MG shows have magic coming from around them, or not explained at all, so this is an interesting take. MG's function like guerilla soldiers, scavenging weapons and ammo off their defeated foes.

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Sure, show me a mahou shoujo whose wish was "unharmed from witch attacks" and i'll show you the beam attack.
You really wanna go this route, because we could end up going in circles? This is not the way to prove your point.

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You should know what i meant by whether 0.9 has a chance of failure.
A 0.9 would mean 90% chance. I'm sure all of us here have done the decimal to percentage conversions in a math class. So yes, it does have a chance of failure; a 10% chance.

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But then let me be dumb and ask you AGAIN the following questions

i) When can you say FOR SURE that someone would have made such a wish?
ii) How much time would it take?

I anxiously await the answer
Mathematically speaking, nothing is for sure. But you have to look at it from a certain perspective: someone who walks into a busy freeway, has a 90% chance of being hit by a car or causing an accident. Sure, we can say, "How do you know he'll really be hit?" and I'll answer "I don't."

If you feel confident about the odds of an MG never making that kind of wish, then go play in traffic, or buy a lottery ticket. =)

Statistical probability is an interesting subject, and I'd highly suggest you look it up. I could go on and on about it at length, but not sure it would entirely be appropriate to do so. I've tried to keep it to a fairly short summary, however.
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Old 2011-01-31, 18:03   Link #245
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You misunderstand. The seeds aren't "needed" per se; they are simply used to replenish magic power. The girl's magic has to come from somewhere, after all. Most MG shows have magic coming from around them, or not explained at all, so this is an interesting take. MG's function like guerilla soldiers, scavenging weapons and ammo off their defeated foes.
Um i did not misunderstand at all. I recognised the theory from the facts but what you're saying is ALL theory. By recognizing that what you said is theory, you should have understood.

Sorry i really do not have the patience to continue to prod logic on this

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You really wanna go this route, because we could end up going in circles? This is not the way to prove your point.
Eh, you do know that the shooting beams is an example of how i would simply grant your wish as you worded it? If you wish me to prove an example, show me where the series provided the wish.

This is not circular logic. It is demostrating which point is preceeding which.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
A 0.9 would mean 90% chance. I'm sure all of us here have done the decimal to percentage conversions in a math class. So yes, it does have a chance of failure; a 10% chance.

Mathematically speaking, nothing is for sure. But you have to look at it from a certain perspective: someone who walks into a busy freeway, has a 90% chance of being hit by a car or causing an accident. Sure, we can say, "How do you know he'll really be hit?" and I'll answer "I don't."

If you feel confident about the odds of an MG never making that kind of wish, then go play in traffic, or buy a lottery ticket. =)

Statistical probability is an interesting subject, and I'd highly suggest you look it up. I could go on and on about it at length, but not sure it would entirely be appropriate to do so. I've tried to keep it to a fairly short summary, however.
Thus your certainity must be removed unless infinite time is factored. Note that this is the most obvious problem with your argument.

Next is subjectivity. WHEN should the system have been broken down by such a wish (aka because they made random wishes until it hit). 50%? 75%? 25%? 1%?

Then we have the component pool: Mahou shoujos.
i) Not all people become mahou shojos. Shoujos refer to girls of a certain age hence ringfence would be females of a yound age. It has been referenced that magical potential is needed.

ii) Taking the estimate of ALL humans that every lived is 107 billion incuding 8000 BC (unknown if MS were there)
http://www.prb.org/Articles/2002/How...edonEarth.aspx

iii) Female to male ratio is approximately 50/50 = approximately 53.5 billion

If we reduce those that are not shojo (7–18) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8...ote-Daijisen-2
and placing the average mortality age from 8000 BC to now as 35, the total population goes to 18.4 billion

If ratio of MS to normal girls is 1 to 1000 then total number from 8000 BC is 18.4 million.

~18.4 million is sufficient to reach the subjective ratio mentioned?
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Old 2011-01-31, 18:25   Link #246
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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
Um i did not misunderstand at all. I recognised the theory from the facts but what you're saying is ALL theory. By recognizing that what you said is theory, you should have understood.
Um, this isn't theory. Mami says in episode 2 point blank: "The seeds replenish magical power." It's one of the few facts we have. Shall I quote you a time stamp so you can go look at it yourself?

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~18.4 million is sufficient to reach the subjective ratio mentioned?
Speaking as a scientist, I'd say "yes" with a large degree of certainty.

