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Old 2011-02-04, 07:09   Link #301
Myssa Rei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Well, if she has reality-warping or reconstruction power,
Not necessarily. It could be another instance of Shaft's budget-cutting measures. Remember that weird part where we had two lines of cars move at the same speed?
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Old 2011-02-04, 07:14   Link #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
Not necessarily. It could be another instance of Shaft's budget-cutting measures. Remember that weird part where we had two lines of cars move at the same speed?
But if you're cutting budget,why not just animate one car on each side?
Probably doesn't mean much beyond shaft knowing we're all paranoid and throwing random stuff at us.
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Old 2011-02-04, 07:29   Link #303
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Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
Not necessarily. It could be another instance of Shaft's budget-cutting measures. Remember that weird part where we had two lines of cars move at the same speed?
Then it would be the opposite.

It's harder to have everything changed than keeping the same background, after all.
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Old 2011-02-04, 07:45   Link #304
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If I were to presume that the speculation of Homura being a tired and jaded version of Madoka from the future coming back to stop everything from occurring, I actually suspect that the entire process may be an indirect eternal cycle of the universe being forced to recur on itself. A recurring universe possibly consisting of an endless cycle of Madokas becoming Homuras, wishing in each cycle to restart the process and try to stop her earlier self from entering the system and becoming cursed inside an eternal circle of trial.

In essence my apparent belief comes from how it may be possible that this entire cycle has been occurring on for god knows how many times already; it may be possible that this isn't the first time a Homura tried to stop a Madoka from entering the cursed existence of an MG. This could be a few dozens to a few hundreds to maybe even thousands. Minor events may be different but the core is the same:

The current universe's Homura fails to save the Madoka of that universe -> Homura dies/injured in the process (and/or possibly informing Madoka of the truth) -> Madoka enters her pact with her wish of restoring the past and stopping herself -> Becomes the next jaded Homura -> Homura restores time to a different universe before she becomes an MG -> She tries to stop Madoka from becoming an MG.

Fundamentally it has the same notion of eternal recurrence, albeit a shorter one with one person initiating the return with some or full memories of the previous occurrence (Homura) in an effort to stop a distinct event from occurring and, in short, alter the fate of that time frame's history and break free from the bond that shackles them and forces them to relive it over and over again. You may have seen it in the Xenosaga series and Higurashi.

Madoka's first dream, and I suspect succeeding dreams, suggest that she is starting to either recall a distant memory she should not otherwise even know in this current time frame, or she's starting to see omens of the future. As it stands I have this feeling that this is an anomaly: if Madoka were to tell Homura about her dreams and Homura were to realize that she herself did not possess such dreams or memories of the past, then this indicates itself to be a new development, something that is a new development in the cycle. Assuming that this is indeed a recurring cycle and not just one reset, then it is indicative that memories are crossing over each reset and allowing the next reincarnations preemptive knowledge of events and increasing the chance that the cycle could be broken.

The abject and ludicrous amount of power that Homura possibly possesses though indicates that she's been doing this WAAAY longer than everyone else, which can support of course that she might have been doing this for more than one cycle, either as the same Homura or the next Madoka-Homura incarnation that inherits the capacities of the previous one.

Last edited by MeoTwister5; 2011-02-04 at 08:09.
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Old 2011-02-04, 09:27   Link #305
BaKaBaKaOtaKu
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tbh, i've actually thought of all these to be an unstoppable hellish cycle of doom before as well. but never tried to really ponder over it since it might cause some of my braincells to explode. L0L. but pretty much, i am agreeing to this theory. it's akin to kannazuki no miko but w/ the hope of breaking the cycle. KnM never broke it..hence, 'we all fall in love all over again'.. i am hoping madoka ends differently from it.XD
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Old 2011-02-04, 09:55   Link #306
BaKaBaKaOtaKu
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WHOA! 0_o srsly man, your theory is REALLY MAKING SENSE! it's so close to being a FACT that i think i had my mind blown!! xD Yes, the physical differences they had is the only hole to it.but man, i'm giving you 100O stars with this awesome speculation. i'm just kinda sad that my homura-madoka fantasy just got trashed. L0L. so there's really no nanofate here.

