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Old 2011-03-01, 22:01   Link #881
NaweG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So, what do people think of my ideas here?
I love this, and hope that what Gen is trying to pull off is something this good or better.
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Old 2011-03-02, 00:44   Link #882
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
And the point of doing that would be... (?)

2ch is this wonderful place which got us the death clock and whatnot. I feel very reluctant to take ANYTHING from there as gospel.
You know, like, a joke? 2ch is master of things like these.

Spoiler for off topic:


Btw
Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerfan
While in discussion with SpaceBrotha and Jimmy_C, we all started to wonder regarding the issue of whether if the act of taking a human life really does blacken the soul gem, as well as the level of impact this darkening of soul gem has on the personality. We know at this moment that the usage of magic and the feeling of despair both darken the soul gem.

There are two ways to analyze this issue, one being that the act itself does blacken the soul gem, whereas the other being that one would only darken the soulgem if an act would cause despair to one's own heart. Given that the Incubator is an unique exception, there is no direct example for one to speak with certainty about what had transpired with Sayaka, for both approaches would be compatible with Sayaka's fall.

The thought that struck me is that hope, the counterbalance to despair, does not work in itself to remove magical girls of their tarnish, and they must redeem this darkness via depositing that grief into a grief seed. This seems to a case where one builds happiness upon the despair of others. What is clear however, is that the blackening of the soul gem seems to impact the individual's psyche... or rather, if we can say that since the soulgem is a physical manifestation of the soul, and as such, the essence of the being, the blackening of the soul gem is also the depression of one's psyche.

A further extension of this line of thought would suggest that magic itself takes an emotional toil on the user.

As it is clear to human being that it is possible for individuals to elevate themselves from grief or to do so with the help of others, can one go on and hypothesize that:
Magical girls are incapable of elevating oneself from despair individually or through assistance of others, so that their only avenue is to deposit their grief onto grief seeds?

Can it also be said that:
To gain a miracle implies that one's soul can no longer be elevated from despair without depositing that despair upon a grief seed?
Sorry, being an umineko fan, I'm a bit dazed here. You know, by Umineko standards, none of this can be accounted as red truth, or do you have a different meaning with there coloring?
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Old 2011-03-02, 00:54   Link #883
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Gah, red text.

Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
Magical girls are incapable of elevating oneself from despair individually or through assistance of others, so that their only avenue is to deposit their grief onto grief seeds?
Mami looked pretty happy when she was with Madoka. But you could also argue Mami was not in despair either; she was merely lonely; yet that would contradict how Mami was able to deposit her "grief" into the Grief Seed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
To gain a miracle implies that one's soul can no longer be elevated from despair without depositing that despair upon a grief seed?
I do think that Kyubey takes something from his contractors. Every Puella Magi we have seen lacks a part of human emotion.

Homura - Humor
Mami - Friendship
Kyoko - Trust
Sayaka - ??? (Empathy, possibly...)

Of course, the real price is probably going to be revealed as much grander than single emotions.
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Old 2011-03-02, 02:51   Link #884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu View Post
@TRiple_R
man, i love you theory..XD it's interesting..thanks for sharing.XD
Sorry for missing this before. Glad you liked the theory.

This anime is definitely a lot of fun to speculate over. I like the idea that we're seeing the 2nd Act of a grander play unfold, and that because we're only seeing the 2nd Act (and not the 1st Act that came before it) there's a captivating element of mystery here that will only be uncovered near the end of the 2nd Act (i.e. the end of this anime).

My main hope for the climax of this anime is that...

1) It makes sense retroactively. That is to say that any major future revelations fit in nicely with the clues and details that came before (i.e. Homura is "irregular" somehow, Homura's connection to Madoka is explained, etc...).

2) The OP is shown to be mostly relevant instead of mostly superfluous. In other words, that all those many scenes of magical girl Madoka reflect events that will happen or already have happenned (prior to the events of Episode 1).

