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Old 2011-02-26, 09:41   Link #181
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Theory 3= You can't fight Fate + looping ( Screw destiny , there is a happy ending somewhere)
Of course, it is highly possible that both version is correct for maximum drama. Assume that there is some sort of you can't fight fate effect happening which is why Homura even in the number of reiterations she's been doing is not able to find the good end. ^^
I'm betting for this. Thematically speaking it fits too, also I don't want to get on that just yet. Anyway, last night I couldn't sleep, I couldn't stop thinking about Madoka, and trying to apply everything I'm learning about script writing in college, and my conclusion is that "Screw destiny , there is a happy ending somewhere" is the most likely outcome for this series.

Anyway, let's wait and see. On the mean time, I will be posting a complete analysis about the series and how I think the climax is going to play out when I have some time today.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-02-26 at 14:07.
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Old 2011-02-26, 13:27   Link #182
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@night_sentinel - Your theory 2 reminds me alot of Rika fighting fate in Higurashi no naku koro Kai.
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Old 2011-02-26, 16:07   Link #183
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I'm betting for this. Thematically speaking it fits too, also I don't want to get on that just yet. Anyway, last night I couldn't sleep, I couldn't stop thinking about Madoka, and trying to apply everything I'm learning about script writing in college, and my conclusion is that "Screw destiny , there is a happy ending somewhere" is the most likely outcome for this series.
Ha! I think Gen Urobuchi has proven himself willing to defy every convention of magical girl anime - one of which is a happy ending for all. However, I do not think Urobuchi is going to end the anime with the apocalypse, either. My instincts tell me that the ending will be mostly pleasant with the aftertaste of everyone who died (Mami, Sayaka, and those to come).
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Old 2011-02-26, 16:38   Link #184
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I generally don't buy the looping theory, unless it is a VR simulation (per my speculation thread theory).

But I do have to ask: Where is the Homura of this timeline? I'd lay odds Future-Homura either killed her, or has her locked up. Only Madoka matters, and everything is done towards that goal, so I'd be a bit worried.

And if Madoka created the system, and sacrifices herself to stop it, then Homura trying to prevent Madoka from sacrificing herself would be trying to keep the system going. Homura thinks this sacrifice has to do with becoming a magical girl. In this light, it would cast Homura in the antagonistic role.
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Old 2011-02-26, 16:44   Link #185
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I generally don't buy the looping theory, unless it is a VR simulation (per my speculation thread theory).

But I do have to ask: Where is the Homura of this timeline? I'd lay odds Future-Homura either killed her, or has her locked up. Only Madoka matters, and everything is done towards that goal, so I'd be a bit worried.

And if Madoka created the system, and sacrifices herself to stop it, then Homura trying to prevent Madoka from sacrificing herself would be trying to keep the system going. Homura thinks this sacrifice has to do with becoming a magical girl. In this light, it would cast Homura in the antagonistic role.
Honestly there is the possibility that her jumping to the past caused the world to somewhat correct for paradox and she either combined with her past self, her past self disappeared or she never existed in this past to begin with. We know she came from an alternate future. Maybe the Homura in this timeline was never born, maybe she didn't move to this city or maybe any kind of other possibilities when you get into time travel.
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Old 2011-02-26, 22:13   Link #186
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I think I'm replying to various posts in one to conserve space...


@ Hooves

Yup... I've gotten inspiration from Higurashi and endless eight.... as well as some posts in this site... I can't just remember which ones though... this is what I get from reading too many posts in an attempt to catch up and I'm still catching up in the episode thread... sigh


@ Kazu-kun and Deconstructor

I also think thematically theory 3 = time loop + You can't fight fate effect is probably what is happening here. But, I'm still partially on denial on it... Though, its pretty logical and will put a likely explanation on a huge plot hole (always a nice benefit) ... it is also simultaneously the best case scenario and worst case scenario for this particular anime.

If you think about it especially for Homura, theory 3 is the worst kind of scenario for her. For one, it meant that her past is really, really bad... if this current timeline is a representative of the previous time lines. In fact, since Homura is messing with the time line and most likely doing it for Madoka's benefit the current time line is probably better . And if theory 3 is true, it meant multiple bad ends for Homura ... 3 at the very least

And theory 3 is not a happy ending not by a long shot. Screw destiny, there is a happy ending somewhere is Homura's take on it not, not there is actually a happy ending and if there is what guarantee that it would be this current timeline? The last episode can be a bad end and just a beginning of another loop for Homura... which has a higher chance of happening more than I like.

