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Old 2011-03-08, 05:30   Link #1121
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Think about this. In episode 7, when Madoka told Homura she would like to do something for Sayaka because Sayaka's her friend and saved her before, Homura said, don't mix gratitude with responsibility...

Considering that, if Homura was just a friend that wanted to save Madoka out of friendship and gratitude, she would be a fucking hypocrite for saying that to Madoka in episode 7. I don't think she's like that and I definitely don't think this line was just coincidence...

After 9 episodes I'm pretty convinced Homura isn't like that. Homura definitely loves Madoka, but she's trying to save her no just out of friendship but also because it's her responsibility somehow. So forcibly she has to be either Madoka herself, or someone from her family (like her mother or daughter), or a part of Madoka herself (like a familiar) but definitely not just a friend.

Just my two cents, but I'm calling it!!
What Homura meant is that while Madoka should be grateful that Sayaka helped her, she is not obligated to return the favor. Friends don't force others to pay something back in return.

Likewise, Homura is going through all this trouble not because she feels that owes something to Madoka, but because she really cares about her.

However, because of how cold Homura is, it would seem as if there's no way she could care for someone unless it was an obligation. I am expecting ep10 to reveal the emotional side of Homura and how she is truly driven with her own will to save Madoka, not because of some moral obligation to another person.
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Old 2011-03-08, 14:34   Link #1122
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
What Homura meant is that while Madoka should be grateful that Sayaka helped her, she is not obligated to return the favor. Friends don't force others to pay something back in return.
This doesn't make sense with the context of the conversation, since it is Homura who said Madoka should give up on Sayaka because she didn't owe her anything.

So no, I don't think Homura wants to save Madoka just out of friendship and gratitude. She somehow has a responsibility with her. That's my take.

Let's wait and see what happens.
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Old 2011-03-08, 17:27   Link #1123
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
This doesn't make sense with the context of the conversation, since it is Homura who said Madoka should give up on Sayaka because she didn't owe her anything.
That's why it makes sense. Madoka did not owe Sayaka anything and is not required to return a favor.

Homura by that same token is not required to save Madoka. She is not Madoka's bodyguard, servant, or soldier. Homura is not required to save the world. If she was, she could have killed Madoka to prevent her from making a contract.
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
So no, I don't think Homura wants to save Madoka just out of friendship and gratitude. She somehow has a responsibility with her. That's my take.

Let's wait and see what happens.
Friendship and gratitude do not always go together. Madoka wanting to save Sayaka because she cares about her well-being is different from Madoka wanting to save Sayaka because Sayaka saved her first.
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Old 2011-03-08, 17:53   Link #1124
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
That's why it makes sense. Madoka did not owe Sayaka anything and is not required to return a favor.

I think we're just looking at this from a different perspective.

Anyway, Homura say give up on Sayaka because you don't owe her anything and it's not your responsibility to save her. This implies that if it was Madoka's responsibility, it would be ok (in Homura's eyes) to help Sayaka.

That's why I think is highly possible Homura is trying to save Madoka no only out of love, but also because it is somehow her responsibility, which it would make sense if she was a member of Madoka's family (her mother?) or Madoka's familiar (the cat?). If that was the case, she would try to save Madoka both because she loves her but also because it's her responsibility, her mission to save her.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-03-09 at 15:02.
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Old 2011-03-09, 11:58   Link #1125
Angelmonster
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I think we're just looking at this from a different perspective.

Anyway, Homura say give up on Sayaka because you don't owe her anything and it's not your responsibility to save her. This implies that if it was Madoka's responsibility, it would be ok (in Homura's eyes) to help Sayaka.

