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Old 2011-03-14, 11:23   Link #1281
Triple_R
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Homura grew stronger because of her love for Madoka. She may have experienced a lot of trauma for it, but she went from clumsily swinging a golf club to being able to take out any witch out on her own, with the exception of Walpurgis Night. Despite the suffering, the fact that she has come this far from being the outcast nearly driven to suicide by a Witch says a lot.

Sayaka turning into a Witch can also be seen as her losing her love for other people. She was falling out of love for Kyousuke because Hitomi took him, and she lost her sense of justice because the found that some of the normal people she wanted to protect were jerks, like those two guys on the train.

Finally, while Kyoko did physically die, it was from her own sacrifice instead of being killed. Thanks to Sayaka and Madoka, she was reminded of her love for others and in a sense, received spiritual salvation.
Those are good points.

A helpful way to effectively get a theme across is to show a case where someone failed to live up to the idea behind this theme, and suffered for it (that person may be Sayaka in this case).
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Old 2011-03-14, 11:26   Link #1282
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so it is indeed a heart warming story after all :P
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Old 2011-03-14, 11:31   Link #1283
taofd
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Homura grew stronger because of her love for Madoka. She may have experienced a lot of trauma for it, but she went from clumsily swinging a golf club to being able to take out any witch out on her own, with the exception of Walpurgis Night. Despite the suffering, the fact that she has come this far from being the outcast nearly driven to suicide by a Witch says a lot.

Sayaka turning into a Witch can also be seen as her losing her love for other people. She was falling out of love for Kyousuke because Hitomi took him, and she lost her sense of justice because the found that some of the normal people she wanted to protect were jerks, like those two guys on the train.

Finally, while Kyoko did physically die, it was from her own sacrifice instead of being killed. Thanks to Sayaka and Madoka, she was reminded of her love for others and in a sense, received spiritual salvation.
Agreed. There's a Chinese proverb (I think? lol) about how a mother's love isn't like a bowl of rice to be "split", it's unlimited, etc blah blah blah.

In any I think the key would be that Madoka seems to care about EVERYONE, and that's a pretty consistent theme in all magical girl shows... What better way for Urobuchi to troll us than to be faithful to the one consistent mahou shojou theme, and change everything else?
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Old 2011-03-14, 11:54   Link #1284
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Homura grew stronger because of her love for Madoka. She may have experienced a lot of trauma for it, but she went from clumsily swinging a golf club to being able to take out any witch out on her own, with the exception of Walpurgis Night. Despite the suffering, the fact that she has come this far from being the outcast nearly driven to suicide by a Witch says a lot.

Sayaka turning into a Witch can also be seen as her losing her love for other people. She was falling out of love for Kyousuke because Hitomi took him, and she lost her sense of justice because the found that some of the normal people she wanted to protect were jerks, like those two guys on the train.

Finally, while Kyoko did physically die, it was from her own sacrifice instead of being killed. Thanks to Sayaka and Madoka, she was reminded of her love for others and in a sense, received spiritual salvation.
I understand that but again, their love for eachother hasn't conqured anything. In one loop they are all killed by one of their own. In others they are killed because of Sayaka and her grief. In the end Madoka turns into a witch and will kill the world, including the family she loves. To me that is not love winning over in the end.

The only one working on love was Homura until this time loop, now she is resolved to do whatever she must in order to stop Madoka from contracting, I believe tha tmight include killing her if she must. I just get the feeling next episode she will kill Madoka and let the city get destroyed and the final episode will be a final loop where she is strong enough to save them all, possibly by perfecting her time-powers.
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Old 2011-03-14, 12:02   Link #1285
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Originally Posted by Angelmonster View Post
I understand that but again, their love for eachother hasn't conqured anything. In one loop they are all killed by one of their own. In others they are killed because of Sayaka and her grief. In the end Madoka turns into a witch and will kill the world, including the family she loves. To me that is not love winning over in the end.