I've also said that it is a best case scenario since with the looping possibility ... another loop meant that Mami can be revived or not just die, Sayaka would not turn to a witch, but guess what? This possibility also meant that the ending in this season must be a bad end to justify Homura going back again to the past to try again.

Though, it is bit of a hope spot since it meant Homura cynical as she is thinks that there is some chance of breaking fate or it meant that Homura is just going through the motions now. She knows that it is impossible but, she can't seem to let go of her hope... or since its likely Madoka is her hope ... she can't give up on Madoka?

@ Xacual
I also think that Homura might have erased her past self or overwritten her going by the loop theory. But we must remember that this is only on the Homura=Homura theory.

I think I've made a post exploring Homura's origin and yes I found out that Homura can be anyone of the main characters. side characters except Kamijou and perhaps her dad. Yes, Homura can even be future! Kyuubey and there is a popular theory that Homura is a cat or even Madoka's mother...


@ Kaijo

Kaijo I would really like to know the VN theory of yours? sounds interesting... Unfortunately, I'm still wading through the threads and can't find it ... mind giving me a link?

Oh I also don't subscribe to the looping theory usually, but there is a ridiculous amount of evidence for it this time. I've said before there are at least 3 timelines for Homura at the very least.

1. The timeline where Homura get's her power. ( It is related to time). Or where some other character becomes Homura and travels back.
2 - ? The timeline where Madoka resets the world or Homura hax goes back in time again since unable to stop Madoka's fate. We must remember that Homura in dream version already has time powers, she's already a magical girl meaning her wish is already granted. Thus, dream version is already at the least is Homura's second try. It can easily be her third or tenth? or any higher number?
( I'm inclined that dream is past reiteration making it known to Madoka . This would also explain Madoka's power, she's contracted several times already perhaps it stacks? )

?. The current season wherein Homura due to multiple time line knows almost everything and seems to be just going through the motions.

Or if dream on ep 1 is going to happen again or a premonition . Sigh .., it either meant that this timeline is doomed, since ep 1 ( premonition) whatever Homura does cannot stop Madoka from contracting or saving anyone since no one is there by the end ... or by looping theory, no matter how many loops Homura does, the ending remains the same.

<realizing various implications.... darn .... darn .... darn >

Last edited by night_sentinel; 2011-02-26 at 22:29.
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Old 2011-02-26, 22:19   Link #187
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Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
[B]
Kaijo I would really like to know the VN theory of yours? sounds interesting... Unfortunately, I'm still wading through the threads and can't find it ... mind giving me a link?
Here !
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...91#post3507191
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Old 2011-02-27, 00:01   Link #188
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Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post

I also think thematically theory 3 = time loop + You can't fight fate effect is probably what is happening here. But, I'm still partially on denial on it... Though, its pretty logical and will put a likely explanation on a huge plot hole (always a nice benefit) ... it is also simultaneously the best case scenario and worst case scenario for this particular anime.

If you think about it especially for Homura, theory 3 is the worst kind of scenario for her. For one, it meant that her past is really, really bad... if this current timeline is a representative of the previous time lines. In fact, since Homura is messing with the time line and most likely doing it for Madoka's benefit the current time line is probably better . And if theory 3 is true, it meant multiple bad ends for Homura ... 3 at the very least

And theory 3 is not a happy ending not by a long shot. Screw destiny, there is a happy ending somewhere is Homura's take on it not, not there is actually a happy ending and if there is what guarantee that it would be this current timeline? The last episode can be a bad end and just a beginning of another loop for Homura... which has a higher chance of happening more than I like.
This is where we disagree. You see, Homura isn't the protagonist, therefore is really convenient for the plot that she CAN'T save Madoka from her "fate". Madoka is the protagonist, and so she has to save herself. That, IMO, is where this series is really going...

The path is how you already described it: multiple time lines, multiple loops, and eventually multiples failures... for Homura. This time WON'T be different, Homura won't be able to save Madoka, again. The difference is that this time, I'm betting, Madoka would be able to save herself. That's why the series deals with this time loop, because this is the one when Madoka finally fulfils her role as protagonist and final change her fate on her own.