EXCELLENT WORK Triple_R! xD
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Old 2011-02-04, 10:20   Link #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Madoka's first dream, and I suspect succeeding dreams, suggest that she is starting to either recall a distant memory she should not otherwise even know in this current time frame, or she's starting to see omens of the future. As it stands I have this feeling that this is an anomaly: if Madoka were to tell Homura about her dreams and Homura were to realize that she herself did not possess such dreams or memories of the past, then this indicates itself to be a new development, something that is a new development in the cycle. Assuming that this is indeed a recurring cycle and not just one reset, then it is indicative that memories are crossing over each reset and allowing the next reincarnations preemptive knowledge of events and increasing the chance that the cycle could be broken.
Sorta reminds me of the 'Endless Eight' cycle if you put it like that. If time was somehow being reset over and over and Madoka somehow finally remembers one event that might lead to what will happen in the future. Then I have a bad feeling about the other magical girls like Sayaka, we din't see them in the dream so that could indicate girls dying out every 2-4 episodes till Homura and Madoka are left?

Kyuubey has always been interested in Madoka because she somehow has a hidden power within her. Is this probably due to her wishing for time to reset possibly? That she somehow gains more and more power stored up inside her with each time reset?

Quote:
The abject and ludicrous amount of power that Homura possibly possesses though indicates that she's been doing this WAAAY longer than everyone else, which can support of course that she might have been doing this for more than one cycle, either as the same Homura or the next Madoka-Homura incarnation that inherits the capacities of the previous one.
This also clarifies things about magical girls not aging after they wish if Homura was in this sort of deal for a long time.
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Old 2011-02-04, 10:39   Link #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu View Post
@Triple_R

WHOA! 0_o srsly man, your theory is REALLY MAKING SENSE! it's so close to being a FACT that i think i had my mind blown!! xD Yes, the physical differences they had is the only hole to it.but man, i'm giving you 100O stars with this awesome speculation. i'm just kinda sad that my homura-madoka fantasy just got trashed. L0L. so there's really no nanofate here.

EXCELLENT WORK Triple_R! xD
Thanks. I put a lot of thought into it, so I'm glad at least a poster or two were fond of my theory.

The main question with "Homura = future Madoka" is if it's part of an Endless Eight-style vicious time cycle, or if this is just future Madoka/Homura's one shot. I'm definitely keeping an open mind there.

For now, though, I think I will go with "Homura = future Madoka" until/unless something comes up in a future episode to rule it out. It really does fit quite nicely, imo.

Oh, and for what it's worth, maybe Homura is into "self-cest", lol.
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Old 2011-02-04, 10:52   Link #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
One speculation I'm given a lot of thought to, but haven't really committed to yet, is that Homura is older, future Madoka. Here's some reasons why:

Spoiler for Spoilers to save space, and sense I talk a lot about the recent Episode 5:
Ha! The Archer theory comes back. A lot of us have been thinking about it since the very first episode, and each passing weeks only reinforced my belief in this theory. My only problem with it remains the same I voiced a month ago: it's too obvious. Way too obvious. Granted, it might simply be because Fate/Stay Night has already set a strong precedent that I feel this way.


I largely agree with your interpretation, but there is a point I see differently:

Quote:
Homura then tries to take Mami's place in that fight from Episode 3. She does this because she wants to prevent Mami's death (as it occurred in the original timeline from the exact same fight). But because Homura has been so hardened by what she has seen in life, seeing Mami's death again doesn't affect her as much as it did the first time she saw it.
I don't think Mami's death occurred during this exact same fight in the original timeline. Why? Because Homura seemed genuinely surprised by Mami's death. Then, if Mami alone couldn't defeat Charlotte, what happened in the original timeline? Perhaps Madoka saved her butt. Without Homura's warnings, Madoka was likely less reluctant to become a magical girl in the original timeline, thus it's not far-fetched to think she could have contracted earlier, just in time to save Mami's life. This might have been the true reason Homura didn't want Mami to face Charlotte.

Quote:
Homura doesn't look a lot like Madoka, while Archer did hold some features that were a lot like Shirou's. If Homura is future Madoka, then it means that Madoka really let her hair grow out, changed her hair color, and somehow changed her eye color. Of course, none of this is impossible, but you'd have to wonder why future Madoka would go for the appearance change.
Only reason I can think of is hiding her identity. You could argue that disclosing her identity to Madoka would strengthen her argument, but it might also have the opposite effect on her. And don't forget she can use magic... it shouldn't be too hard to radically alter her appearance thanks to it.
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Old 2011-02-04, 10:57   Link #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Oh, and for what it's worth, maybe Homura is into "self-cest", lol.
Suddenly the transformation sequence in the OP makes a whole lot more sense
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Old 2011-02-04, 11:10   Link #311
Arkeus
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Funky theory time: Homura's bland way of speaking comes from her never being a human, but her being Madoka's familiar (the same way a witch can have a familiar).