The only one working on love was Homura until this time loop, now she is resolved to do whatever she must in order to stop Madoka from contracting, I believe tha tmight include killing her if she must. I just get the feeling next episode she will kill Madoka and let the city get destroyed and the final episode will be a final loop where she is strong enough to save them all, possibly by perfecting her time-powers.
This isn't a Disney story. There is more than love at issue, and it takes more than just love to accomplish great things. Failure on their part does not necessary mean that they are lacking in love or that love is what causes them to fail; there are other causes.
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Old 2011-03-14, 12:10   Link #1286
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
This isn't a Disney story. There is more than love at issue, and it takes more than just love to accomplish great things. Failure on their part does not necessary mean that they are lacking in love or that love is what causes them to fail; there are other causes.
I know, that is what I am saying “Love conquers all” does not work because love is not conquering everything in this story. If anything it is complicating things because Homura should come back and end Madoka’s life if she is going to destroy the world.
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Old 2011-03-14, 12:44   Link #1287
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Originally Posted by Angelmonster View Post
I know, that is what I am saying “Love conquers all” does not work because love is not conquering everything in this story. If anything it is complicating things because Homura should come back and end Madoka’s life if she is going to destroy the world.
No, but by saying "love=tragedy" you are also implying that love is determinental to the characters when there are other causes. Love is the motivation and driving force behind many of the characters. When something physically and actually bad, happens, however, there are more factors than just love.
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Old 2011-03-14, 13:00   Link #1288
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It's interesting that you say that, because it has occurred to me that the theme of this anime may simply be "Love conquers all".
I agree love is the one of the main theme of the story, but we won't be able to say if the theme is "love conquers all" until we see the ending. Love has only led to tragedy so far (Sayaka being the most eloquent example). In fact, the only "winner" of each timeline was the one lacking love or any other kind of emotions, Kyubey.

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But the thing is love hasn’t conqured anything, they all end up dying in the end because of their love. If anything this story is about love=tragedy which really is a bad message, lol. In a way I want this to end on a happy not with everyone alive because of how tragic Homura’s loops have been. Especially this last one where she kind of wants/lets everyone die in the end of their fight. I wonder if she has given up and is going to let Madoka die or, if Walpurisnight is next episode then maybe Madoka will die/turn into a witch and the final episode will be Homura saving everyone by sacrificing herself without ever meeting them. That way the loop ends and they never meet her, meaning Madoka will never have to grieve over losing her bff.
How would that save them? Even if she doesn't meet Homura, Madoka will still become a magical girl (remember she contracted before Homura even transfered to Madoka's school in the first timeline), and then eventually turn into a witch who will destroy the world.
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Old 2011-03-14, 15:42   Link #1289
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It's great that people find such deep meanings in Madoka but sometimes I think too much weight is added to words like "balance". It's a romantic notion to hold, and I note that some posters really think Madoka is some kind of metaphor for humanity, but I have to disagree. Sometimes something simply is, what it is. When the characters speak of balance, they mean it in the karmic sense. The notion is "I got what I deserved" perhaps, something along those lines. It isn't a physical law in the story where everything MUST have a balance.

Every event in the story is the result of choices. Even Mami, on deaths door, could have refused the wish. Sayaka could have taken the help when it was offered to her. Kyouko didn't have to kill herself. Etc., etc., etc. There are choices, even when they aren't choices you like. All else aside, the only universal constant is that every event has consequences. Action or inaction, both carry consequences. We see how this plays out each time Homura loops back into the past. Each time is different, because the choices changed.

We find meaning in that which affects us. It does not automatically mean that what we found meaning in is telling us those things. We interpret as we're inspired, nothing more.
Aww, that's cold, man. You're shutting my entire argument down by saying "you're seeing things that aren't there" without even engaging it on an intellectual level? Do you have any actual reasons for saying this show isn't dealing with the themes I think it is (or rather, as you seem to have interpreted, that it isn't as 'deep' as you think I find it), or do you simply just feel that way? Let me first clarify that I am not talking about any romantic notion of 'balance' or 'karma' in any supranatural sense but precisely the cold hard reality that all actions do have consequences (did you not really grasp the fact that for me this represents a tremendous 'balance' already?).

