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Old 2011-04-07, 23:24   Link #1841
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
:P With regards to Kyuubey's quote in itself, that doesn't say anything as to how Kyuubey collects that energy. Could Kyuubey in fact be collecting the 'emitted' energy by ingesting the Grief Seeds magical girls bring to him? That is in fact still a perfectly believable reading.

"It's our job to collect that energy."
"To consume Grief Seeds is also one of our functions."

See the connection?

(Also, if Homura's wish didn't actually give Kyuubey any energy, then how would it have helped decrease the entropy of the universe? Homura hadn't turned into a witch yet.)
How is it a perfectly believable reading when you're taking two quotes from two different occasions? "Also one of our functions" implies that Kyubey has more than just his duty to collect energy, and that consuming Grief Seeds is one of them.
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Old 2011-04-08, 00:06   Link #1842
Akashin
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
This had me stumped and pretty much going along with the generally accepted explanation for awhile, like most of you guys. But really, there isn't actually that much time difference between Madoka accepting the contract and Madoka turning into a witch in timeline 4. In fact, by the time of Kyuubey and Homura's conversation, the former had very much 'only just happened' as well, so from my perspective at least this aspect of the theories does not look to be any less convincing.

(In fact, if you look at the dialogue actually, Kyuubey even leads in with "She really was amazing...when she transformed. I didn't expect her to take out Walpurgis in one hit blahblahblah etc." So he's initially talking about Madoka's Magical Girl transformation. As part of the same conversation, then, this could just as easily also be presumed as the source Kyuubey got his energy from when he goes on to say "I've surpassed my quota".)
You could very well be right on this point. My interpretation of that quote was that the "transformation" he was referring to was her transformation into a Witch, but you raise a good point in pointing out its connection to the line that came after. It could be that the two lines aren't so closely related and that he was talking about her taking out Walpurgis in one blow (which, I think at least, means she probably spent all her magic on that one blow) then going Witch, but given how easily it could go either way I won't fight this point too hard. In all fairness, your interpretation of that quote sounds a bit more plausible.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
This might be counterintuitive, but did you know that the act of 'decreasing entropy' (i.e. creating more usable energy which can later be used) is actually the opposite of a big impressive explosion, but rather the packing of energy into more 'fuel'-like compact forms such as a tree growing or a dam filling up? After you burn a piece of wood or let all of the water out of a dam, the potential energy that was stored up in them is basically converted to 'free' kinetic energy which dissipates and then can't be used anymore. So in fact, a big explosion like what followed Sayaka's witch transformation was not actually adding useful energy (i.e. decreasing entropy) into the system but rather decreasing it, if we took it somewhat literally. Useful energy is the energy that is stored in more complex, compact and ordered forms/structures (such as, for example at least cosmetically convincingly, Grief Seeds) as opposed to 'free' energy which pretty much just wastes itself bouncing around as more simple molecules. So in this case, the concentration of negative emotions into dark power in Grief Seeds is actually a much more convincing illustration to me of the 'creation' of energy, than the haphazard 'release' of energy which randomly flies around during a witch transformation. The witch transformation actually demonstrates nothing at all which really indicates it is 'improving entropy'. It is not really explosions, but rather the creation of fuel-like things which would seem to indicate such a process happening.
=/

I did know this, which makes the scene in question a little strange. However, that scene is more or less consistent with Kyubey's quote in episode 9 about the transformation releasing an immense amount of energy that he has to collect. So while from a realistic standpoint this is true, if we go by what has been said within the series itself my point stands. In all fairness, however, we also don't really see such an explosion when Madoka goes Witch in TL2 (that I recall; I could be misremembering), so...