Look at it this way: the odds of winning the lottery aren't too good. But someone wins the lottery, just due to the sheer number of tickets. And it's won over and over. That's statistical probability in action. As the number of tickets goes up, the odds that someone will have picked the correct number increases. Eventually it gets high enough that it's extremely likely to happen.
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Old 2011-01-31, 18:57   Link #247
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Um, this isn't theory. Mami says in episode 2 point blank: "The seeds replenish magical power." It's one of the few facts we have. Shall I quote you a time stamp so you can go look at it yourself?
You're going circular again.

Here is my previous answer to the same thing
"So, why restore that power? You got your wish? Why need your power?
Oh before the inevitably obvious answer from you and needing another post to jog the logic -> Why fight Witches? Why not run away?"

The final answer is you don't know. Do you want to to keep cutting and pasting the 3 posts again and again?

My first post SHOULD have already pointed out the second post by implication if you actually stopped to think.


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Speaking as a scientist, I'd say "yes" with a large degree of certainty.

Look at it this way: the odds of winning the lottery aren't too good. But someone wins the lottery, just due to the sheer number of tickets. And it's won over and over. That's statistical probability in action. As the number of tickets goes up, the odds that someone will have picked the correct number increases. Eventually it gets high enough that it's extremely likely to happen.
Speaking as a doctor of mathematics (which unfortunately cannot be proven on the internet), I'd say "no" with a large degree of certainity.

Should be obvious eh?

Sorry but 18.4 million is peanuts. The monkey typewriter example was based on 50 keys of the typewriter, doing a 1/50x1/50x1/50, etc

There are 171,476 words in the Oxford English Dictionary http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/page/93

Do the math yourself
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Old 2011-01-31, 19:01   Link #248
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Let's hope the writers answer the question.
I guess a difference between you and I is that I seem to have more faith in the writer than you do,then again,maybe you want to remain prudent so that you're not disapointed later?

Or maybe you'll need more question answered than I do to be satisfied?At what point do you accept some questions to not be answered?
For exemple do you expect an answer to the question "why does kyuube only contract with girls and not boys?",everyone knows they're watching a magical girl show,so that's pretty much the reason but do you expect a "in universe" answer to it?


You do bring up some very valid points about the probability of girls making a wish that breaks the system.
It got me thinking,and what follows is pure speculation

It seems to me that not every girl can see kyuube,what if what makes you more likely to see him is the fact your not satisfied with your life?Meaning a girl perfectly happy would never see him.
A girl not happy with her situation is a lot less likely to make a wish that "breaks the system" because she'll probably not think that far and just wish something that improves her condition,the most extreme exemple of this would be Mami,Kyuube appeared before her just as she was dying so it's normal that sh'd think of wanting to live and not something beyond that.A random exemple would be him appearing in front of a girl who's been blind her whole life and can't take it anymore,odds are she'll think of "I want to see" instead of anything that "breaks the system".

So under this system odds a girl would make a wish that "breaks the system" are quite diminished,but definatly not null. That brings us to Madoka,we've heard several times she's special,the reason could be that she's one of the few girls that's able to see kyuube and want to make a wish that breaks the system.
At first you'd think that madoka would have everything to be happy,she's got a nice family with parents that get along and love her,there's also no money problem,I'm sure most people would be satisfied with that,but here's the thing,she feels like she's not making a difference in this world because she can't help other people ,that makes her unhappy with her life and therefore she can see kyuube,but unlike others that are more likely to make "selfish" wishes , she's more likely to make a wish that "breaks the system" like you've described before,that's what makes her special.

Wow...well odds are this is completely offtrack,but since I typed it I might as well post it
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Old 2011-01-31, 19:25   Link #249
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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
You're going circular again.

Here is my previous answer to the same thing
"So, why restore that power? You got your wish? Why need your power?
Oh before the inevitably obvious answer from you and needing another post to jog the logic -> Why fight Witches? Why not run away?"

The final answer is you don't know. Do you want to to keep cutting and pasting the 3 posts again and again?

My first post SHOULD have already pointed out the second post by implication if you actually stopped to think.
What are you trying to say, then?

The MG's get a wish granted as incentive to be an MG. And to keep fighting as one, the incentive are the grief seeds that restore magical power. The show, and some people here, are trying to lay out the fact that this is dangerous, dirty, thankless work... so why would anyone continue?

I presumed you were saying that you didn't understand why the grief seeds would exist. It would seem to motivate some MG's who desire power, but obviously not all of them.

Personally, I don't feel the show has done a good job showing us what it is trying to tell us.

Quote:
Speaking as a doctor of mathematics (which unfortunately cannot be proven on the internet), I'd say "no" with a large degree of certainity.

Should be obvious eh?