To put my predictions in the concrete terms being discussed by people in this speculation thread. I feel that this is the final timeline, there will be no resets, and Homura's goals/requirements will be a sideshow. Actions do have consequences, but Homura's endless resets pursuing a 'perfect' or even 'satisfactory' outcome contradict this: does anything really matter if Homura can just redo it all? That isn't how real life works. A lot of you are seriously forgetting, guys, that this show is about Madoka. Forget Homura's dilemma for a moment, look at hers, and see if you can find any answer--see if you could find any value in confronting it now, for real, without any Homura time-travel escape hatch.

Madoka will be resolving the conflict here, and that will be by accepting Kyuubey's contract of her own free will. The origin of all of Homura's suffering right now is a last-minute promise she made with a disillusioned and dying emotional Madoka. "Don't let me become a magical girl", she said, as having witnessed Kyuubey's tricks she felt she could only ever possibly regret it. However, even that Madoka wasn't perfect and all-knowing, guys, and the fact of the matter is that for this Madoka, both the current one facing a tremendous dilemma, and also any prospective Madoka's of the future should Homura continue this path, she will regret not contracting just as much. Because, in the end, Madoka's real feelings are that she does not want to stand by not protecting the things important to her. The fate of powerlessness is something Homura is pushing onto her at the hand of an old Madoka's feelings mistakenly. The difference that has emerged in this present timeline is that finally, Madoka really will know everything, and be prepared to make her wish shouldering the consequences. The key point this act will allow us as an audience to shoulder is that ultimately our happiness, our will and choice and feelings, really are our own responsibility. Even if it is unfair, even if it is painful, and we can hate and hate and blame around us; ultimately, that is how the world works, how nature and self-interest work, so it is up to us to surmount that and still be happy. Madoka is being perfectly set up to acknowledge that, and what Homura needs to learn to accept is that her promise was made to a different Madoka; that the real Madoka now, matured and cogent of the world, would never actually selfishly wish to be spared from all suffering. Madoka, having seen everything now, will be willing to confront the real world, in all it's evil and ugliness and suffering. And so, whatever her feelings, however beautiful her sacrifice, Homura has no right to stop her.

Seriously guys, thinking about it, will you not agree with me about how presciently Madoka's mother's words apply to Homura? They are practically a mirror to her situation. A friend seems to be going somewhere wrong, and whatever you do things just don't turn out right. You're a good girl who is doing your best, and trying to do everything correctly, but sometimes you need to learn to accept a 'mistake' and let something bad happen. Sometimes, the 'right' thing isn't actually right for the world, and who knows, in the end it might not be as bad as you thought it was. More importantly, however, not clinging to ideals is sometimes necessary so everyone can move forward. Even yourself, even those you care for, even your enemies, and the world is still a fun and meaningful world to live in. That is the way things work in the adult (real) world, where you have to learn to accept that not everything can be perfect.

In this show, the not perfect things will be that Homura needs to accept that Madoka will become a Mahou Shoujo, and the viewers will need to accept that Kyuubey needs to meet his quota to be able to be got rid of. Madoka, I think, will already have accepted that if she wants something in this world, she needs to make a sacrifice, even a sacrifice that is painful and does not guarantee anything.. What I think what this show will ultimately be about is Madoka's willingness to hope and move forward despite this.

So anyway, here is my final, last bet, go down with the ship in flames prediction for the ending: current timeline is the last reset, no deus ex machina bullshit, Madoka will overcome WalpurgisNacht by contracting with Kyuubey. Homura's protests will be extinguished by understanding that this is Madoka's true intention; no reset will be triggered because she will either learn to accept Madoka's death, or Madoka will survive somehow (I am betting on this latter). Kyuubey will be dealt with by meeting his quota--he will leave the earth with what he came for, either because Madoka will be able to fulfill his quota without turning into a witch somehow, or else because she, Homura, and others have come up with a plan for dealing with witch Madoka. This story will be about 'hopes and dreams' due to Madoka's determination to continue on despite all this suffering; and the ending will be bittersweet because the audience will be forced to accept that the world isn't perfect. It will be an anime that speaks to the human condition :P, and a true masterpiece.