With that in mind, I would be pretty pleased if my own theory turns out to be true. I'd also be pretty pleased if Raiga92's theory turns out to be true, as it meets both of my two hopes as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
Triple_R did raise a crucial point about Urobuchi, in that Urobuchi Gen is quite efficient and does not leave visual cue unused. The black cat in stark contrast to that of the white, ethereal Incubator would be something that must be accounted for somehow. Keep in mind that a black cat is considered a symbol of ill omen and that it is a familiar to a witch by folklore, being able to transform to a human and so forth.
Thank you. And interesting on how black cats are often able to transform to a human. I guess the possibility of that black cat being an existing character goes up a bit then.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
And the point of doing that would be... (?)

2ch is this wonderful place which got us the death clock and whatnot. I feel very reluctant to take ANYTHING from there as gospel.
So that's where the now notoriously inaccurate death clock came from? Yeah, I think it would be smart to take anything from 2Chan wih a big grain of salt then.


Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
While in discussion with SpaceBrotha and Jimmy_C, we all started to wonder regarding the issue of whether if the act of taking a human life really does blacken the soul gem, as well as the level of impact this darkening of soul gem has on the personality. We know at this moment that the usage of magic and the feeling of despair both darken the soul gem.

There are two ways to analyze this issue, one being that the act itself does blacken the soul gem, whereas the other being that one would only darken the soulgem if an act would cause despair to one's own heart.
This could explain why Kyoko is doing relatively well so far. Her overall psychological approach is ideal for being a magical girl in this anime's universe, much to the contrary of Sayaka's overall psychological approach.

Basically, you can't be a perfectionist. I think this term of "perfectionist" perhaps works better than "idealist" does, because a person can pursue an ideal while still accepting current reality as it is - this, I think, may be a key distinction between the more accepting Madoka and the less accepting Sayaka. Sayaka wasn't simply pursuing an ideal, she was crafting outright delusions (i.e. "All the other magical girls are totally wrong, and I'm the only one that's in any way right") in order to satisfy her perfectionism.


Quote:
What is clear however, is that the blackening of the soul gem seems to impact the individual's psyche... or rather, if we can say that since the soulgem is a physical manifestation of the soul, and as such, the essence of the being, the blackening of the soul gem is also the depression of one's psyche.
Interesting thought. That could account for how unnaturally unhinged Sayaka was becoming, in my opinion. As the soul gem blackens, your mental state deteriorates with it.


Quote:

A further extension of this line of thought would suggest that magic itself takes an emotional toil on the user.
This I'm less certain of. I think that there may be a safe (or at least a relatively safe) way of using magic. But if so, we probably haven't seen it yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NaweG View Post
I love this, and hope that what Gen is trying to pull off is something this good or better.
Agreed. Glad you loved it, NaweG.
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Old 2011-03-02, 03:29   Link #885
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Just want to leave this here guys.
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Old 2011-03-02, 04:01   Link #886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taofd View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Just want to leave this here guys.
While it's always good to keep the possibility of confirmation bias in mind, I think it's also important to note what the writer seems to be aiming for.

For a long time I defended Kyubey because...

1) Gen (and SHAFT) were really laying it on thick. That "bad vibes" surrounding Kyubey were virtually everywhere, and painfully obvious. Almost too obvious, really, which is partly why I was skeptical of them.

2) Kyubey's actual words didn't seem that sinister to me. By and large, they still don't.

Taking these two together, I felt that Gen may be slyly setting up a major plot twist involving Kyubey, and a plot twist that would work retrospectively since Kyubey's own words were not condemning him.


However, I recently noticed that all of this is probably just Gen's writing style. Which is to say...

1) I think that he likes to gradually lay it on thick. He has certain core ideas and he will hammer them home, beyond a shadow of a doubt, before the end of the anime. One core idea that is coming to the fore now is that if a teenage girl contracts with Kyubey, she's doomed (barring some sort of extreme outside intervention, at least). Gen is slowly but surely hammering this home, first with Homura's consistent ominous warnings to Madoka, then with Mami's death, and now with Sayaka's greek tragedy descent into becoming a witch. Sadly, and after giving it more thought, I now think Kyoko dies in an episode or two. That would be the final nail in the coffin to any doubt that you can come out Ok (by your own power) as a Kyubey-contracted magical girl.

