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Old 2011-04-09, 09:26   Link #1881
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
In essence, this is still true. Kyubey makes young teenage girls suffer for the happiness and prosperity of the rest of the universe. Thereby, the universe's emotions remain balanced. Few girls suffer a lot, while everyone else is just a little bit happier.
Of course, "suffer" is relative. It is still possible for girls to be happy, as we have been shown it is entirely up to them. Kyoko was, and Mami as well, to a certain degree. Sayaka also until she had her breakdown.

But as far as Sayaka's suffering is concerned, I can see it as a strategic move, too. In my alternate explanation, Kyube wouldn't help her because her turning into a witch would mean greater suffering and negative energy. Thus, by the laws of nature, there would have to be a great positive swingback, and he knows Walpurgis is coming, another great negative. Ensuring Sayaka's suffering now, would better set up the destruction of Walpurgis.

The difference you suggest notes Madoka and company feel very little happiness. Their sadness is clearly far greater than their happiness.

Quote:
However, when you get technologically advanced races like Kyubey involved, the scales start tipping. Heat death of the universe is, metaphorically speaking, complete energy balance. As the Wikipedia article on heat death states, "If the universe lasts for a sufficient time, it will asymptotically approach a state where all energy is evenly distributed." Kyubey is working against entropy, the natural balancing process of the universe. His method is to exploit the human race, which can defy entropy with emotional energy.
Yeah, but the problem is, we don't know if the universe has boundaries. We do know that, according to the Big Bang theory, everything in the universe is moving away from a certain point, and thus away from each other. Considering the vastness of space, energy won't just be evenly distributed, but each speck of energy will be moving farther and farther away, so it becomes more difficult to collect (and thus why a Dyson sphere is for an advanced race is such a great thing; it can fully capture the entire output of a star depending on how it is built).

So he's not working against balance, as whether there is "1000 units of energy" normally or 2000 thanks to Kyube, it'll still get spread out while everything is continually moving away from each other. Balance doesn't refer to how much energy can be in the system, just that it is evenly distributed.

Heh, I will say this; even if a series is flawed, it can still generate some interesting discussions.
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Old 2011-04-09, 09:58   Link #1882
Kazu-kun
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Sigh, a bit tired of speculah here. Let's see some real spoilers for a change. Translation from some guy at evageeks.org.

Spoiler for lots of spoilers:
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Old 2011-04-09, 10:08   Link #1883
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Reaction to what Kazu-kun just wrote:

Spoiler for Reaction to Kazu-kun spoilers:
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Old 2011-04-09, 10:11   Link #1884
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler for about Sayaka:
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Old 2011-04-09, 10:14   Link #1885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Spoiler for about Sayaka:
Spoiler for about Sayaka:
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Old 2011-04-09, 10:25   Link #1886
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I lol'd at the Monster Hunter part. Nice one.
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Old 2011-04-09, 10:31   Link #1887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Spoiler for about Sayaka:
I see. I kinda like the grimmer interpretation better though, but I'm twisted like that.
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Old 2011-04-09, 10:47   Link #1888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Sigh, a bit tired of speculah here. Let's see some real spoilers for a change. Translation from some guy at evageeks.org.

Spoiler for lots of spoilers:
Spoiler for Homura's power:
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Old 2011-04-09, 11:01   Link #1889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThereminVox View Post
Spoiler for Homura's power:
Spoiler for about Homura:
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Old 2011-04-09, 11:52   Link #1890
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
These are some very interesting points you two are making, with regards to how Kyuubey represents in some ways an outlier and disrupter to the show's theme of universal balance. Both in terms of the unbalanced 'free lunch' he is getting out of the girls' suffering, and in terms of his goals of escaping entropy, you guys are correct in pointing out Kyuubey's position as being uniquely incongruent in terms of the greater morals of this story.