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This means exactly what it says. For two specific examples, the energy release from Sayaka and Madoka turning into a Witch are shown on screen. This is the energy that Kyubey collects. The energy released that changes the Soul Gem into a Grief Seed, and transfers the soul from the human vessel into the newly created Witch vessel, is what he is after.

To further support this, Kyubey states he doesn't care about humanity after Madoka turns into a Witch. He clearly doesn't need her Grief Seed because he already collected the energy from her transformation into a Witch.

On another note, why people want a bad end of some kind is beyond me. Wasn't most of the episodes including the events of the last episode enough? Maybe it's just me, but I'd like to see these characters get a break after going through so much crap.
On this issue, I am basically saying I am still uncertain. Kyuubey says he 'collects' the energy from the transformation of a witch from a Puella Magi, but we have no idea what this collection mechanism might be meanwhile we see him actively collecting actual Grief Seeds. The conclusion you are drawing basically relies entirely upon Kyuubey leaving while Madoka's Grief Seed hasn't been harvested, but people in the episode 10 thread have already offered possible alternative interpretations. I will wait before buying completely into it.

(The other thing that my explication of the 'emotional energy' system in my previous post offered was a scenario without power buildup in Madoka over timelines. I think the origin/basis of Puella Magi's magical power lies in the courage to hope despite facing the true harshness of reality. Materialistic wishes like most adults would wish for grant little power as they reflect mere cynicism. Meanwhile, naive idealistic wishes like Sayaka's are weak because she similarly can hardly comprehend that things won't work out for her. What Madoka's power and wish will arise from is a true courage and hope in the face of adversity; an optimism and faith that confronts and persists despite all the pain and ugliness this world can show people. In our harsh world where kind people like Madoka in general can only live timidly, the ability to take hold of courage and make that sort of wish would make Madoka someone truly rare and special.)
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-03-14 at 16:15.
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Old 2011-03-14, 16:35   Link #1290
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Sol Falling - Your plot-based predictions for where this anime will go could very well be right. It's not hard to imagine the anime going that way, or close to it.

However, your thematic interpretation of such events would be off considerably, in my opinion.

I don't see how Madoka choosing to sacrifice herself for the greater good would represent her casting aside her ideals. Indeed, a very strong case could be made that such an act would be entirely consistent with her ideals, and her desires for what she wants to be.

And you yourself correctly point out that this Madoka will have a benefit that none others had, and that's of being able to make a fully informed decision on whether or not to contract with Kyubey. And that's why this decision will have a certain meaning and strength to it that the other decisions to contract (or not to contract) lacked.
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Old 2011-03-14, 16:50   Link #1291
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Madoka will be resolving the conflict here, and that will be by accepting Kyuubey's contract of her own free will. The origin of all of Homura's suffering right now is a last-minute promise she made with a disillusioned and dying emotional Madoka.
I beg to differ. I think Madoka in T3 was VERY well aware of what was going on and still had her priorities straight. That's why she asked Homura to stop this all from happening. She even says:

"Could I ask you one more thing? I don't want to become a witch. A lot of horrible and sad things have happened, but there are so many things I had in this world that I want to protect."

Quote:
Because, in the end, Madoka's real feelings are that she does not want to stand by not protecting the things important to her. The fate of powerlessness is something Homura is pushing onto her at the hand of an old Madoka's feelings mistakenly. The difference that has emerged in this present timeline is that finally, Madoka really will know everything, and be prepared to make her wish shouldering the consequences. The key point this act will allow us as an audience to shoulder is that ultimately our happiness, our will and choice and feelings, really are our own responsibility. Even if it is unfair, even if it is painful, and we can hate and hate and blame around us; ultimately, that is how the world works, how nature and self-interest work, so it is up to us to surmount that and still be happy. Madoka is being perfectly set up to acknowledge that, and what Homura needs to learn to accept is that her promise was made to a different Madoka; that the real Madoka now, matured and cogent of the world, would never actually selfishly wish to be spared from all suffering. Madoka, having seen everything now, will be willing to confront the real world, in all it's evil and ugliness and suffering. And so, whatever her feelings, however beautiful her sacrifice, Homura has no right to stop her.
I think there is a little bit of personal bias here. You are applying your values to Madoka- how do you know she will feel the same?