"You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become a villain" - Harvey Dent

He might as well be talking about these magical girls...


2) Gen likes for actions to speak louder than words. Put aside words, and just focus on the ultimate results of each character's actions, and there you will find the truth of the matter. By this measure, the magical girl system is doing grievous harm. And Kyubey is enabling this system. To me, whether or not he is evil is not really the central issue here now. Either way, the system that he is enabling needs to be stopped, or massively overhauled. Sometimes a threat is of such an existential nature that you have to stop that threat no matter how evil it may or may not be. A meteor that would kill all life on Earth is not evil, per se - it's not as if the meteor is laughing maniacally about getting to kill all of humanity - but the meteor still needs to be stopped. This magical girl system needs to be destroyed, fixed, or replaced. Period.
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Old 2011-03-02, 04:44   Link #887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
While it's always good to keep the possibility of confirmation bias in mind, I think it's also important to note what the writer seems to be aiming for.
Precisely, but all I see are people pushing theories that don't even make sense. Yes, it's true certain things are "possible", but let's be honest, it's probably extremely unlikely.

The only important thing is what Urobuchi & friends are pushing, so it is important to understand it from their perspective. Yes they're throwing in faust references, yes QB is bizarrely creepy for a mascot character, but people are taking these at face value. Isn't it more important to identify an underlying theme or, the "secret sauce"? If you just base theories based on symptoms without analyzing WHY something is happening or WHAT PURPOSE it fulfills, speculation will never have a modicum of accuracy.

Just a personal wish, but I would like to see people cite sources whenever making claims. I'm all up for speculation but scientific methodology can be applied even to situations like this.

I can't even keep track of all the theories that are circulating about this show anymore.

http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Translat...cial_Documents
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Old 2011-03-02, 05:03   Link #888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taofd View Post
Precisely, but all I see are people pushing theories that don't even make sense. Yes, it's true certain things are "possible", but let's be honest, it's probably extremely unlikely.

The only important thing is what Urobuchi & friends are pushing, so it is important to understand it from their perspective. Yes they're throwing in faust references, yes QB is bizarrely creepy for a mascot character, but people are taking these at face value. Isn't it more important to identify an underlying theme or, the "secret sauce"?
Well, what do you think the underlying theme is?

"Be careful what you wish for"? That would work on many levels, but if this is the underlying theme, it opens up many different possibilities for an ending.


Quote:

Just a personal wish, but I would like to see people cite sources whenever making claims.
By "cite sources" do you mean evidence from the anime? If so, people are regularly doing that.


Quote:
I'm all up for speculation but scientific methodology can be applied even to situations like this.
If speculation = hypothesis, then the only thing to "test" it against is what the anime has shown thus far (and what can be gleaned from Urobuchi and Shinbo quotes). And, again, people are doing that.


Quote:

I can't even keep track of all the theories that are circulating about this show anymore.

http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Translat...cial_Documents
For good or for ill, this is what happens with a popular anime.
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Old 2011-03-02, 05:30   Link #889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Well, what do you think the underlying theme is?

"Be careful what you wish for"? That would work on many levels, but if this is the underlying theme, it opens up many different possibilities for an ending.
I don't think it's "Be careful what you wish for." I'm leaning more towards that this is about a young girls development into adulthood (as stated in previous posts). There is no "real" evidence, but IMO there are a few hints with the interaction between Madoka and her mother, QB's warnings about future and destiny, and a few of Homura's quotes as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

By "cite sources" do you mean evidence from the anime? If so, people are regularly doing that.
What I mean is for people to not only give evidence, but to also be objective. I see a lot of statements like "Madoka feels" or "Homura feels X so she does Y." In reality, we don't know exactly how the characters actually "feel". We can only summarize their interactions by stating, "Homura does X action, Y is a likely reason for her motivation."