Sorry but 18.4 million is peanuts. The monkey typewriter example was based on 50 keys of the typewriter, doing a 1/50x1/50x1/50, etc

There are 171,476 words in the Oxford English Dictionary http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/page/93

Do the math yourself
Um, you can't take the monkey theorem so literally. And if you thought I was referring to monkeys, then rest at ease, because I wasn't. I was referring to the odds of 1 girl in 18.4 million as having the thought, "Hey, this system sucks; can I wish it all away somehow?"

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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I guess a difference between you and I is that I seem to have more faith in the writer than you do,then again,maybe you want to remain prudent so that you're not disapointed later?
Actually, I'm not sure if I have faith in the writers, as I don't know them well enough to make that call. All I know is that they've introduced a wish system, without explaining its rules and limits. That's generally not a good thing to do, unless you're setting it up as having no limits for a specific reason. But it does require that you make your characters too dumb to live.

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Or maybe you'll need more question answered than I do to be satisfied?At what point do you accept some questions to not be answered?
For exemple do you expect an answer to the question "why does kyuube only contract with girls and not boys?",everyone knows they're watching a magical girl show,so that's pretty much the reason but do you expect a "in universe" answer to it?
Heh, when the series is over, I don't expect anymore questions to be answered, unless they want to do "Word of God" type stuff, but I don't consider that good storytelling. A story should stand well enough on its own.

Quote:
You do bring up some very valid points about the probability of girls making a wish that breaks the system.
Thanks.^^

Quote:
It seems to me that not every girl can see kyuube,what if what makes you more likely to see him is the fact your not satisfied with your life?Meaning a girl perfectly happy would never see him.
A girl not happy with her situation is a lot less likely to make a wish that "breaks the system" because she'll probably not think that far and just wish something that improves her condition,the most extreme exemple of this would be Mami,Kyuube appeared before her just as she was dying so it's normal that sh'd think of wanting to live and not something beyond that.A random exemple would be him appearing in front of a girl who's been blind her whole life and can't take it anymore,odds are she'll think of "I want to see" instead of anything that "breaks the system".
That is possible, but all we've been told so far, is that only girls with magic can see Kyube. Now, he could be deliberately targeting girls who might not be willing to break the system... but that assumes a near god-like ability to read people and know their thoughts.

I don't think Madoka will break the system, considering she supposedly does end up becoming an MG. We just don't know the how or why of it. But we'll see. The only reason Madoka has been seen as special so far, is that Kyube senses a lot of magic power in her, and Homura has sought to dissuade her, for whatever reason.

Anyway, it's an interesting theory, like most here, so it's worth considering. I myself just toss up theories, but I'm not married to them, heh.
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Old 2011-01-31, 20:19   Link #250
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snip..
Sorry it is too taxing to keep having to explain things when i see it ends up in circular posts. I'll just wait for the series to end and do the
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Old 2011-01-31, 20:33   Link #251
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I think the issue is that Kyube is looking for girls like Mami and Sayaka who are overwhelmed with desperation. People in such a state aren't going to make a wish that breaks the Puella Magi system because they are all too interested in fulfilling their desires. Madoka has, or had, the potential to be different since she was ready to take on the burden of becoming a magical girl without possessing a strong yearning for anything else. Mami's death has changed things, since Madoka can (for all we know right now) decide to wish her back.
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Old 2011-01-31, 20:48   Link #252
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Of course, more could be introduced to make it appear worse than it is, but I won't speculate as to what, because my imagination can come up with hundreds of ways to say, "It Got Worse.".
we need more people like you in the world of fan fiction sir.


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Sorry it is too taxing to keep having to explain things when i see it ends up in circular posts. I'll just wait for the series to end and do the
These are my exact same thoughts...
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Old 2011-01-31, 20:59   Link #253
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we need more people like you in the world of fan fiction sir.
I already write Nanoha fanfiction, and if you want an example of just how dark I can get, I suggest you read Future Tense. You can find it on ff.net under my name of "Kaijo".

I'm not usually dark, but I do flirt with it occasionally. ;p

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Old 2011-01-31, 21:14   Link #254
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It could simply be a side effect of her wish if this is a world reset/time loop OR it could be simply that Mahou Shoujo do not become witches OR it could be that Homura knows Madoka's personality and exposing that particular part would have the reverse effect of driving her to it.
I think you missed my point.

My point is simply this: Homura isn't getting into many specifics, period.

If either of the theories discussed on this thread is the right one, Homura isn't letting the cat out of the bag on it. As far as I can tell, the only one that Homura could be interpreted as even hinting at, is the one that Jimmy C brought up.

So, in other words, saying "If you were right about this theory, Homura would reveal it to Madoka" just doesn't fly given you could use that argument against either of the theories brought up in this thread. I specifically cited the "magical girls become witches" theory simply because that seems to be the most popular one right now (although I myself am not fond of it, I'll admit).