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That is the way things work in the adult (real) world, where you have to learn to accept that not everything can be perfect.
Are you sure the point of the story isn't to reject the evils of adults?

You get more and more subjective the farther along you argue. I recommend if you want people to agree with you to reinforce your arguments with evidence.
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Old 2011-03-14, 16:55   Link #1292
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Sol Falling - Your plot-based predictions for where this anime will go could very well be right. It's not hard to imagine the anime going that way, or close to it.

However, your thematic interpretation of such events would be off considerably, in my opinion.

I don't see how Madoka choosing to sacrifice herself for the greater good would represent her casting aside her ideals. Indeed, a very strong case could be made that such an act would be entirely consistent with her ideals, and her desires for what she wants to be.

And you yourself correctly point out that this Madoka will have a benefit that none others had, and that's of being able to make a fully informed decision on whether or not to contract with Kyubey. And that's why this decision will have a certain meaning and strength to it that the other decisions to contract (or not to contract) lacked.
Ah, you seem to be making a big jump here which I had no intention of making really. Madoka will not be choosing to 'sacrifice' herself for a greater good or anything. Madoka's main concern is, again, the things and people important to her. Madoka's determination will, like Kyouko told her last episode, arise entirely from personal feelings and from necessity, not from idealism; the idea is that if Madoka does not contract, she will lose everything she ever cared for--that this is an inevitability, and that this is unchangeable; and that Madoka, accepting this, will embrace the contract and all it's consequences of her own will and taking them as her own responsibility, nevertheless not turning to hate and holding onto hope for the future despite how harsh and unfair it is. No ideals, no martyrdom or altruism, simply an acceptance of the unfeeling world as it is and the courage to hope for good in it regardless.
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Old 2011-03-14, 17:00   Link #1293
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Ah, you seem to be making a big jump here which I had no intention of making really. Madoka will not be choosing to 'sacrifice' herself for a greater good or anything. Madoka's main concern is, again, the things and people important to her. Madoka's determination will, like Kyouko told her last episode, arise entirely from personal feelings and from necessity, not from idealism; the idea is that if Madoka does not contract, she will lose everything she ever cared for--that this is an inevitability, and that this is unchangeable; and that Madoka, accepting this, will embrace the contract and all it's consequences of her own will and taking them as her own responsibility, nevertheless not turning to hate and holding onto hope for the future despite how harsh and unfair it is. No ideals, no martyrdom or altruism, simply an acceptance of the unfeeling world as it is and the courage to hope for good in it regardless.
The only problem with that line of reasoning is that if Madoka does contract, the results will be the same, except she would be the witch doing the destroying of everything she holds dear.
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Old 2011-03-14, 17:04   Link #1294
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Ah, you seem to be making a big jump here which I had no intention of making really. Madoka will not be choosing to 'sacrifice' herself for a greater good or anything.
Becoming a magical girl (at least through Kyubey contraction) is a sacrifice, no matter how you slice it. Homura and Sayaka felt that it cost them their very humanity, and there's no question that it ends up requiring a life of frequent battles in order to stave off becoming a witch.


Quote:
Madoka's main concern is, again, the things and people important to her.
Which to me is a very altruistic and admirable concern, when you put such a concern ahead of your own personal well-being.

It's precisely the sort of thing that Superman would do (if needbe), and we know how idealistic he is.

I think that you may be confusing moral idealism with pragmatically perfect solutions.