In this way, I have yet to be convinced that QB can be objectively defined as "evil". Every reason for his "evilness" I've seen so far, has been subjective evaluations as to his lack of "human" values.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

If speculation = hypothesis, then the only thing to "test" it against is what the anime has shown thus far (and what can be gleaned from Urobuchi and Shinbo quotes). And, again, people are doing that.
No, I agree. I'm not trying to discourage speculation. I'm just frustrated that I don't have the time or energy to point out all the flaws to any given theory. :/

I guess I'm just hoping for people to take a more scientific approach, to decrease the number of bogus theories out there (raise the quality bar).

http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Facts_and_Observations
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Old 2011-03-02, 06:09   Link #890
BaKaBaKaOtaKu
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urobuchi stated himself that QB does things w/o malicious intent. maybe i need to replace Light as my best anime 'villain' now..XD
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Old 2011-03-02, 08:01   Link #891
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Well, what do you think the underlying theme is?
Hope and determination. Stories with these notions don't have to be sunshine and happiness, in fact many of the best stories in human history explore these concepts in a dark manner. That's why I posted the video of Samwise Gamgee's speech from The Two Towers, because it contains what is, imo, the essence of memorable storytelling.

"Sometimes you don't want to know the end, because how could the end be happy after so much bad has happened?"

Mami was determined to live. She was stuck in a bad situation that turned into something worse. But she kept her hope and goodness. You can see that like Kyoko, her darkness was great, but she did what she had to to survive. The interesting thing is that her first death mirrored her second, in that we might derive some meaning from them but ultimately they were both senseless and cruel twists of fate.

Homura is both of these as well. She hopes to change the future, or at least Madoka's fate, and has shown incredible determination to do so. Like Mami, her darkness is great, but she does what she must. Her biggest flaw and her greatest strength is her regret of how the future unfolded and her determination to change it.

Sayaka has determination, but no hope. Like any young, stubborn, and idealistic youth, she foolishly believed that she could make the world better in a simplistic way (if I defeat Witches, I'm doing justice). When the truth is forced upon her, she does not keep hope, instead she runs away from it. She convinces herself that Kamijou would never love her, that her friend was "stealing" him away, that what she thought was justice was just a childish notion and that there was no justice in the world.

What is interesting about Sayaka is that her final lines before she turns into a Witch are of someone who has realized herself, not of someone who was lost. Culminating with the last words "I'm such a fool", that self realization of mistakes fits perfectly with the discussion Madoka and her mother had about making mistakes. It also mirrors QB's line about "magical girls growing up", in that realizing and reflecting on your mistakes after you make them is part of becoming an adult. If anyone is able to reset the death flag in this series, I believe it is Sayaka (hence my hope that episode 9 isn't the obvious, which is that she "dies").

Kyoko is essentially Mami 2.0, except her background story was more tragic and it shows why her character is Tsundere. She is at heart, a very good person, but it is very hard for her to reach out to anyone after seeing how good intentions can do bad things. This is also why she sympathizes with Sayaka so much and ultimately does reach out to her, because she not only sees a kindred spirit, but also someone going down the same path she did. Her determination is more noticeable than her hope, but she is hopeful or she wouldn't have reached out like she did. Between Sayaka and Kyoko dying in episode 9, Kyoko actually has more death flags. However instead of meaningless tragic death like Mami, hers could be that of a martyr and true friend. We shall see.

Madoka is both hope and determination. She is unsure of herself, and her potential, like all children are when growing up, but she is pure of heart and full of love. She doesn't fight out of preconception like Sayaka, or existence like Mami, fate like Homura, or tragedy like Kyoko. She hopes and finds her determination through her kind heart. She doesn't want her friends to fight, or die. She grieves for people no matter who they are. Her compassion for everyone is even highlighted in the first episode, when Homura asks her if she loves everyone and then tells her to never change.

The downside of this is that her character has the irony of being the biggest fall. Imagine hitting a child as hard as you can. What is the reaction of the child? Outside of crying from pain, most likely you will be punched back. A child's version of justice is simple: retribution (sadly, most adults do not grow out of this, hence "eye for an eye"). You hurt me, so I must hurt you back. In other words, take Sayaka's realization of how justice is cruel and her nihilism about the pointlessness of justice and magnify it a billionfold. If there is no love for the world, it must burn.

