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Old 2011-02-04, 13:13   Link #321
panzerfan
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I know not if any character will actually emerge to put Kyubey on the hot seat where he is asked to defend himself. For example, Marlowe's Faustus shows that this approach does not work well against someone that would trivialize all the questions handed out and defer the questions to the one asking them. As much as this 'moment of truth' would be desirable, it might not emerge in this fashion.

At the moment, only the cryptic clues of Homura have been steadfast. It may even remain this way. I stated in prior posts that Homura's words of caution and her action to mitigate danger mirror that of homo, fuge! and the arm healing sent from the high heavens to urge Faustus from his pact with Mephistopheles.
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Old 2011-02-04, 13:19   Link #322
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Although I do have to say, I like your idea of a dark Kyube. It is mentioned that witches are born from curses just like MG's are born from wishes, so this kinda puts the nail in the coffin of "an MG will turn into a witch."
Not if you don't take it so litteraly.
The black stuff on the soul gem could be a witch's "curse" and if your soul gem is completely black you're cursed and become a witch.

And yes,I know sometimes "a cake is just a cake" etc
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Old 2011-02-04, 13:28   Link #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
I know not if any character will actually emerge to put Kyubey on the hot seat where he is asked to defend himself. For example, Marlowe's Faustus shows that this approach does not work well against someone that would trivialize all the questions handed out and defer the questions to the one asking them. As much as this 'moment of truth' would be desirable, it might not emerge in this fashion.
Perhaps not. But I at least expect someone to ask. Somewhere along the lines, in most good stories, someone grabs the seemingly all-knowing person and demands, "Alright, spill it; what is really going on around here!?" That person either spills the beans, or says something like, "I'm sorry, I wish I could tell you, but I can't."

It's an important moment, because regardless of what is revealed, it showcases the characters desire to really know what is going on, and establishes whether the all-knowing character really knows everything and/or whether they are willing to reveal that.

Wouldn't you try to ask someone what's going on? Someone who knows?

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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Not if you don't take it so litteraly.
The black stuff on the soul gem could be a witch's "curse" and if your soul gem is completely black you're cursed and become a witch.
And the black stuff could be just burned molasses. I see no reason not to take Kyube's words in any kind of figurative stance. So all that remains is to find out who is doling out curses and turning people into witches, or whether it's just strong feelings that determine that.

An interesting theory that came to me. Madoka and Sayaka had potential to be magical girls... what if that potential swings both ways? That is, it can be used to make them a magical girl OR a witch, and once the decision is made, you can't change it.

Thus, Homura doesn't want Madoka to become a magical girl... because Homura wants Madoka to become a witch, instead. A little crazy, but no crazier than any other theory here.
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Old 2011-02-04, 14:00   Link #324
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I've come up with very interesting theory after watching episode 5 again. What if the Magical Girls job is not only to hunt the witches but to maintain a type of food chain in which the Magical Girls are to let the weaker witches go to feed off of humans to control the population. Now going by the fallen Magical Girl equals Witch theory if a girl side not maintain the balance she can not get grief seeds and no grief seeds means she turns into a witch. This then helps restore the balance.
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Old 2011-02-04, 14:10   Link #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
I've come up with very interesting theory after watching episode 5 again. What if the Magical Girls job is not only to hunt the witches but to maintain a type of food chain in which the Magical Girls are to let the weaker witches go to feed off of humans to control the population. Now going by the fallen Magical Girl equals Witch theory if a girl side not maintain the balance she can not get grief seeds and no grief seeds means she turns into a witch. This then helps restore the balance.
I actually had a similar thought later, looking at things in a slightly different way.

Magical Girls are supposed to fight witches and familiars supposedly to protect people, but they only get their powers recharged by killing a witch and having it drop a grief seed. Thus, if MG's began killing familiars before they became witches, they'd eventually run out of magic power. So MG's essentially have to let some familiars kill/harm humans in order for them to become a witch.

Kyoko is essentially stating a truth, but that makes for a fucked-up system. In order to "win" you have to let people die.
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Old 2011-02-04, 14:14   Link #326
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I dunno which way the dice will fall with respect to Kyuubei, but he's been ringing alarm bells in my head ever since episode one. One thing is for sure, he may be acting all nice but he's definitely strongly pushing Madoka towards forming a contract. This does not necessarily mean that he's evil per se, but he sure is opportunistic.
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Old 2011-02-04, 14:21   Link #327
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I am still thinking of whether or not if it is indeed only natural to let Hades claim his share of human beings actually... in this case with witches. Even now, I am still wondering about the matter of the morality in killing witches. Unfortunately, this question would strike at the core of Urobuchi Gen's philosophy, as there may be no inherent right or wrong whatsoever according to the playwright. The age-old argument of man vs. nature has never led to a definite answer after all.