Yes, it's quite conceivable that Homura and Madoka will need to settle for less than a pragmatically perfect solution, but that's not the same as casting aside one's core moral values or ideals.
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Old 2011-03-14, 17:11   Link #1295
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While I can understand Sol Falling perspective I can't help but find such an outcome completely unpalatable. I feel Madoka sacrificing herself for the greater good will have meant nothing really changed. It seems pointless to me that her naive side and her now informed side will make the same decision.

I find that becoming a magical girl has been shown to be a fake sense of power while being human has been shown to be a fake sense of powerlessness. Even when Madoka was a MG she was unable to prevent the deaths of her friends. All that confidence and supposed talent led to no better of an outcome. Magical girls are just pawns and to overcome this fate she'd has to find a way to defeat Walpurgis night without it. Even if she dies in the end which I expect either her or Homura to do it is still a much better ending, imho. No dues ex machina just have to find out what QB is truly about as I don't think we've unlocked all the mysteries about him or his plots.

Also I feel that if Madoka does eventually become a MG it will only make her and the other girl irrelevant cogs in QB entropy plots. There deaths for a "greater good" seem like we would be giving into QB's ideals that their lives are fairly meaningless compared to his grander aims. What will be the point of Madoka focusing in on the individual suffering of these girls if she become a MG proving his ideals. She's no longer naive about the consequences of being a magical girl that doesn't mean that making the same decision is any less foolish. Every path so far she's chosen to become a MG and its only led to similar ends so now why shouldn't she choose the truly harder path? The path of fighting even when "powerless".
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Old 2011-03-14, 17:22   Link #1296
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Sometimes, you have to choose to save innocent people rather than bringing villains to justice, due to the opportunity costs associated with both.

I really think that people should give up on the idea of Kyubey getting his "just desserts". I'm pretty skeptical of that happening. For one thing, I don't know if Homura and Madoka are the sort of people to try to completely wipe him out from a sheer longing for revenge. Homura is killing individual Kyubey's repeatedly, sure, but that's simply to protect Madoka.
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Old 2011-03-14, 17:27   Link #1297
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Sometimes, you have to choose to save innocent people rather than bringing villains to justice, due to the opportunity costs associated with both.

I really think that people should give up on the idea of Kyubey getting his "just desserts". I'm pretty skeptical of that happening. For one thing, I don't know if Homura and Madoka are the sort of people to try to completely wipe him out from a sheer longing for revenge. Homura is killing individual Kyubey's repeatedly, sure, but that's simply to protect Madoka.
I could care less about QB as an individual but the system he control's needs its "just deserts"(one S my friend). If not saving these lives is pointless imo. Also I'm saying we have to look for another way not use QB logic that the only way to do it is become a magical girl and condemn yourself to the fate he chose for you.
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Old 2011-03-14, 17:39   Link #1298
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I could care less about QB as an individual but the system he control's needs its "just deserts"(one S my friend). If not saving these lives is pointless imo. Also I'm saying we have to look for another way not use QB logic that the only way to do it is become a magical girl and condemn yourself to the fate he chose for you.
One area where I see Sol's point, and might come to agree with it, is that Kyubey and his magical girl/witch system could represent the inevitable evil or corruption of real world human life.

He could represent all the dishonesty, all the subterfuge, all the natural disasters, and all the inescapable hard choices, that we encounter in life. He could represent how picture perfect solutions are rarely there to be had in life. You get power, but it comes at a cost. You heal a boy's hand, but it comes at a cost. You protect a friend, but it comes at a cost.

In real life, gaining power typically requires hard work, comparable to hunting witches in this anime's world perhaps.

In real life, healing a boy's hand might require burying yourself in scientific research and study, diligently searching for a solution, giving up on much of your social life.

You protect a friend, but that can take effort, and you still have to respect your friend's decisions...

I don't completely share Sol Falling's perspective here, but I do see some possible real world analogies here, and Kyubey representing a sort of inescapable downside to life.
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Old 2011-03-14, 17:40   Link #1299
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Sometimes, you have to choose to save innocent people rather than bringing villains to justice, due to the opportunity costs associated with both.
I agree with this, but....