Given that she is a construct, it would make sense that her power has to do with reconstructing.
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Old 2011-02-04, 11:16   Link #312
MeoTwister5
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Triple_R's theory does sort of reinforce the possibility that she's been doing this for a long time and possibly even more than once. I have some doubts that one reset could turn Madoka into a very cold-hearted and pragmatic Homura in one reset. Hell, it's even possible that my eternal recurrence theory suggests that Mami freaking DIES in every cycle and she hasn't decided to figure out a way to stop it, possibly believing that perhaps every death of Mami in every cycle helps sway her away from being an MG.

Then again, if she's been doing this for a while, then clearly it hasn't worked well enough as she wanted.
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Old 2011-02-04, 11:30   Link #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Ha! The Archer theory comes back. A lot of us have been thinking about it since the very first episode, and each passing weeks only reinforced my belief in this theory. My only problem with it remains the same I voiced a month ago: it's too obvious. Way too obvious. Granted, it might simply be because Fate/Stay Night has already set a strong precedent that I feel this way.
I know what you mean. Either Homura is future Madoka, or this is all a case of misdirection, where Urobuchi is carefully and intentionally trying to get viewers to think that Homura is future Madoka, while he hides the reality of the situation for a big twist.

However, I honestly don't think that this is Urobuchi being intentionally misleading, because like you said, for those who haven't watched Fate/Stay Night, it's not that obvious.


Quote:
I largely agree with your interpretation, but there is a point I see differently:

I don't think Mami's death occurred during this exact same fight in the original timeline. Why? Because Homura seemed genuinely surprised by Mami's death. Then, if Mami alone couldn't defeat Charlotte, what happened in the original timeline? Perhaps Madoka saved her butt. Without Homura's warnings, Madoka was likely less reluctant to become a magical girl in the original timeline, thus it's not far-fetched to think she could have contracted earlier, just in time to save Mami's life. This might have been the true reason Homura didn't want Mami to face Charlotte.
Interesting take. It would also explain Homura's harsh reaction to Sayaka telling her to give the Grief Seed back. Homura may resent how Sayaka didn't become a magical girl instead of her (original Madoka) back when Mami needed help in the original timeline.


Quote:
Only reason I can think of is hiding her identity. You could argue that disclosing her identity to Madoka would strengthen her argument, but it might also have the opposite effect on her. And don't forget she can use magic... it shouldn't be too hard to radically alter her appearance thanks to it.
Good points.


Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Suddenly the transformation sequence in the OP makes a whole lot more sense
Yep, big time, lol.
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Old 2011-02-04, 11:52   Link #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Funky theory time: Homura's bland way of speaking comes from her never being a human, but her being Madoka's familiar (the same way a witch can have a familiar).

Given that she is a construct, it would make sense that her power has to do with reconstructing.
The cat from the OP right? I think it was mentioned some pages back.

Personally i think her manner of speaking is a way to protect Madoka. She doesn't want Madoka to feel attached to her and later feel a need to be a mahou shoujo to save her. Probably she will feel its ok if Madoka hates her though it would hurt.
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Old 2011-02-04, 12:03   Link #315
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Yeah that black cat from the OP intrigues me,it shows up twice but it doesn't look magical at all though.

And we really have really no info about it so far.
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Old 2011-02-04, 12:07   Link #316
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well, I'm starting to hate Kyubey..... XD

It's already clear that the real villain is Kyubey because he won't stop until Madoka became a mahou shoujo
I wonder what will happen if actually Madoka become a mahou shoujo?? Will Kyubey dissappear??
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Old 2011-02-04, 12:33   Link #317
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I actually can't stop thinking about this show, lol. I keep rewatching the OP and parts of various episodes over and over again looking for hints.