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
(Also, if Homura's wish didn't actually give Kyuubey any energy, then how would it have helped decrease the entropy of the universe? Homura hadn't turned into a witch yet.)
That scene in particular has caused me a great deal of confusion. Notably, the subs I watched in fact said something more along the lines of "your wish has surpassed entropy". And since all wishes could technically be said to surpass entropy, I left it at that. But since as far as I can tell other subs are saying different things, I'm not so sure anymore. Which translation is considered more technically correct, if either?
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Old 2011-04-08, 00:22   Link #1843
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
(Also, if Homura's wish didn't actually give Kyuubey any energy, then how would it have helped decrease the entropy of the universe? Homura hadn't turned into a witch yet.)
Because Homura's soul was changed to a more compact, energy dense form.
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Old 2011-04-08, 00:32   Link #1844
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
How is it a perfectly believable reading when you're taking two quotes from two different occasions? "Also one of our functions" implies that Kyubey has more than just his duty to collect energy, and that consuming Grief Seeds is one of them.
:P It's perfectly believable in that it's consistent with alternative and earlier interpretations of the series and that there is nothing said in the line to contradict it. The "also" in the chronologically earlier line I quoted refers to Kyuubey's 'primary' function of making Puella Magi out of ordinary girls. I am just making the point that collecting Grief Seeds is one of Kyuubey's jobs/functions (like collecting energy supposedly is), and one of the most sensible/obvious explanations for why this might be true for him is that because by doing so he gains magical energy. I.e. the job that Kyuubey refers to in those two quotes is actually one and the same.


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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
=/

I did know this, which makes the scene in question a little strange. However, that scene is more or less consistent with Kyubey's quote in episode 9 about the transformation releasing an immense amount of energy that he has to collect. So while from a realistic standpoint this is true, if we go by what has been said within the series itself my point stands. In all fairness, however, we also don't really see such an explosion when Madoka goes Witch in TL2 (that I recall; I could be misremembering), so...
lol, I can essentially agree that there is a whole lot of vagueness here, and that we can't really make a solid conclusion one way or another. The main reason why I prefer this other explanation is because it makes the whole show more tight and conceptually solid. If Grief Seeds don't actually conveniently store emotional energy, then one of the explanations we must certainly see in the final episodes is what purpose they actually serve at all. But yeah, I'm basically willing to just leave this as a possibility until the rest of the show starts actually airing.

Quote:
That scene in particular has caused me a great deal of confusion. Notably, the subs I watched in fact said something more along the lines of "your wish has surpassed entropy". And since all wishes could technically be said to surpass entropy, I left it at that. But since as far as I can tell other subs are saying different things, I'm not so sure anymore. Which translation is considered more technically correct, if either?
Translation-wise, I've got no idea either :P. The couple of literal translations I did see being thrown around included, indeed, words like 'surpass' or 'overcome'. The main thing is, if that sentence was indeed essentially a non-statement as you've suggested, then it might seem to serve no purpose. I find it most natural, as Shadow5YA had suggested, to read that line as Kyuubey expressing gratitude for having helped him (somehow) reduce entropy.

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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Because Homura's soul was changed to a more compact, energy dense form.
That doesn't necessarily help me here, as Homura's soul is/was not actually composed of energy. As far as we know, Kyuubey does not in fact use/harvest Soul Gems. At least some of Homura's emotions must have been converted into (usable, by Kyuubey) energy for it to make sense to say that she's helped 'improve' entropy.
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-04-08 at 00:42.
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Old 2011-04-08, 00:57   Link #1845
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That's not correct. If it was, then Kyubei would have an interest in preserving the location he's responsible for, if only for some place to gather next month's quota from. But as we saw, he's willing to abandon the planet completely once his quota is filled and the planet is doomed. His quota is a one-time thing.
You're assuming the location would be destroyed. Magical girls fight witches, remember? Perhaps he's confident more girls will come along to deal with Madoka-witch. Or perhaps it's another weakness in the story, or wasn't translated well. Heh, personally, I'd take it as further proof Gen doesn't quite understand what he's talking about. Leaving the golden goose to burn isn't a smart strategy, and you can't just solve entropy with a random set amount of energy.

Anyway, this wouldn't be the first time Gen used convenience and hoped the audience wouldn't notice in this series. Or maybe we're supposed to suspend our disbelief even farther and ignore the potentially conflicting information? I wonder, how far must we stretch before we say, "Housten, we have a problem"?

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
:P With regards to Kyuubey's quote in itself, that doesn't say anything as to how Kyuubey collects that energy. Could Kyuubey in fact be collecting the 'emitted' energy by ingesting the Grief Seeds magical girls bring to him? That is in fact still a perfectly believable reading.

"It's our job to collect that energy."
"To consume Grief Seeds is also one of our functions."

See the connection?

(Also, if Homura's wish didn't actually give Kyuubey any energy, then how would it have helped decrease the entropy of the universe? Homura hadn't turned into a witch yet.)
Those can still be understood as two separate functions, not necessarily directly connected. If witches can be reborn after too much seed use, then permanently defeating witches wouldn't be possible. With new ones being born all the time, the planet would be overrun. Thus, it would be in Kyube's interest to put those seeds somewhere safe.