EDIT: Interesting visual cue that was mentioned is that there's a change in OP, with the "bleeding wall" while Madoka tussle in bed. It is blue in this episode as opposed to orange. Don't think too much into this at the moment nevertheless.

Another thing is whether or not if the value of one's wishes can only be judged based on the collateral damage, or in this case, how far the magical girls will go to have it stay put... I am just putting forth a thought where a magical girl has to step on the corpses of millions of causalities for what she holds as her truth. This I think is not what Urobuchi might use as a metric for the potency of any said magical girl.
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2011-02-04 at 15:17.
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Old 2011-02-04, 14:21   Link #328
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Kyoko is essentially stating a truth, but that makes for a fucked-up system. In order to "win" you have to let people die.
Well there is that ever popular saying "You can't save them all."
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Old 2011-02-04, 16:01   Link #329
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I actually had a similar thought later, looking at things in a slightly different way.

Magical Girls are supposed to fight witches and familiars supposedly to protect people, but they only get their powers recharged by killing a witch and having it drop a grief seed. Thus, if MG's began killing familiars before they became witches, they'd eventually run out of magic power. So MG's essentially have to let some familiars kill/harm humans in order for them to become a witch.

Kyoko is essentially stating a truth, but that makes for a fucked-up system. In order to "win" you have to let people die.
Kyoko only stated that there would be no chance of reward if they killed the familiar, not that they needed to let them become a witch because they were so starved for Grief Seeds. Remember that Mami went around killing familiars and seemed to be in no shortage of GS's.
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Old 2011-02-04, 16:04   Link #330
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If witches were born from curses, could their forms be determined by the curses they wanted to use? Coming from the theory that there is an 'Evil Kyubey' out there making contracts with people to turn them into witches. Then like how Sayaka gets mad regeneration for wishing Kamijo to get better, someone who wishes for a curse turns into something similar to what they cursed for? Then that can't explain the butterfly witch exactly...

Now if the magical girls don't fill up their grief seed by killing witches and actually turn into witches. Then yeah, even though the thought of just letting familiars kill people just to fuel them up to become witches later on, that's how it has to work. Or else we will have less magical girls, and even more witches at hand. Makes me wonder if Kyubey can multiply himself? If all of this is happening in Japan. Does it happen in other parts of the world? (Of course this show might not be that specific)

I like Triple_R's speculation

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Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
Kyoko only stated that there would be no chance of reward if they killed the familiar, not that they needed to let them become a witch because they were so starved for Grief Seeds. Remember that Mami went around killing familiars and seemed to be in no shortage of GS's.
Would be a good thing to be able to tell how much Grief Seed do the Magical Girls have left to use.
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Old 2011-02-04, 16:11   Link #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
Kyoko only stated that there would be no chance of reward if they killed the familiar, not that they needed to let them become a witch because they were so starved for Grief Seeds. Remember that Mami went around killing familiars and seemed to be in no shortage of GS's.
It's partly theoretical, but, it's just that Kyoko has a point. If a magical girl is so good that she snuffs out familiars in her territory before they become witches, and thus before they harm people (which would seem to be the ideal), then she's never going to get a grief seed. Thus, she'll eventually run out of magic.

Perhaps in practice it might not be likely, but this would self-select towards MG's who wait for familiars to become witches. Also would kinda help explain why there is generally 1 MG per territory; if you have multiple MG's around, then odds are all familiars and witches will be obliterated, perhaps before they become witches. In which case, you have a safe section of town... for as long as the magic holds out.

Mami was doing well, but then again, Kyoko seems to think the territory is a prime piece of real estate. Perhaps more witches and familiars show up there, which is why Mami wasn't in danger of running out of magic.
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Old 2011-02-04, 16:32   Link #332
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Interesting on an intellectual "what if" level, but I have to say it partially falls apart here.
Yeah, I admit that "If this speculation is true, why isn't Homura talking to Sayaka as much as she is to Madoka?" is the biggest weakness of that particular speculation.

Although, there are at least a couple possible answers to it:

1) In the original timeline, there was a huge falling out between future Madoka/Homura and Sayaka. Homura can't move beyond that, emotionally.

2) Similar to what Mentar noted on a different thread, Sayaka has been treating Homura like evil incarnate from Day 1. Now, I disagree with Mentar on the idea that Sayaka's treatment of Homura is downright "irrational", because that treatment is based on understandable (but likely inaccurate) assessments of Homura that Sayaka has made due to first impressions. Nonetheless, Sayaka's cold and harsh approach towards Homura is what it is, understandable or not. It definitely could be dissuading Homura from even trying to talk Sayaka out of becoming a magical girl.