@Sol Falling

But I still find the theory of Madoka sacrificing at the end hard to swallow. I mean, Madoka from timeline 4 already did that. The only difference this time would be that she knows everything about MGs, so it wouldn't be a sacrifice out of naive heroism...

I understand that, but, isn't it still the same thing in the end? I mean, Madoka's actions and the outcome would still be the same, right? There would be a sense of hope, but in the end it wouldn't be real hope, IMO. Such an ending feels like a coup-out to me:

Madoka: "Yes, now I know all the shit about the MGs, but I'm still going to do the same. You know, because I hope.......... "

Sorry, I just don't see it. I mean, I want an actual ending, when Madoka's maturity and change of mind-set result in a change of actions, not her doing the same all over again.

I don't know. Just some thoughts.
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Old 2011-03-14, 17:53   Link #1300
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by taofd View Post
I beg to differ. I think Madoka in T3 was VERY well aware of what was going on and still had her priorities straight. That's why she asked Homura to stop this all from happening. She even says:

"Could I ask you one more thing? I don't want to become a witch. A lot of horrible and sad things have happened, but there are so many things I had in this world that I want to protect."
This quote in fact reinforces my position that Homura will be causing Madoka grief if she forces her to stay timid and powerless. Madoka has things she wants to protect. Ultimately, she will be willing to sacrifice and fight for them; and the reality may be that the Puella Magi contract is the only way to do that.

Quote:
I think there is a little bit of personal bias here. You are applying your values to Madoka- how do you know she will feel the same?

Are you sure the point of the story isn't to reject the evils of adults?
:P That's why this is a speculation, my personal predictions, and a bet. I am pretty sure though. Madoka's mother and her advice don't come off to me as something terrible or evil, and adulthood is something that really all people have to eventually face.

Quote:
You get more and more subjective the farther along you argue. I recommend if you want people to agree with you to reinforce your arguments with evidence.
My ideas are born from an analysis of the thematic aspects of the show, which are of course open to interpretation. I think I cover pretty thoroughly the thematic connections my theories have with the show in my above post and also the previous one, but if people don't see the same things as I do I can't do much about that. I am partly just laying this out there in anticipation of the finale; I am at least quite firmly convinced from my personal perspective.


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Originally Posted by Zippicus View Post
The only problem with that line of reasoning is that if Madoka does contract, the results will be the same, except she would be the witch doing the destroying of everything she holds dear.
:P As I said, I am betting this is not the case. The important detail in this instance is that Madoka knows about the threat of turning into a witch beforehand.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Becoming a magical girl (at least through Kyubey contraction) is a sacrifice, no matter how you slice it. Homura and Sayaka felt that it cost them their very humanity, and there's no question that it ends up requiring a life of frequent battles in order to stave off becoming a witch.
If Madoka truly has as much potential as we have been led to believe she has, I believe the latter is not such a terrible fate providing she can actually get there (i.e. not turn into a witch immediately after defeating Walpurgis for some reason, a phenomenon which we still have no solid explanation for). I feel that the sacrifice Madoka will have to make will have a much higher upfront cost in comparison to what she might have to deal with afterwards. This is providing, as I expect but cannot certainly say, she does not die.

Quote:
Which to me is a very altruistic and admirable concern, when you put such a concern ahead of your own personal well-being.

It's precisely the sort of thing that Superman would do (if needbe), and we know how idealistic he is.

I think that you may be confusing moral idealism with pragmatically perfect solutions.

Yes, it's quite conceivable that Homura and Madoka will need to settle for less than a pragmatically perfect solution, but that's not the same as casting aside one's core moral values or ideals.
People require things of moral or material value to even consider that they are living their lives meaningfully. Wanting to protect those things is nothing more than wanting to protect their own existence, and I think is only natural. I do not consider such intentions to be 'altruistic', though this is not at all a condemnation of people in general either. Superman might take it upon himself to risk his life to save an unknown child in danger, but I do not believe this can be expected of Madoka, nor should it be. If Madoka will be donating energy to Kyuubey's 'Energy Fund' to get rid of him, I do not believe it will be for the sake of any of the actual good Kyuubey will be able to do with that energy, but rather because she wishes to stop Kyuubey and his system from threatening and causing suffering, to the people closest to her.