At this point, though, given all that I've seen, I've pretty much accepted that Gen can't be consistent. I'm pretty much done trying to do mental contortions to make everything fit, when it feels fairly obvious he's not paying attention to details, nor doing much research. He picked up a few terms and decided to try and be clever.

Hell, Kyube's whole "plan" there in episode 9 blew my mind... he wanted Homura alone to deal with Walpurgis, and thus counted on Kyoko doing a 180 spin on her nature to try and help Sayaka and die in the attempt, thus leaving Homura alone! That's a great plan that relies on a lot of luck and people not acting like themselves. The Joker from "The Dark Knight" would be pleased!
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Old 2011-04-08, 00:57   Link #1846
Akashin
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
lol, I can essentially agree that there is a whole lot of vagueness here, and that we can't really make a solid conclusion one way or another. The main reason why I prefer this other explanation is because it makes the whole show more tight and conceptually solid. If Grief Seeds don't actually conveniently store emotional energy, then one of the explanations we must certainly see in the final episodes is what purpose they actually serve at all. But yeah, I'm basically willing to just leave this as a possibility until the rest of the show starts actually airing.
Well, no arguments here as far as making the show more conceptually solid is concerned. I stand by my belief simply because it seems to currently be the most plausible, but there is a good question here. So I'll say this idea has merit and is plausible, and will humbly bow and accept defeat if/when the series proves you right.

On a slightly unrelated note, though, I don't necessarily think the Grief Seeds need to have a specific purpose beyond cleansing Soul Gems. I mean, while I've never seen them be referred to as such, Grief Seeds are basically corpses, after all. While its would be nice to see them have some other purpose, I won't go so far as to say that's required.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Translation-wise, I've got no idea either :P. The couple of literal translations I did see being thrown around included, indeed, words like 'surpass' or 'overcome'. The main thing is, if that sentence was indeed essentially a non-statement as you've suggested, then it might seem to serve no purpose. I find it most natural, as Shadow5YA had suggested, to read that line as Kyuubey expressing gratitude for having helped him (somehow) reduce entropy.
I actually sat back and thought this point over for a few minutes, but I can't seem to come up with a compelling counter-argument. It could be that if his line wasn't a non-statement that he was referring to her inevitable future Witch-dom, but that seems unlikely given that he pretty much had to be aware she'd be turning back the clock in a few seconds. The line itself works pretty well as a pointless line, but I do agree that it sounds pretty odd when its used that way. I'm not sure where I stand on the idea of this line having deeper meaning but, as I said, I can't really find an argument against that idea.
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Old 2011-04-08, 02:58   Link #1847
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There's something that's bothered me about the time-travel thing. Apparantly, Homura travels - soul-gem-wise - back to her original body. But what happens to the soul that hitherto inhabited the body? Imagine the sould automatically flowing into the soul gem at that point. Then imagine Homura going back in time again and again and again... She would becasically become something like a rechargable battery, but since she doesn't spend her entire soul in one go, she'd actually accumulate energy across timelines, until she eventually turns into a super-powerful witch.

Strangely, though, it's Madoka who seems to grow stronger. Does the nature of the wish transcend bodies? Is part of Madoka's power residual alternate Homura soul?

*Head spins*

Of course, time-travel does out-do entropy. (Imagine it like this: Take two batteries each of which can power 20 minutes of time travel. Drop one battery, then go 10 minutes into the future. Pick up the battery. Go back to the past in minute increments - to avoid time machine overlap - and pick up the battery each increment. Then use one of the batteries to power the time machine, and drop all others you have collected. Repeat. This is not just a perpetuum mobile...)
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Old 2011-04-08, 04:28   Link #1848
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She would becasically become something like a rechargable battery, but since she doesn't spend her entire soul in one go, she'd actually accumulate energy across timelines, until she eventually turns into a super-powerful witch.
Oops. if it proves true, there goes one of the arguments against "Homura=Walpurgis Night" theory. We've still got the time travel one left (there is no info on whether a witch's power inherits anything from the Puella Magi she's born from)... but it's not that hard to imagine the situation where Homura finally beats WN, exhausts herself... and uses the last remains of her power to send herself somewhere else in time, as far away from Madoka as possible. The said somehwere else happens to be... Wait, this speculah goes hand in hand with the question of whether Homura can control timeloop trigger or not... My, this development would require solid work on Gen's side. But I can't help seeing it as slightly more probable now...