Quote:

Although I do have to say, I like your idea of a dark Kyube. It is mentioned that witches are born from curses just like MG's are born from wishes, so this kinda puts the nail in the coffin of "an MG will turn into a witch." There are two sides of a coin being played out here.
I think that's a distinct possibility, one that grows with every episode that doesn't reveal that magical girls can involuntarily become witches.


Quote:

It would be incredibly amusing, too, to see the reaction on the board to find out there is a darker version of Kyube out there creating witches. Thus, the one we know isn't evil, but doing the opposite to try and stop his counterpart. Which would make Kyube good. Oh, the wailing and gnashing of teeth would be amusing, heh.
I have to agree, lol. The good thing is that I think that there's a decent chance of it, too. I mean, we're five episodes in now, and I really can't think of any particular scene that even hints at Kyube possibly playing both sides in this. Now, that doesn't rule it out, but this anime strikes me as one that likes to leave clues, hints, and foreshadowing all over the place. So if there's no real clues or hints for something at this point, I'm a bit skeptical of it, really.

Plus, I've just thought of a wrench in the idea that magical girls involuntarily turn into witches if they don't keep fighting them. If this is the case, where do familiars come from? Do magical girls first become familiars and then witches? Seems a bit convoluted to me...


Quote:

I'm just waiting for one of the characters to really grill Kyube on everything, ie, where do witches really come from, what kind of limits are there on wishing if any, where does he come from, etc. It always annoys me when there is one character there who can explain stuff if asked... but no one seems to ask the questions.
While I can understand the central characters being pushed along by a quickly developing plot so far, I agree that for the sake of simple believability, we need a question/answer scene like this soon. I mean, even if Madoka and Sayaka have slightly below average IQs, it has to be something that crosses their mind at some point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
If witches were born from curses, could their forms be determined by the curses they wanted to use? Coming from the theory that there is an 'Evil Kyubey' out there making contracts with people to turn them into witches. Then like how Sayaka gets mad regeneration for wishing Kamijo to get better, someone who wishes for a curse turns into something similar to what they cursed for? Then that can't explain the butterfly witch exactly...
Maybe the butterfly witch was born out of a girl that cursed someone by saying that she wanted that someone to die from a poisonous insect bite.


Quote:

Now if the magical girls don't fill up their grief seed by killing witches and actually turn into witches. Then yeah, even though the thought of just letting familiars kill people just to fuel them up to become witches later on, that's how it has to work. Or else we will have less magical girls, and even more witches at hand. Makes me wonder if Kyubey can multiply himself? If all of this is happening in Japan. Does it happen in other parts of the world? (Of course this show might not be that specific)
Yeah, I'm not holding out much hope on this giving global explanations of everything, though it would be nice, of course.


Quote:
I like Triple_R's speculation
Thanks! ^_^



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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
It's partly theoretical, but, it's just that Kyoko has a point. If a magical girl is so good that she snuffs out familiars in her territory before they become witches, and thus before they harm people (which would seem to be the ideal), then she's never going to get a grief seed. Thus, she'll eventually run out of magic.

Perhaps in practice it might not be likely, but this would self-select towards MG's who wait for familiars to become witches. Also would kinda help explain why there is generally 1 MG per territory; if you have multiple MG's around, then odds are all familiars and witches will be obliterated, perhaps before they become witches. In which case, you have a safe section of town... for as long as the magic holds out.
Those are good points. Too many magical girls in the same territory might mean that too many familiars never become witches (they're wiped out by the magical girls with the stricter consciences before it can come to that).
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Old 2011-02-04, 16:52   Link #333
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I must really give Urobuchi credit. For some reason, the Madoka series is the first in a long time to really engross me enough to want to contribute to the discussion.

I've been content for several *years* to lurk here in the forums as poster responses often seem to answer or bring up a point or question by the time I get around to post.

Okay here goes. *takes breath*

I'm really enjoying the back and forth here on the mystery of Homura as well as the subtle reveals as the series unfolds.

I also really like this line of reasoning:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

Those are good points.

To test this time travel theory further, I went back and rewatched some scenes from Episodes 1 and 3, specifically Homura's first conversation with Madoka, Homura's first confrontation with Mami, and Homura's scenes in Episode 3.

A few things stood out to me while doing so:

1. Homura is clearly already very familiar with the overall layout of Madoka's school. She knows exactly where to go to find the nurse's office, which Madoka found odd herself. She also already knows Madoka's name, and even Madoka's role as Class Monitor. This all makes sense, of course, if Homura is future Madoka.