That's what I think is highly possible Homura is trying to save Madoka no only out of love, but also because it is somehow her responsibility, which it would make sense if she was a member of Madoka's family (her mother?) or Madoka's familiar (the cat?). If that was the case, she would try to save Madoka both because she loves her but also because it's her responsibility, her mission to save her.
It is pretty obvious to everyone that it is Homura's mission to save Madoka, whether it is a mission Homura gave to herself or if it is a mission future/other world-Madoka gave her. No one can really argue that it is not her mission, just debate on who gave it to her and why she is doing it.
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Old 2011-03-09, 12:17   Link #1126
Shadow5YA
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I don't agree. When Homura said saving Sayaka isn't her responsiblity, it means that it's not her responsibility. Gratitude does not create a responsibility.

I think Homura is attempting to protect Madoka because she wants to, not because she has to.
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Old 2011-03-09, 15:02   Link #1127
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
I think Homura is attempting to protect Madoka because she wants to, not because she has to.
I don't think so, so we'll have to agree to disagree. Anyway, I expect we'll know for sure tomorrow.
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Old 2011-03-09, 16:00   Link #1128
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun
Anyway, I expect we'll know for sure tomorrow.
(Entering Otaku mode)
I will be pleased if my Homu-chan didn't die tomorrow...
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Old 2011-03-09, 16:01   Link #1129
Kazu-kun
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(Entering Otaku mode)
I will be pleased if my Homu-chan didn't die tomorrow...
I'm not worry about that. I don't even think it's possible anyway.
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Old 2011-03-09, 16:09   Link #1130
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Considering that, if Homura was just a friend that wanted to save Madoka out of friendship and gratitude, she would be a fucking hypocrite for saying that to Madoka in episode 7. I don't think she's like that and I definitely don't think this line was just coincidence...
Factor in what she says in episode 8, and you get a better taste of just how hypocritical she is.



i.e.: Yes, Homura. She is thinking about the people who care about her. She's thinking about Sayaka. Just because she's not thinking about you specifically doesn't mean she's heartless or overly self-sacrificial.

Homura's rationale right now boils down to "No, don't worry about what the people around you think! Worry about what _I_ think! I need more attention than them! Me! MEMEMEMEME!" It doesn't make her look deep or mysterious; it just makes her look like a little attentionwhoring bitch. She's not exactly going into the big episode 10 reveal in the most sympathetic light.

btw I'm not sure if you guys know I hate Homura, but I do. Just so you know.
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Old 2011-03-09, 16:41   Link #1131
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
Factor in what she says in episode 8, and you get a better taste of just how hypocritical she is.

i.e.: Yes, Homura. She is thinking about the people who care about her. She's thinking about Sayaka. Just because she's not thinking about you specifically doesn't mean she's heartless or overly self-sacrificial.
I disagree. At this point Sayaka is already a magical girl, and one who is becoming a witch at that. Homura already said that Sayaka CAN NOT be saved.

So when Homura says "think about the people who care about you" she doesn't take Sayaka into consideration, because she thinks Sayaka is no more.

So there's nothing hypocritical about this; it's consistent with her take on Sayaka's situation. You may not like her attitude, but that's a totally different issue.
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Old 2011-03-09, 16:42   Link #1132
ruurguy
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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
Factor in what she says in episode 8, and you get a better taste of just how hypocritical she is.

i.e.: Yes, Homura. She is thinking about the people who care about her. She's thinking about Sayaka. Just because she's not thinking about you specifically doesn't mean she's heartless or overly self-sacrificial.

Homura's rationale right now boils down to "No, don't worry about what the people around you think! Worry about what _I_ think! I need more attention than them! Me! MEMEMEMEME!" It doesn't make her look deep or mysterious; it just makes her look like a little attentionwhoring bitch. She's not exactly going into the big episode 10 reveal in the most sympathetic light.

btw I'm not sure if you guys know I hate Homura, but I do. Just so you know.
I think she is more referring to people like Madoka's family, and not the at that time she felt unredeemable Sayaka when she said that. Sayaka had already rejected Homura's grief seed and was well on her way to becoming a witch which Homura knew about. If you hate her right now that's fine, I think it may be best to reserve final judgment just a bit longer til maybe after episode 10 when we probably find out who Homura really is.
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Old 2011-03-09, 17:30   Link #1133
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
So when Homura says "think about the people who care about you" she doesn't take Sayaka into consideration, because she thinks Sayaka is no more.
And she thinks Sayaka is no more because she cuts through line and places herself above Sayaka on Madoka's "people who care about her" list. Unlike Kyoko, she didn't even give Sayaka a chance for redemption because that would interfere with her own feelings for Madoka.