Ah, wait. It all smashes against the third counterargument, Kyouko's words: "Walpurgis Night has never come to this town before". Plus Mami is also informed of it in TL1. Meaning Walpurgis Night has come more then once (this, coincidentally, plays in favour of the destruction scenery being part of her barrier - if such a witch could reveal herself in the real world, she would have obviously done that in the past, and it would have been in all media). Of course there is an option that it IS the same witch, and nobody could beat her up until now... But then where does the idea of successfully teaming up on her come from? Or maybe WN is so strong that managing to drive her away was always considered successful enough?
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Old 2011-04-08, 05:33   Link #1849
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
You're assuming the location would be destroyed.
Read Gretchen's witch card. She'll suck all life into her barrier. The end for life on Earth.

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Magical girls fight witches, remember? Perhaps he's confident more girls will come along to deal with Madoka-witch.
The thing is, he doesn't care. If he did care, he'd take the opportunity to find the next most powerful magical girl, point to Gretchen and tell her, "Make a wish, defeat that and save the world." It's like a rancher saying he's done, then opening the barn doors before walking off into the sunset.
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Old 2011-04-08, 06:32   Link #1850
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Hell, Kyube's whole "plan" there in episode 9 blew my mind... he wanted Homura alone to deal with Walpurgis, and thus counted on Kyoko doing a 180 spin on her nature to try and help Sayaka and die in the attempt, thus leaving Homura alone! That's a great plan that relies on a lot of luck and people not acting like themselves. The Joker from "The Dark Knight" would be pleased!
To tackle your last point; don't forget that Kyoko first asked Kyube if Sayaka could be saved. Kyube merely exploited the situation Kyoko gave him. It's not like he was planning on encouraging Kyoko to sacrifice herself from the start. Kyube simply took advantage of an opportunity.
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Old 2011-04-08, 06:45   Link #1851
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The thing is, he doesn't care. If he did care, he'd take the opportunity to find the next most powerful magical girl, point to Gretchen and tell her, "Make a wish, defeat that and save the world." It's like a rancher saying he's done, then opening the barn doors before walking off into the sunset.
His words about quota fulfilled are also curious. From his ep9 Lecture for the Morally Depressed I get it that they investigated quite a number of planets and civilizations before discovering humanity. The quota thing implies that they DID find other suitable races on other planets - otherwise wouldn't it be more logical to milk the only planet found to its extreme?
Then again, the situation with Gretchen makes him look not like the aforedescribed rancher but rather like a miner digging up no matter what - when one day the walls start trembling and it's clear that a cave-in is happening in no time, this miner says: "oh well, I fulfilled my quota here".
The very idea of defeating Gretchen seems vague enough, especially with her neat techniques hinting at sucking people in and drowning their minds in alternate-universe-like dream (Girlfriend of Steel, anyone? ). To deal with her, Kyuubey would need either to gather a fantastic magical girl army (good luck bringing them to work together etc.) or to find another overpowered magical girl like you said... but: A) if finding such girls was that easy, he wouldn't stalk Madoka so persistently in the first place, and B) once he finds that ultrapowerful girl and she defeats Gretchen, she'll be on her way to becoming an even STRONGER witch. Even if the energy release from her birth will postpone heat death of the universe for about half an eternity... where's the guarantee the new witch won't expand her influence beyond the planet and eventually go Jenova on Kyuubey's homeworld itself? "Yay, heat death is no longer an option, but it looks like the universe is done for anyway..." I don't think it's a scenario Kyuubey would support.
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Old 2011-04-08, 12:06   Link #1852
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
The thing is, he doesn't care. If he did care, he'd take the opportunity to find the next most powerful magical girl, point to Gretchen and tell her, "Make a wish, defeat that and save the world." It's like a rancher saying he's done, then opening the barn doors before walking off into the sunset.
Oh yes, I do agree, on the face of it, it does sound rather stupid. Then again, you're the one who feels Kyube knows all about witches and such, so perhaps he knows something that we don't.