2. Homura notably grimaces when Madoka talked about how unusual but cool Homura's name is. That could be due to how Madoka saying that is a painful reminder to Homura of when she chose to be a magical girl, and why she choose Homura as her magical girl name...

3. Homura doing exceptionally well in school could be because she's done all this school work before.

4. Homura notably grimaces a bit during some of her meetings with Mami. Perhaps this is because it's killing Homura to have to be this confrontational with Mami, as she liked Mami a lot and promised to remember her.

5. ... Homura doesn't look a lot like Madoka, but she does look a fair bit like Madoka's mother (she even has the same eye color as Madoka's mother). Homura's hairstyle is also like a longer version of that of Madoka's mother. Perhaps Homura's appearance resulted in future Madoka wanting to be a magical girl that looked like her admired and beloved mother.


The more I think about it, the more this theory really does seem to fit very, very well...
But here's a 'what if' counter speculation (and I believe someone has already suggested this idea before in the thread). The five points above could also be applied to the world reset theory:

Okay wild speculation here. Be gentle as I'm rusty.

As you say, Homura looks like Madoka's mother and that gets me to thinking:
Instead of Homura being a future version of the pink haired Madoka in this current time line/reality, what if Homura originally had the family and life our Madoka is now living? Homura looks like Madoka's mother because it *was* her mother in the original timeline/reality. Homura's MG wish has caused the two to swap places in reality.

The cut-shots of Homura grimacing during conversations with Madoka may be due to the fact that Madoka is living Homura's original pre-MG life. The unhappy faces by Homura when Madoka comments about how unusual Homura's name is because, well, Madoka *was* Homura's original name and that was Homura's life.

Homura in this version of the world appears to be a different person but she is intimately familiar with everything about Madoka's life- as it used to be hers. This is why Homura knows so much about the school and so forth.

So, Homura is here in this reality to prevent Madoka from contracting with QB, perhaps because if Madoka contracts to be a Puella Magi it unravels Homura's wish. But there's a bitter-sweet element to Homura's encounters with the current Madoka in the current time line/world reset as Madoka is living Homura's old life, surrounded by Homura's original family and friends. This gives Homura's comment in ep.5 that a MG gives up everything for one wish direct relevance to Homura's situation, as she has lost her entire life, her friends and family, in order to fulfill her MG wish.

It might be interesting to see if the show puts Homura in direct contact with Madoka's family. I think Homura's reaction in a meeting with Madoka's parents and little brother might be very telling.

Side speculation: The older version of Madoka in OP is the original Magical Girl that pink haired Madoka was before Homura reset the world. Maybe the older pink haired girl's name was Homura?

Last edited by Kawakanai; 2011-02-04 at 17:13.
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Old 2011-02-04, 17:00   Link #334
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If witches were born from curses, could their forms be determined by the curses they wanted to use? Coming from the theory that there is an 'Evil Kyubey' out there making contracts with people to turn them into witches. Then like how Sayaka gets mad regeneration for wishing Kamijo to get better, someone who wishes for a curse turns into something similar to what they cursed for? Then that can't explain the butterfly witch exactly...
Speaking of which, I've been wondering what kind of power Madoka would have gotten if she had wished for a cake

As for the the witches, it's hard to tell. Reading their profiles here should help.

Gertrud loved roses and turned into a butterfly.

Charlotte loved desserts, and looked like... I'm not sure how to even describe it, lol. It's very interesting that she was unable to create the dessert she liked the most, cheese (that's why she ate Mami's head! Her blonde hair made her think she was cheese ). I find it a bit hilarious that Mami could have killed her easily if only she had brought a piece of cheese with her.

Elly was an extreme hikkikomori. She looked like Anti-spiral's sister, i.e. some sort of silhouette.

Not exactly sure what to make of this. It seems like their witch-forms are related to their previous addictions rather than a curse.
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Old 2011-02-04, 17:10   Link #335
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Why are people putting spoiler tags in the Spoiler & Speculation thread?

Anyways, I didn't take Kyubei's conversations with Kyoko as warnings, as some other posters have. It sounded more to me like he was trying to gently drive her out of the area. It is odd that he didn't warn Sayaka about Kyoko ahead of time though.
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Old 2011-02-04, 17:20   Link #336
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Why are people putting spoiler tags in the Spoiler & Speculation thread?

Anyways, I didn't take Kyubei's conversations with Kyoko as warnings, as some other posters have. It sounded more to me like he was trying to gently drive her out of the area. It is odd that he didn't warn Sayaka about Kyoko ahead of time though.
To save space.