After doing so, I have some more speculations (bordering much closer to the "wild" side, I'll admit) that I want to share:

Spoiler for Some speculations based on the OP:


Spoiler for Some speculations based on a rewatch of Episode 2:



So, what do people think of these two wild speculations?
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Old 2011-02-04, 12:45   Link #318
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An endless recursion la Homuraization of Madoka has a strange draw to me personally. The parallel drawn with Emiya Shirou et Archer is quite valid, but please be reminded of Kaijo's cautionary note of cake is cake and that the prima facie differences between Madoka and Homura really does mean exactly that; Homura and Madoka have no relation. Where I lean at this moment, for the matter of clarification is that Gen could potentially echo Fate series...

About the death of Mami, there is no doubt that Homura was surprised, so there exists sufficiently strong evidence that this occurrence was not foreseen for some reason. To add to Triple_R, Homura might have intentionally played to the mental state of Sayaka and Madoka by seizing the grief seed in that fashion as well.

On Homura being a familiar, it can only be speculated if it is established that magical girls can have their independent familiar(s) in this story. Before that point, such is only a notion. Nevertheless, the visual clues within that terribly misleading OP does make one wonder, if only a little, towards this direction.

To the subject matter on that there are 'dark' counterparts to Kyubey, we have equally tabled that Kyubey himself might be a harbinger of curses in equal part to wishes. At the moment, there is nothing to suggest Kyubey working against an opposite for us to come to any definite conclusion whatsoever. For that matter, we do not even know how exactly are curses manifested into witches... so all we can realistically do is to take account of this being a potential development.

So, to answer Triple_R, the matter of Prolog im Himmel interpretation in your theory is further complicated by the fact that our witch in question uses gears as her crown or 'symbol', which Sayaka does not. The analysis of the said witch in Prolog im Himmel has led to doubts that this said witch is indeed Sayaka after all, with the cape and whatnot...

However, this matter has been debated heavily even in speculah threads due to the fact that the magical girls' or witchs' unique identifier being just that, apparently unique. Personally, you have added a decent amount of fuel to the fire of Sayaka being the embodiment of destruction argument, and for that I would say that your points would not be discountable totally at this point.
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2011-02-04 at 13:00. Reason: answering Triple_R
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Old 2011-02-04, 12:56   Link #319
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Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post

To the subject matter on that there are 'dark' counterparts to Kyubey, we have equally tabled that Kyubey himself might be a harbinger of curses in equal part to wishes. At the moment, there is nothing to suggest Kyubey working against an opposite for us to come to any definite conclusion whatsoever. For that matter, we do not even know how exactly are curses manifested into witches... so all we can realistically do is to take account of this being a potential development.
I completely agree. My speculations there are, admittedly, completely wild. And if they're right, it's completely unpredictable if there's an evil opposite to Kyubey, or if Kyubey himself is playing both sides.

I'm actually not that fond of my wild speculation there on an emotional level, as I do like Sayaka a lot, but I am fond of them on an intellectual level. Simply put, I think it would make for a very gripping and interesting story, not that I have much doubt that Madoka Magica will be that anyway.

I also prefer this wild speculation to the perhaps more predictable outcome of Sayaka simply getting killed, and that driving Madoka off the deep end.


Anyway, I'm just throwing it all out there for the sheer fun of talking about this show, lol.
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Old 2011-02-04, 13:05   Link #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
She doesn't try to talk Sayaka into not becoming a magical girl, because she feels that Sayaka is a bit stubborn and won't listen to her.
Interesting on an intellectual "what if" level, but I have to say it partially falls apart here. It should be very clear that Madoka can be equally as stubborn, coming back to the MG idea over and over despite Homura telling her not to. If Homura really wants to prevent all this, then stopping Sayaka or Madoka would do the trick, thus she should be trying to convince Sayaka, too. Sure, it may not work, but you lose nothing for trying. Instead, she does seem to focus on Madoka more.

Although I do have to say, I like your idea of a dark Kyube. It is mentioned that witches are born from curses just like MG's are born from wishes, so this kinda puts the nail in the coffin of "an MG will turn into a witch." There are two sides of a coin being played out here.

It would be incredibly amusing, too, to see the reaction on the board to find out there is a darker version of Kyube out there creating witches. Thus, the one we know isn't evil, but doing the opposite to try and stop his counterpart. Which would make Kyube good. Oh, the wailing and gnashing of teeth would be amusing, heh.

I'm just waiting for one of the characters to really grill Kyube on everything, ie, where do witches really come from, what kind of limits are there on wishing if any, where does he come from, etc. It always annoys me when there is one character there who can explain stuff if asked... but no one seems to ask the questions.
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