However, personally, I feel it is another nail in the coffin for why this series has major issues, heh. I mentioned above about how stupid it was to let the goose who lays the golden eggs, die.

Another thing, is that those cards are "extra materials" and you know my opinion on those, heh. I generally feel a series should be able to stand on it's own. If a series won't make sense without a dictionary, or won't be complete without it, then there are issues (and note, I do apply this to Nanoha, too, which is a favorite series of mine). Extra stuff is fine for perhaps fleshing out things that were dealt with sufficiently in the show, but I hesitate to accept them as canon.

At any rate, plenty of witches have special abilities and whatnot that would be bad for humanity... if the witches were allowed to live. Though again, I agree that the situation and explanations are so conflicting and contradictory. Either Gen needs to pull a helluva good explanation out of his ass in the next two episodes (something I don't think he is likely to attempt), or he just doesn't understand the concepts well enough that he is using.

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To tackle your last point; don't forget that Kyoko first asked Kyube if Sayaka could be saved. Kyube merely exploited the situation Kyoko gave him. It's not like he was planning on encouraging Kyoko to sacrifice herself from the start. Kyube simply took advantage of an opportunity.
Partly I'll agree; by that point, he might have thought it likely Kyoko might attempt something. However, he was already trying to institute his plan when he approached Homura and Kyoko earlier in episode 8. And even after Kyoko's questions about whether Sayaka could be saved, there was still no way to predict that she'd actually die, and the scene at the implies he planned for Kyoko to die so Homura wouldn't be enough and thus Madoka would need to contract.

And even if we assume he somehow knew she was going to die, his plan relies on Madoka becoming an MG. And even if she becomes an MG... will she even become a witch and thus give him the energy he's after, or die first? 30% success rate, remember. He's giving up Kyoko for a slim chance at getting energy from Madoka.

Homura isn't the only one who decided to hit for another card while holding a 19.
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Old 2011-04-08, 12:29   Link #1853
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there's no reason to make the assumption yet that Kyuubey gets the energy directly somehow from the transformation process (he's not even around when it happens! How does any of that make sense really?).
In episode 9, QB stated that when the magical girl's soul burns out and the Soul Gem shutters and turns into a Grief Seed, an enormous quantity of energy is released. QB's job is to take that energy. This implies QB takes the energy from when the magical girl becomes a witch, at that specific moment, because is the moment when the energy is released and at its pick.

Episode 10 proves that much, as he states he fulfilled his quota only after Madoka has already turned into a witch. This is why he doesn't need the Grief Seed to collect the energy, though he does need the magical girl to turn into witch.
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Old 2011-04-08, 13:04   Link #1854
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In episode 9, QB stated that when the magical girl's soul burns out and the Soul Gem shutters and turns into a Grief Seed, an enormous quantity of energy is released. QB's job is to take that energy. This implies QB takes the energy from when the magical girl becomes a witch, at that specific moment, because is the moment when the energy is released and at its pick.
The question is still, how? In what form and through which method does Kyuubey collect that energy?

Here's a thought for you guys. What is exactly that release of energy which occurs during a witch transformation? Just a random blast of wind? Alternatively, what may be actually happening is the establishment of a witch barrier.

In that case, how does Kyuubey collect a witch's energy? What's a witch's source of power in the first place? Again, we go back to the Grief Seed, and the dark emotions stored up within it.

Quote:
Episode 10 proves that much, as he states he fulfilled his quota only after Madoka has already turned into a witch. This is why he doesn't need the Grief Seed to collect the energy, though he does need the magical girl to turn into witch.
No, the moment in episode 10 when Kyuubey states he's fulfilled his quota also happens to be immediately after he's contracted Madoka. Again, Kyuubey's "your wish has improved the entropy" line to Homura, suggests the possibility that Kyuubey already receives energy from the act of contracting.

You will notice, per some of Kaijo's arguments and going even further than what he's suggested, that Kyuubey in this anime has never shown or indicated that a Mahou Shoujo dying is a bad thing (whether through acting to prevent anyone's death, or expressing disappointment afterwards). By all indications, Kyuubey has never cared if a girl turns into a witch or not. What we have consistently seen Kyuubey doing, though, with all of his manipulative ability, is take advantage of situations to try to get girls to contract in the first place. By all indications of Kyuubey's actual character (as opposed to conclusions people jump to based on assumptions they've made about how certain scenes have to be interpreted), Kyuubey's main goal is not to get Puella Magis to undergo witch transformations.
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Old 2011-04-08, 13:31   Link #1855
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The question is still, how? In what form and through which method does Kyuubey collect that energy?
What pseudo science answer would you like? Truth is, much like the origins of the MG system itself, or even Kyubey's explanations, there are often more questions than answers.