Too odd!
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Old 2011-02-04, 17:26   Link #337
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Spoiler for Spoiler to... wait for it... wait for it... SAVE SPACE! ;):
That's a very interesting theory. If you're right, Madoka and Homura must have been very close friends in the original timeline.


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Why are people putting spoiler tags in the Spoiler & Speculation thread?
I do it mainly to save space... but also because Anime Suki can be a bit sticky about spoiler rules sometimes.


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Anyways, I didn't take Kyubei's conversations with Kyoko as warnings, as some other posters have. It sounded more to me like he was trying to gently drive her out of the area.
Totally agree! ^_^

I'm relieved that I'm not the only one to interpret it that way, lol.
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Old 2011-02-04, 17:27   Link #338
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I suppose this counts as speculation:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...99#post3472099
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Old 2011-02-04, 17:41   Link #339
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Yeah, I admit that "If this speculation is true, why isn't Homura talking to Sayaka as much as she is to Madoka?" is the biggest weakness of that particular speculation.

Although, there are at least a couple possible answers to it:

1) In the original timeline, there was a huge falling out between future Madoka/Homura and Sayaka. Homura can't move beyond that, emotionally.

2) Similar to on a different thread, Sayaka has been treating Homura like evil incarnate from Day 1. Now, I disagree with Mentar on the idea that Sayaka's treatment of Homura is downright "irrational", because that treatment is based on understandable (but likely inaccurate) assessments of Homura that Sayaka has made due to first impressions. Nonetheless, Sayaka's cold and harsh approach towards Homura is what it is, understandable or not. It definitely could be dissuading Homura from even trying to talk Sayaka out of becoming a magical girl.
I used to like this theory from Day 1...just because Madoka and Homura are both illustrated use bow from the official site (in which they never yet did in the show, interestingly). FATE! However, I changed my mind already last week, after episode 4, because the way in which Homura handles Sayaka just cannont make me believe that she is future Madoka. I mean, she gave me a "Oh, crap. I forgot about Sayaka. That's pretty bad. But oh well." kind of feeling..

Suppose Homura was Madoka. That means Homura would know Sayaka well, too. However, the way in which Homura and Sayaka interact does not seem like Homura understands Sayaka at all. All Homura acheived was to make Sayaka antagonize her, something unlikely to happen if Homura knows Sayaka's personality. Homura also showed no reactions to Sayaka's words, like she did to Madoka's words. In addition, Homura did absolutely nothing about Sayaka's Kamijyo-problem, whereas Madoka at least know that Kamiyo exists..

So what exactly is Homura? Gee, I don't know Presently I am looking at the cat theory, which has not a lot of supports anyways because there are not cats besides from OP.
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Old 2011-02-04, 18:22   Link #340
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Suppose Homura was Madoka. That means Homura would know Sayaka well, too. However, the way in which Homura and Sayaka interact does not seem like Homura understands Sayaka at all. All Homura acheived was to make Sayaka antagonize her, something unlikely to happen if Homura knows Sayaka's personality. Homura also showed no reactions to Sayaka's words, like she did to Madoka's words. In addition, Homura did absolutely nothing about Sayaka's Kamijyo-problem, whereas Madoka at least know that Kamiyo exists..
One Explanation:
I can't remember the exact quote but one exchange between Mami and Homura has Mami state something to the effect that Homura's comments are something a bullied person might say. Maybe Homura as the original Madoka wasn't very popular in school and had other issues like bullying. Its possible in that version of the world, Sayaka was not her close friend, thus why she doesn't seem to understand Sayaka.

Another Explanation:
The original friend pairing in the original timeline might have been Homura as original Madoka and our pink-haired "Madoka" was original Madoka's close friend (Homura). But Sayaka took on the role of Madoka's close friend this time around. @_@

Let me try this:

-Original Reality-
1. Original Madoka (now Homura) is close friends with Homura (now Madoka)

-Reboot Reality-
2. New Madoka (old Homura) is close friends with Sayaka.
Current Homura is an outsider in this version of reality.

Whether it's a time loop or world reset (or something else) there are indications that things are unfolding differently. Homura's surprise at Mami's ribbons melting for example when Mami died. So maybe Sayaka is relatively unknown to Homura as she wasn't her close friend in the original version of history, that role was taken by pink-haired "Madoka". This could explain Homura's blind spot for Sayaka in the new history.

Oh and on the spacial displacement theory for Homura's MG powers, that might fit also with the idea that Homura and Madoka changed places in the current history. Rather than time-based abilities. (Although knowing Shaft, it could be just lazy animation for the pipes).
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