In this case, if we can posit the 'natural' balance as indeed the absolute moral behind this story, may I suggest the idea that this is perhaps precisely why Kyuubey is the villain? Although at this time we can see Kyuubey as being uniquely successful in doing so, isn't it in fact true however that the desire to get 'something for nothing', a 'free lunch' or 'more than you paid for' is something which is inherently part of all humans? Indeed, while Kyuubey might be trying to achieve something which is against the true course of nature, that ambition can also be said to be reflected in each of the wishes these girls have traded their souls for.

In this case, by sympathizing with these characters who have been harmed by Kyuubey's self-interest, perhaps the role of Kyuubey who succeeds in that act is precisely to make us reflect on the cost inherent in our own actions. Victims of Kyuubey's quest to deny nature, we come to understand the pain that would be caused by seeking to deny nature ourselves. In this way, Kyuubey as the antithetical alien interloper becomes ultimately only a mirror to our own humanity. Kyuubey, by striving to escape the cost and reward, gain and sacrifice nature of our reality, finally only proves how he is chained to it in how he becomes directly involved in our human suffering.

(lol, okay, I don't even know what I really want to say here so that will be the end of my random rambling.)
What a wonderful analysis. If the story has a moral, I think this is it, in just so many words as you used. It was worth joining the conversation here just to read this post.
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Old 2011-04-09, 14:43   Link #1891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
While I get what you're saying, what makes you think it has to be either/or?

Before we got this explanation (and during the confusion before the ep was properly translated), it was one theory that Kyube was balancing good and evil. The lines from the characters prior to that point, such as Kyoko, began to suggest that happiness and sadness must be balanced. If you have a great joy, it must be balanced by a great sorrow. Kyoko keeping her joys small and to herself, meant that any corresponding sorrows would be similarly small; thus her worldview was a valid one.

If I were writing this, that would have been the route I would have gone. For those that are familiar with him, it could also be called the Galactus route. Kyube neither good nor evil, his very existence and what he does necessary to the fabric of the universe, however.

After just a little thinking, here's my current idea, although it would probably need some refinement:
Spoiler for Alternative to Entropy:


In my opinion, entropy and thermodynamics just make this thing messy. If PMMM is gonna go the deconstruction route, this might be better. Most MG's in other shows fight for truth and justice and love; it would be a nice twist to find out while they do that, it is only to help maintain a balance, and just the darker side has to be equally accounted for. They have to die for anger, hate, etc. as well.

It would also fit more nicely into what Kyoko was talking about, and mesh better with the theme of the show up until that point.
I have to say Kaijo I like your example of a balance a lot better. However it makes Kyuube sound a little like the anti-spiral without all the genocide...
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Old 2011-04-09, 15:18   Link #1892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
Spoiler for about Homura:
He was talking about the exact technical details of how Homura is able to travel through time. He must have thought of what would happen to her powers once she actually succeeded since that's the entire point of the series.
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Old 2011-04-09, 15:38   Link #1893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
He was talking about the exact technical details of how Homura is able to travel through time. He must have thought of what would happen to her powers once she actually succeeded since that's the entire point of the series.

Maybe not. I mean, Homura could succeed by sacrificing her life, so there wouldn't be any need to think what would happen with her powers after that.

I suppose we'll have to wait and see what happens.
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Old 2011-04-09, 16:08   Link #1894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
He was talking about the exact technical details of how Homura is able to travel through time. He must have thought of what would happen to her powers once she actually succeeded since that's the entire point of the series.
Ah, so you're right; I misread that and thought he said he hadn't thought the entire thing through thoroughly. Doesn't change the fact that it's still an interesting question, but like Kazu-kun said, we'll have to wait and see since I can't really see a simple answer anywhere.
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Old 2011-04-09, 17:43   Link #1895
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If she succeeds, and lives, why would anything further need to happen? Mami wished to be saved, she was, and that was that. Sayaka wished for Kamijou to be healed, he was, and that was that. I don't see why any deep thought is needed for "if she succeeds", since it would merely mean the contract was fulfilled.