My personal guess as to why he collects Grief Seeds is that it a function that enables him to keep some balance to the system. We know that Seeds will absorb more negative emotion and revive if left alone, so you can't really leave them lying around. On the other hand, Kyubey never says that collecting the Seeds is the reason for becoming a MG. Mami explains that well enough. The Seed is just a reward for fighting Witches because it keeps your Gem clean and your powers refueled/functioning. We know there's more to it now, but only in the sense that we know what happens when the Gem isn't kept clean.

And no, I don't think he actually eats the Seeds. Given the design of his "body", he probably stores them in some sort of spacial pocket away from emotional influence until some future point of necessity.

Kyubey states pretty clearly that he's after the energy release, not the Seed. Perhaps it's better to think of it like other forms of power. You have wood and flint, and it creates fire, but what you're really after is the release of the energy...the heat/kinetic energy. You have the Gem and the Seed, and it creates the wish and the cure, but what you're really after is the release of the energy from those....the heat/kinetic energy.

Does that make more sense?
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Old 2011-04-08, 13:39   Link #1856
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
What pseudo science answer would you like? Truth is, much like the origins of the MG system itself, or even Kyubey's explanations, there are often more questions than answers.

My personal guess as to why he collects Grief Seeds is that it a function that enables him to keep some balance to the system. We know that Seeds will absorb more negative emotion and revive if left alone, so you can't really leave them lying around. On the other hand, Kyubey never says that collecting the Seeds is the reason for becoming a MG. Mami explains that well enough. The Seed is just a reward for fighting Witches because it keeps your Gem clean and your powers refueled/functioning. We know there's more to it now, but only in the sense that we know what happens when the Gem isn't kept clean.

And no, I don't think he actually eats the Seeds. Given the design of his "body", he probably stores them in some sort of spacial pocket away from emotional influence until some future point of necessity.

Kyubey states pretty clearly that he's after the energy release, not the Seed. Perhaps it's better to think of it like other forms of power. You have wood and flint, and it creates fire, but what you're really after is the release of the energy...the heat/kinetic energy. You have the Gem and the Seed, and it creates the wish and the cure, but what you're really after is the release of the energy from those....the heat/kinetic energy.

Does that make more sense?
It makes sense but he clearly wants the Seeds as well, otherwise he would leave them around to regenerate and creage more Magical Girls because more witches = more reasons to get girls to become magical girls.

His goal seems to be the energy release but he went after the Seed in the one scene when it was thrown away. It could possibly be what he uses to regenerate his body (just an idea, no evidense to supposrt this). Or possibly he uses it whenever he grants a miracle wish, he needs a grief seed to do it (again no evidence just an idea).
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Old 2011-04-08, 13:49   Link #1857
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
No, the moment in episode 10 when Kyuubey states he's fulfilled his quota also happens to be immediately after he's contracted Madoka.
No, the nico version shows Madoka is a witch at that moment, giving the name and everything.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Again, Kyuubey's "your wish has improved the entropy" line to Homura, suggests the possibility that Kyuubey already receives energy from the act of contracting.
It's not "improved" but "overcome / transcended". He most likely says that because Homura's wish is going to make her time-travel, which is an act that, by its nature, transcends entropy.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
You will notice, per some of Kaijo's arguments and going even further than what he's suggested, that Kyuubey in this anime has never shown or indicated that a Mahou Shoujo dying is a bad thing (whether through acting to prevent anyone's death, or expressing disappointment afterwards). By all indications, Kyuubey has never cared if a girl turns into a witch or not. What we have consistently seen Kyuubey doing, though, with all of his manipulative ability, is take advantage of situations to try to get girls to contract in the first place. By all indications of Kyuubey's actual character (as opposed to conclusions people jump to based on assumptions they've made about how certain scenes have to be interpreted), Kyuubey's main goal is not to get Puella Magis to undergo witch transformations.
I disagree. I think you're assuming too much. He clearly stated the MG to Witch transformation is essential, it's the very moment when he takes the energy.
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Old 2011-04-08, 13:51   Link #1858
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
What pseudo science answer would you like? Truth is, much like the origins of the MG system itself, or even Kyubey's explanations, there are often more questions than answers.
Well, no. You might be right about that, but what I've been suggesting is that there actually is an explanation in that Kyuubey collects the 'emitted' energy by collecting Grief Seeds.