QB, ironically, is the neutral aspect of humanity. Good and evil are simply labels that do not fit him. It is true that he is an existence that is disruptive and harmful, but like Triple R mentions, we wouldn't consider a Meteor evil, nor would we think a virus is evil, or a lion killing a zebra. The key to creating a good antagonist in a story is to not paint them in simple black and white terms of good and evil. QB is the perfect villain, in that he is difficult to understand because he comes across so harmlessly. In a way he reflects some of the greatest villains of human history, who rose to power not because of their force but because they tempted others with their own desires and thus drew people in like flies to honey.

From our own, human, perspective, QB is wrong and therefore evil according to our value system. However he represents the subjectivity of good and evil, that selfish and selfless behaviors, impulses, and desires, are all a matter of perspective. The girls may have chosen the things they believe in, and of course we the audience already have our beliefs, but QB doesn't care either way. He exists to get what he wants, with no concern for the consequences of those he pulls into his destructive world. Of course he might be the most arguable existence in the story. I suspect we'll be discussing him well after the show is finished airing.

Anyway, that's my long winded character analysis. I'm sure the story will end on a hopeful note, but I'm also sure the darkness will continue in the coming episodes. I don't expect a bad end, but I do expect that we won't get the simple "friendship and love beat the crap out of the bad guys ending" the genre is famous for.
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Old 2011-03-02, 08:38   Link #892
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^ That was unexpectedly good and right. Sure, Kyubey is kinda bad in human aspects, but until it will seem that Kyubey would have that malice, we can't consider Kyubey as truly evil.

And oh one thing...

if Homura = Madoka...then damn it anyway. Homura is only strong 'cus of her time travel abilities, so Homura to be Madoka is near impossible, 'cus as Kyubey states, Madoka is NATURALLY strong. I can imagine Haruhi-like power now. O.o
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Old 2011-03-02, 08:41   Link #893
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(Sorry for the inconvenience on this passing off Umineko. I have amended this.)

The analysis is also welcoming. I don't think I can realistically contribute much in individual assessment... so I will focus on ethical issues.

Incubator however does have his foil in the concepts of universal ethics, Prioritarian, Deontological view as well as virtues. I feel that this is important to add as these ethical concepts are the crucial rivals to the pragmatist Incubator who we may even coin a moral Nihilist. The only problem is that there is no individual entity within the story that can stand and speak on behalf of these rivaling schools maturely.

The magical girls listed do not foil the Incubator adequately. On some level, all the magical girls prescribed to the consequentialist school of thought. Kyoko went from acting out of good for all to being an egoist, Sayaka in shift between rule utilitarianism, altruism and egoism, Mami the preference utilitarian, and lastly Homura who acts out of benefit for Madoka above all else. This is an incredibly narrow spectrum of human belief on moral, and frankly, it makes for an evaluation of the Incubator difficult as one cannot reliably draw upon the magical girls to act as counter references points to that of the Incubator at all, since consequence is essentially the domain of the Incubator's apology.

Madoka has the issue of being too immature to form very strong stance regarding a decision. She only has an adherence of the golden rule and imitation of others to go on. Without having an advanced and articulated stance, Madoka cannot form any sort of substantial counter to the Incubator. She is, by her action, to be quite opposite to that of the Incubator, although her acts are carried out with such a level of self-doubt that drawing sophisticated defense from them would be contradictory in itself in the first place, let along mounting opposition to the Incubator.

We are left then, without any entity that can speak loudly in counter of the Incubator from the Kantian or other Deontological schools. We are left with no surviving believer of divine command, no ardent relativist nor that of a paragon of virtue to serve in stark contrast to the complicated Incubator. It's something that we the audience have to take in account for when wondering about whether if there's any reasonable defense against the Incubator at all.
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Old 2011-03-02, 08:53   Link #894
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Originally Posted by ronelm2000 View Post
And oh one thing...

if Homura = Madoka...then damn it anyway. Homura is only strong 'cus of her time travel abilities, so Homura to be Madoka is near impossible, 'cus as Kyubey states, Madoka is NATURALLY strong. I can imagine Haruhi-like power now. O.o
I don't buy that Homura is anyone but herself. Mainly because of this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
This magical girl system needs to be destroyed, fixed, or replaced. Period.
It is established pretty well now that you can't change the magical girl system by being a part of it. However Homura has shown that it can be messed with by tampering with time. Homura is an anomaly to the system, something that QB admits. He also admits that he didn't contract her.