A better speculation would be about what would happen if she turned into a witch. Would the lack of being the one to protect Madoka trigger a time lapse? If so, does she go back as a witch or MG? If she dies without being able to protect Madoka, does that trigger a time lapse? Etc. Kyoko's wish is the only other one that's a continuous wish rather than a one-time trigger, but it doesn't really compare to Homura's wish in execution.
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Old 2011-04-09, 17:44   Link #1896
Deconstructor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
But as far as Sayaka's suffering is concerned, I can see it as a strategic move, too. In my alternate explanation, Kyube wouldn't help her because her turning into a witch would mean greater suffering and negative energy. Thus, by the laws of nature, there would have to be a great positive swingback, and he knows Walpurgis is coming, another great negative. Ensuring Sayaka's suffering now, would better set up the destruction of Walpurgis.
Perhaps... Kyubey outright said Kyoko's death (a direct result of Sayaka turning into a witch) leaves Homura unable to defend against Walpurgi's Night. Therefore, Madoka will be forced to contract with Kyubey, in order to save Homura. All according to plan.

However, you assume Kyubey foresaw Sayaka's wish backfiring within the short time frame of a few days. Given this assumption, we should also assume Kyubey foresaw Kyoko committing suicide to kill witch Sayaka. Kyubey may be technologically advanced, but I am unconvinced Kyubey can see the future. At least for now.

Quote:
So he's not working against balance, as whether there is "1000 units of energy" normally or 2000 thanks to Kyube, it'll still get spread out while everything is continually moving away from each other. Balance doesn't refer to how much energy can be in the system, just that it is evenly distributed.
Sure. But those 1000 units of energy could be useless, while the additional 1000 Kyubey gets from Madoka can serve useful purposes. Introducing energy would cause the entire system to be unbalanced, just like a drop of water will create ripples in a pond. The ripples dissipate and balance out only if the water stops dripping.

In physics terms, imagine shooting one particle into a box of motionless particles. The moving particle collides with others, and those others collide with others. The end result is a bunch of moving particles. Over time, energy will be lost to friction and air resistance, but you can keep the entire group of particles moving if you keep firing more particles into the box.

Quote:
Heh, I will say this; even if a series is flawed, it can still generate some interesting discussions.
All things are flawed... the only difference is whether you cover up those flaws by claiming magic, or choose to go a really long way to make the flaws seem unflawed by most human standards...
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Old 2011-04-09, 17:54   Link #1897
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
If she succeeds, and lives, why would anything further need to happen? Mami wished to be saved, she was, and that was that. Sayaka wished for Kamijou to be healed, he was, and that was that. I don't see why any deep thought is needed for "if she succeeds", since it would merely mean the contract was fulfilled.
Did you read the spoilers I posted?? Read that, and then read ThereminVox and Akashin posts. You'll understand their concern about Homura's powers outside the loop's time period.
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Old 2011-04-09, 18:06   Link #1898
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Ah, okay. I see the implication now. Eh, still don't think it's anything to really worry about other than whether she can still stop time afterward. It seems like she can trigger the ability herself once it's "recharged", so that answered a few questions.
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Old 2011-04-09, 21:11   Link #1899
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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Given this assumption, we should also assume Kyubey foresaw Kyoko committing suicide to kill witch Sayaka. Kyubey may be technologically advanced, but I am unconvinced Kyubey can see the future. At least for now.
Kyubei doesn't need to see the future for this. Given what he wants, Kyoko out of the picture for Walpurgis Night, and what Kyoko doesn't want, killing Sayaka, he should have enough experience to forsee what's going to happen next:
Kyoko won't go all out against Sayaka-witch. Doesn't matter if Madoka's with her or not, if she suicides or not, if Homura intervenes at the end or not. This alone will result in removing her from the picture for Walpurgis Night, either through disablement or outright death.
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Old 2011-04-10, 07:08   Link #1900
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Now we know what Homura's power is, I can see the ending!

Spoiler for Speculah:


Things to keep in mind:
- Series director was glad that Kyuubey remained Kyuubey at the end of the story.
- Homura told Kyoko she'd be gone after Walpurgisnacht
- Staff says that the ending is happy but not everyone will see it that way.
- Urobuchi saying that he didn't think about how exactly Homura's time travel works. He's lying and it's going to be very important in the end.
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