If this isn't where you are differing from me in my thematic impressions than I am afraid I might have to ask you to clarify? Which aspect of my interpretations of the possible plot or the characters are you disagreeing with exactly?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
While I can understand Sol Falling perspective I can't help but find such an outcome completely unpalatable. I feel Madoka sacrificing herself for the greater good will have meant nothing really changed. It seems pointless to me that her naive side and her now informed side will make the same decision.

I find that becoming a magical girl has been shown to be a fake sense of power while being human has been shown to be a fake sense of powerlessness. Even when Madoka was a MG she was unable to prevent the deaths of her friends. All that confidence and supposed talent led to no better of an outcome. Magical girls are just pawns and to overcome this fate she'd has to find a way to defeat Walpurgis night without it. Even if she dies in the end which I expect either her or Homura to do it is still a much better ending, imho. No dues ex machina just have to find out what QB is truly about as I don't think we've unlocked all the mysteries about him or his plots.

Also I feel that if Madoka does eventually become a MG it will only make her and the other girl irrelevant cogs in QB entropy plots. There deaths for a "greater good" seem like we would be giving into QB's ideals that their lives are fairly meaningless compared to his grander aims. What will be the point of Madoka focusing in on the individual suffering of these girls if she become a MG proving his ideals. She's no longer naive about the consequences of being a magical girl that doesn't mean that making the same decision is any less foolish. Every path so far she's chosen to become a MG and its only led to similar ends so now why shouldn't she choose the truly harder path? The path of fighting even when "powerless".
As I said, again, there is no aspect of 'the greater good' I am attributing to Madoka's motivations. Kyuubey is her enemy (in that he is bringing suffering to people she cares about), she wants to get rid of him--however, I think probably the only way it is possible for her to do so is to somehow fulfill his needs and get him away from here. The key difference between previous Madoka Magicas and the prospective predicted one is that the new Madoka will have a concrete goal and personal objective--she will not be fighting for goodness or the sake of others, she will be fighting for herself and the things most important to her. Madoka knows that turning into a witch and going into a rampage is unacceptable, and perhaps also knows that her own death is unacceptable to Homura. Rather than searching for some sort of unconceivable miracle solution to this dilemma, as Homura has struggled with, and is the precise sort of situation her mother earlier comforted and gave her advice about, it might be a sad necessity that in order to move forward she will have to work on loosening these requirements of 'perfectness' and abandon what's impossible.


edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I agree with this, but....

@Sol Falling

But I still find the theory of Madoka sacrificing at the end hard to swallow. I mean, Madoka from timeline 4 already did that. The only difference this time would be that she knows everything about MGs, so it wouldn't be a sacrifice out of naive heroism...

I understand that, but, isn't it still the same thing in the end? I mean, Madoka's actions and the outcome would still be the same, right? There would be a sense of hope, but in the end it wouldn't be real hope, IMO. Such an ending feels like a coup-out to me:

Madoka: "Yes, now I know all the shit about the MGs, but I'm still going to do the same. You know, because I hope.......... "

Sorry, I just don't see it. I mean, I want an actual ending, when Madoka's maturity and change of mind-set result in a change of actions, not her doing the same all over again.

I don't know. Just some thoughts.
...Well, guys, could I first just reinforce here, that my primary expectation is that Madoka will not die. I am not crossing it out, 'cause is could still fit thematically, but right now I am still completely baffled why Madoka taking out Walpurgis somehow means Madoka will definately turn into a witch within an immediate time period. Mami, Kyouko, Homura, each of these girls seem to me to have survived for some time as successful mahou shoujos. So a principle aspect, at least of my expectations for the show, is that Madoka neither dies nor becomes a witch despite becoming a Puella Magi. This isn't so much 'blind hope' and the moment, nor just doing the same thing, as I feel that there is still some room within the system.
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God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
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Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-03-14 at 18:13.
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