I speculated in the episode 8 thread that Homura will probably be the means by which Madoka becomes a Magical Girl. There's a few theories about how this might happen (mine is admittedly a little wacky as well), but basically I believe that Homura is buying time for something to happen to Madoka that will enable her to be a Magical Girl without a contract or somehow circumventing the MG to Witch issue.
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Old 2011-03-02, 08:58   Link #895
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
(Sorry for the inconvenience on this passing off Umineko. I have amended this.)

The analysis is also welcoming. I don't think I can realistically contribute much in individual assessment... so I will focus on ethical issues.

Incubator however does have his foil in the concepts of universal ethics, Prioritarian, Deontological view as well as virtues. I feel that this is important to add as these ethical concepts are the crucial rivals to the pragmatist Incubator who we may even coin a moral Nihilist. The only problem is that there is no individual entity within the story that can stand and speak on behalf of these rivaling schools maturely.

The magical girls listed do not foil the Incubator adequately. On some level, all the magical girls prescribed to the consequentialist school of thought. Kyoko went from to be an egoist, Sayaka in shift between rule utilitarianism, altruism and egoism, Mami the preference utilitarian, and lastly Homura who acts out of benefit for Madoka above all else. This is an incredible narrow spectrum of human belief on moral, and frankly, it makes for an evaluation of the Incubator difficult as one cannot reliably draw upon the magical girls to act as counter references points to that of the Incubator at all, since consequence is essentially the domain of the Incubator's apology.

Madoka has the issue of being too immature to form very strong stance regarding a decision. She only has an adherence of the golden rule and imitation of others to go on. Without having an advanced and articulated stance, Madoka cannot form any sort of substantial counter to the Incubator. She is, by her action, to be quite opposite to that of the Incubator, although her acts are carried out with such a level of self-doubt that drawing sophisticated defense from them would be contradictory in itself in the first place, let along mounting opposition to the Incubator.
Well his deontological adherence only applies on the assumption that he has a set of rules he must abide to and must be judged accordingly, but we don't really know what this ethical backbone is of his, at least not yet. In contrast, his prioritarianism is called into question because you have to ask the question of how his methods have benefited his MG stable in the long run.

I have to ask also which of Kant's philosophies you're referring to. Kantian Morality?

I'll address the rest later.

Last edited by MeoTwister5; 2011-03-02 at 09:13.
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Old 2011-03-02, 09:10   Link #896
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Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
This is an incredible narrow spectrum of human belief on moral, and frankly, it makes for an evaluation of the Incubator difficult as one cannot reliably draw upon the magical girls to act as counter references points to that of the Incubator at all, since consequence is essentially the domain of the Incubator's apology.

Madoka has the issue of being too immature to form very strong stance regarding a decision. She only has an adherence of the golden rule and imitation of others to go on. Without having an advanced and articulated stance, Madoka cannot form any sort of substantial counter to the Incubator. She is, by her action, to be quite opposite to that of the Incubator, although her acts are carried out with such a level of self-doubt that drawing sophisticated defense from them would be contradictory in itself in the first place, let along mounting opposition to the Incubator.
Quite right. My analysis wasn't meant to use the girls to contrast QB, just to show what I think each represents. You are correct that it is limited and narrow though. I could have offered a much more in depth look but I'd rather wait until after the show is done before doing that kind of work. We could and probably will spend a lot of time discussing ethics with all of these characters well past the ending of the show I believe.

Your point about Madoka is well said. If I may make an comparison, Madoka is almost like a representation of the "natural" incubation humans go through to become mature, while Incubator represents the unnatural. The MG system is growth through force, in a sense (adapt or die), while Madoka represents the traditional path.