Quote:
My personal guess as to why he collects Grief Seeds is that it a function that enables him to keep some balance to the system. We know that Seeds will absorb more negative emotion and revive if left alone, so you can't really leave them lying around. On the other hand, Kyubey never says that collecting the Seeds is the reason for becoming a MG. Mami explains that well enough. The Seed is just a reward for fighting Witches because it keeps your Gem clean and your powers refueled/functioning. We know there's more to it now, but only in the sense that we know what happens when the Gem isn't kept clean.

And no, I don't think he actually eats the Seeds. Given the design of his "body", he probably stores them in some sort of spacial pocket away from emotional influence until some future point of necessity.
Here you acknowledge the fact that Grief Seeds actually contain negative emotion i.e. emotional energy. If Kyuubey has got them anyway, why wouldn't he use them as a source of energy somehow?

Quote:
Kyubey states pretty clearly that he's after the energy release, not the Seed. Perhaps it's better to think of it like other forms of power. You have wood and flint, and it creates fire, but what you're really after is the release of the energy...the heat/kinetic energy. You have the Gem and the Seed, and it creates the wish and the cure, but what you're really after is the release of the energy from those....the heat/kinetic energy.

Does that make more sense?
The thing is, in an entropic context, lower entropy (i.e. what Kyuubey is after) is actually the conversion/creation/presence of more potential energy, not kinetic energy. If Kyuubey is actually out to combat entropy via creating kinetic energy, then the little light shows which come out during a witch transformation could barely even qualify to be called useless or pathetic. The little burst of wind which Sayaka generated, as a strict example, probably didn't even contribute a 10 Joule increase in the total potential energy of the universe.

And even then the question still remains, if Kyuubey is supposed to collect that energy, then how can the energy even be said to be 'collected' if it is allowed to disperse as kinetic energy into the surrounding environment. If Kyuubey were actually collecting that energy, then technically we shouldn't even be seeing an explosion at all.

edit:

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
No, the nico version shows Madoka is a witch at that moment, giving the name and everything.
That doesn't change the fact that it still would have been a matter of minutes from the moment that Madoka contracted. The first thing that Kyuubey says is about Madoka becoming a magical girl. There's no reason Kyuubey has to be talking about Madoka's witch transformation at all.

Quote:
It's not "improved" but "overcome / transcended". He most likely says that because Homura's wish is going to make her time-travel, which is an act that, by its nature, transcends entropy.
As Akashin mentioned, this is something which is true for all wishes. Nothing to do with time travel.
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-04-08 at 14:02.
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Old 2011-04-08, 13:51   Link #1859
Akashin
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Originally Posted by Angelmonster View Post
It makes sense but he clearly wants the Seeds as well, otherwise he would leave them around to regenerate and creage more Magical Girls because more witches = more reasons to get girls to become magical girls.

His goal seems to be the energy release but he went after the Seed in the one scene when it was thrown away. It could possibly be what he uses to regenerate his body (just an idea, no evidense to supposrt this). Or possibly he uses it whenever he grants a miracle wish, he needs a grief seed to do it (again no evidence just an idea).
I thought that a plausible idea was that he incubates (see what I did there?) Grief Seeds as a possible backup supply of sorts in case the Witch population runs too low. My evidence mostly came from the semi-hint that he may have placed Charlotte's Grief Seed at the hospital in episode 3, but the strange close-up we got of his face at that moment could mean a thousand different things. All the same, this was really the only supported argument I could come up with.
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Old 2011-04-08, 14:24   Link #1860
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As Akashin mentioned, this is something which is true for all wishes. Nothing to do with time travel.
See what I mean with "assuming too much"?? QB never told anything like that to any of the other girls. It's Homura's wish, specifically, what he says can overcome (not improve) entropy, which it does because it's time-travel.

Other than that, it's the energy released when a magical girl becomes a witch what he stated he uses to combat the entropy of the universe.

You want to think this two statements are related, but there's nothing pointing that way. It's just a baseless assumption.
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