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I hope you are prepared to be startled even more when your idea is exposed.
... What do you even mean by that?
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Old 2011-02-01, 05:47   Link #255
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Old 2011-02-01, 15:54   Link #256
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Spoiler for Whats this text says?:
Here's /a/'s translation of this. I don't guarantee accuracy:

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At this point the opening looks like an amazing fraud (laughs).
Trasformation is not easy, but I wanted the viewer to feel the weight of "becoming a magical girl".
After all, it's the story until making that choice. The viewers may be confused, but luckily I think we can do it because we don't have to sell the merchandising. If this were a project with typical sponsors, we'd get slapped around if we didn't make her transform in the first episode (laughs). But since we're fortunately not stuck with that type of project this time, we're proceeding along the lines of "let's do everything we can get away with this time!". Oh, and what about Kyubee? I think he's the key character in this work......
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:28   Link #257
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Here's /a/'s translation of this. I don't guarantee accuracy:
Quote:
At this point the opening looks like an amazing fraud (laughs).
Trasformation is not easy, but I wanted the viewer to feel the weight of "becoming a magical girl".
After all, it's the story until making that choice. The viewers may be confused, but luckily I think we can do it because we don't have to sell the merchandising. If this were a project with typical sponsors, we'd get slapped around if we didn't make her transform in the first episode (laughs). But since we're fortunately not stuck with that type of project this time, we're proceeding along the lines of "let's do everything we can get away with this time!". Oh, and what about Kyubee? I think he's the key character in this work......
Thanks for the translation, very interesting. It's funny, too.

2 things:
1) I'm preparing myself to be trolled in some way. "do everything we can get away with this time!" sounds extremely daring. I expect to feel the very deconstruction of this 'magical girl' anime with all I got.
2) Kyubey and key character? Well, that much was clear. "In a good or bad way?" is the question. So far I thought there was always that gloomy aura around that freak but the more I think about it the more I realize I'm being more and more biased. So now I will go try have some faith in that little bastard and see what 'good' he can do/support.
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:46   Link #258
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2) Kyubey and key character? Well, that much was clear. "In a good or bad way?" is the question.
The real question is, is he saying the truth, or just trolling. If it's true and Kyubey is the key, then I don't expect him to be on Modaka's side. Why? because that would make him a helper, a supporting role. Most likely, the key character would be, in this setting, an antagonist. Just my opinion.
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:58   Link #259
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
The real question is, is he saying the truth, or just trolling. If it's true and Kyubey is the key, then I don't expect him to be on Modaka's side. Why? because that would make him a helper, a supporting role. Most likely, the key character would be, in this setting, an antagonist. Just my opinion.
Interesting, but here's another point of view.

Consider that Kyube might be limited in what he can say and do. He already said he can't even suggest something for the girls to wish for... a fairly big flag. What is interesting is not what that says, but what it implies: There's an important wish that he hopes a girl will wish for, but he is forbidden to hint or mention it at all.

So consider that if Kyube is the key to everything, it might not be by his own will. He's just a raft floating down the river, and needs someone else to steer. But once the right person, ie Madoka, discovers the truth, they can more fully use Kyube for good purposes. Right now, he's just a genie.

What if the wish is to free the genie from the lamp?

If his existence somehow causes witches, then wishing him free would stop new witches from being born. Thus Madoka becomes a magical girl to fight the remaining witches, and possibly in time, other magical girls who are upset at her for ending the system (because that means no more magic).

This magic has to be coming from somewhere. Kyube gives some to a new MG with their soul gem, but MG's refill it from witches. Thus, if you can stop the flow of magic into the human world (and perhaps Kyube is the source of this), then you can ultimately end the system of witches and magical girls. Once all the magic is spent, that's it.
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Old 2011-02-01, 17:09   Link #260
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
This magic has to be coming from somewhere. Kyube gives some to a new MG with their soul gem, but MG's refill it from witches. Thus, if you can stop the flow of magic into the human world (and perhaps Kyube is the source of this), then you can ultimately end the system of witches and magical girls. Once all the magic is spent, that's it.
Interesting. So, in this scenario, he would be the cause of everything, but he would also hope to be stopped, right?

Again, it's interesting, but I just can't see it. If Urobuchi isn't trolling, then the story is more about Madoka's decision itself (whether she becomes MG or not), rather than the wish. Like I said, in this setting, the only key role I see, besides Madoka's, is that of whoever opposes Madoka's decision, whenever she makes one.

On the other hand, if Urobuchi is trolling (highly possible), then your take is more likely, IMO. Although, I still don't think it's going to go that way.
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