One of the things I'm always fascinated with in anime is that easily accepted notion that if you give a child great power and/or responsibility it will be used maturely. These children are often portrayed as being far more mature than their age suggests. Perhaps this is a reflection of Japanese upbringing and lifestyle, where children are relatively independent compared to say...American children, who are often kept under closer watch, but in reality we do a lot of things to protect children who (at least in societies view) haven't matured enough to handle big responsibility.

If Sayaka is meant to represent the Shinji Akari view of the MG system (unstable mind as a product of immaturity and poor/weak support pillars while giving her incredible power), perhaps Madoka is to be the antithesis of that. That is pure speculation though, I can't really back it up with facts.
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Old 2011-03-02, 10:13   Link #897
panzerfan
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I found a scan of an interview/advert of sorts for Madoka on Yomiuri Shinbun.
Spoiler for article:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urobuchi Gen
「夢と希望の物語で終らせるが、視聴者がそう思ってくれるかどうかは分からない」,
"This story will end as an epic about hopes and dreams, although I am not sure if the audience would feel that way."

Gen made a reminder about the Incubator having a different set of moral to that of human beings. This is somewhat notable.
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Old 2011-03-02, 10:24   Link #898
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
I found a scan of an interview/advert of sorts for Madoka on Yomiuri Shinbun.
Spoiler for article:
"This story will end as an epic about hopes and dreams, although I am not sure if the audience would feel that way."

Gen made a reminder about the Incubator having a different set of moral to that of human beings. This is somewhat notable.
See applejuice's post for more info: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1476
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Old 2011-03-02, 10:27   Link #899
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taofd View Post
I don't think it's "Be careful what you wish for." I'm leaning more towards that this is about a young girls development into adulthood (as stated in previous posts). There is no "real" evidence, but IMO there are a few hints with the interaction between Madoka and her mother, QB's warnings about future and destiny, and a few of Homura's quotes as well.
You could very well be right here. If that is the theme, though, I'm having a hard time thinking up how that plays out in the climax. Unless, perhaps, the climax is about Madoka learning to be less idealistic and hard on herself, and succeeding by showing a willingness to compromise and settle for a flawed solution, perhaps.


Quote:
What I mean is for people to not only give evidence, but to also be objective. I see a lot of statements like "Madoka feels" or "Homura feels X so she does Y." In reality, we don't know exactly how the characters actually "feel". We can only summarize their interactions by stating, "Homura does X action, Y is a likely reason for her motivation."
Ok, I see what you're saying here.


Quote:

In this way, I have yet to be convinced that QB can be objectively defined as "evil". Every reason for his "evilness" I've seen so far, has been subjective evaluations as to his lack of "human" values.
I'm still leery of definitively calling Kyubey "evil" myself. Episode 8 does show that there might be an element of maliciousness to him. In this episode, he gives off a slight impression (to me, at least) of someone messing around with the girls for sheer shits and giggles. But this impression is slight enough that there may be nothing to it, of course.

This is why I think focusing on whether or not Kyubey is evil might be a form of misdirection itself. Whether or not he is evil, this magical girl system is utterly messed up, and is clearly counterproductive (to humanity) by how it creates the very same problems that on face value it exists to contain (i.e. witches). Teenage girls are being sacrificed in a system that now seems pointless at best, or a vicious intentional pyramid scheme at worst.

So, I'm convinced now that the ending to this anime (unless it's a "bad end") will probably involve this magical girl system being destroyed, fixed, or effectively rendered moot by Madoka bypassing it.

Beyond that, though, I am much less certain.


Quote:
No, I agree. I'm not trying to discourage speculation. I'm just frustrated that I don't have the time or energy to point out all the flaws to any given theory. :/

I guess I'm just hoping for people to take a more scientific approach, to decrease the number of bogus theories out there (raise the quality bar).

http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Facts_and_Observations
I agree wholeheartedly with you here.

Well, in any event, taofd, we won't have to wait much longer for some speculations to drop by the wayside. Only 4 episodes to go, and the next one is coming up very soon! I'm pretty excited!
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Old 2011-03-02, 10:33   Link #900
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Gen made a reminder about the Incubator having a different set of moral to that of human beings. This is somewhat notable.
The word of God had descended. QB isn't evil! lol
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