That kind of action can easily be seen as being entirely ego-driven and hypocritical. There may very well be a valid reason for Homura to act the way she does, and I'll be glad to re-interpret her character when this becomes clear, but as it stands Homura's entire justification is "I won't let you become a Magical Girl because I want you to care about ME."
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Old 2011-03-09, 17:33   Link #1134
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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
Homura looks like a magical girl, so I guess she has to be human!!
What if she's a magical girl from another race. A race who, in the past, were used by QB's race as power source? A race who then took the fight to QB's race? And won (by killing their emotions?)?

But then lost to the Madoka "super witch", so she went back in time to try and stop it?

The Terminator plot, but with added ET.
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Old 2011-03-09, 17:35   Link #1135
Kazu-kun
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And she thinks Sayaka is no more because she cuts through line and places herself above Sayaka on Madoka's "people who care about her" list.
No, she thinks Sayaka is no more because she's a magical girl becoming a witch.

Besides you don't even know that Homura included herself as part of her "people who care about you" line. Chances are she didn't, since she has said before that she already gave up on herself too.

You're just jumping to conclusions without the whole picture.
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Old 2011-03-09, 17:51   Link #1136
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
You're just jumping to conclusions without the whole picture.
What exactly would you call your own argument? Saying "Nope. Homura is a good character and her actions are completely justified" is just as much of a logical leap given information we currently have.
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Old 2011-03-09, 17:56   Link #1137
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Quick question: Do you think Mami is alive considering the zombie-body thingy?

Also, if Homura knew everything about Mahou Shoujos becoming witches, why didn't she just say that to Sayaka so she wouldn't go for it?
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Old 2011-03-09, 18:06   Link #1138
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Quick question: Do you think Mami is alive considering the zombie-body thingy?

Also, if Homura knew everything about Mahou Shoujos becoming witches, why didn't she just say that to Sayaka so she wouldn't go for it?
I would have to go back to watch but I would guess no for Mami. I believe we hear Mami's soul gem get crushed, and she wears it on her head, which was well, an unfortunate spot for it. Plus, at least in the anime we see her un-transform back into her school uniform.

As for telling Sayaka, I guess it depends when you mean? Sayaka is rather untrusting of Homura the whole time. From noticing Homura staring at Madoka in class initially when first introduced to being relayed what sounds like a threat that Homura made to Madoka (think how the whole 'if you care about your family and friends feel, you will stay the same' can sound like a threat vs a warning.) And chasing QB around in episode 1, and later 'letting Mami die just to get a grief seed'. So there was really few if any opportunities based on how their early interactions went that Sayaka would believe anything Homura says.
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Old 2011-03-09, 18:44   Link #1139
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^

Well if Homura said the truth, Kyuubey wouldn't deny it. And then there would be no way for the girls to become Magi.

Also I wonder what was the relationship between Homura and Madoka in the other timeline, maybe they were best friends and Homura watched her sacrifice herself to destroy some poweful witch?
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Old 2011-03-09, 19:27   Link #1140
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So, here's a flaw/glitch/unknown in Kyuubei's plan:

He said back in episode 4 that he expected another Magi to show up to replace Mami. Kyoko then shows up later that episode. However, he said he was surprised that she showed up. Does this mean that he was expecting someone else in particular, or just that he didn't think Kyoko would be the one to show up?

Either way, the main point is that she showed up because Mami vacated the area. Now, her replacements in Sayaka and Kyoko are both gone. Despite this, Kyuubei insists that Homura will be alone on Walpurgis Night. The only way this would make any level of sense is if he personally sent out a sort of vacate notice after Mami died, and won't do it this time.
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