This is why I said it makes sense thematically. Madoka's main flaw as a character is her inferiority complex (she sees herself as worthless). This theme was introduced in episode 3, and it isn't surprising at all that episode 8 dealt with it again:

Madoka: "I thought I had nothing good going for me. I thought I would continue on living until I died, never helping anyone, never being useful. This made me frustrated, and it made me feel alone. But I thought I couldn't do anything about it."

Madoka's character development means to overcome this flaw. Not surprising, her salvation depends on this too. Now, both Kyubey and Homura offers solutions to her problem:

Kyubey: make a contract with me and become a God. You'll be able to do anything.

Homura: realize you're not worthless. Many people love you because you're a wonderful person. You just don't value yourself enough.

Kyubey's "solution" is the instant fix, the easy way out, which would obviously lead to her doom. Now Homura clearly knows Madoka's self-steam issues and her words are full of truth and love, but she herself can not save Madoka. Nevertheless, if Madoka manage to understand Homura and herself better in the four episodes left she may be able to overcome her issues and develop as a character. I expect that would unlock her "memories" of Homura, which in turn would give her the key to solve this whole mess with Kyubey/Incubator and save herself from her supposed fate.

Like I said, thematically it fits rather too well, better then I expected really. Anyway, let's wait and see how the whole thing plays out.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-02-27 at 01:23.
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Old 2011-02-27, 00:59   Link #189
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i seek light at the end of the tunnel.. this show might have 2 alternate ends.. the last BD might have it..DX

i feel so bad for homura..DX
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Old 2011-02-27, 16:34   Link #190
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First, I am sorry if it's been mentioned already. I searched the forum, but couldn't find similar discussion.

Sometime ago I read elsewhere that Akemi Homura's name comes from "Alchemy Homunculus". As for "Alchemy Homunculus", please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus. Initially I hadn't paid much attention to that theory, but after the real meaning of Kubey's name was revealed it looks plausible.
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Old 2011-02-27, 16:47   Link #191
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I'm starting to think Homura didn't really go back in time.

She wished for Madoka and her to never met in the first place (or to erase that moment, thus acting on "time" itself and driving her power to the time manipulation route)
Madoka didn't make a wish / transform into a MS / whatever.
All that happened was erased.

Homura finds herself in an alternate timeline back at the moment she first met Madoka with her power and memories. She then avoid to talk to her, changing the present but still knowing what is Q-B, what he's up to, etc. Without having properly met Q-B (that's why he don't know who she is) to make a wish, she become an "anomaly" in the system.

You could have 3 reasons why Madoka got some static about Homura and her knowing ach other :
1) Because Homura is an anomaly
2) Because she wants Madoka to remember
3) Because Madoka is way too powerful to be bend by a wish totally,

Pick one. So the "system" tends to reject her and her wish is weakened, maybe each time Madoka is about to do something who could restore the original timeline.

Who the hell are you, Homerun ?!!
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Old 2011-02-27, 16:56   Link #192
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Originally Posted by Sageblink View Post
I'm starting to think Homura didn't really go back in time.

She wished for Madoka and her to never met in the first place (or to erase that moment, thus acting on "time" itself and driving her power to the time manipulation route)
Madoka didn't make a wish / transform into a MS / whatever.
All that happened was erased.

Homura finds herself in an alternate timeline back at the moment she first met Madoka with her power and memories. She then avoid to talk to her, changing the present but still knowing what is Q-B, what he's up to, etc. Without having properly met Q-B (that's why he don't know who she is) to make a wish, she become an "anomaly" in the system.

You could have 3 reasons why Madoka got some static about Homura and her knowing ach other :
1) Because Homura is an anomaly
2) Because she wants Madoka to remember
3) Because Madoka is way too powerful to be bend by a wish totally,

Pick one. So the "system" tends to reject her and her wish is weakened, maybe each time Madoka is about to do something who could restore the original timeline.

Who the hell are you, Homerun ?!!
I don't really think Homura is from the future either. Madoka having memories of her is a pretty strong hint that Homura was always here but nobody remembers.

Normally, I'd try to speculate a bit more about Homura's hesitation in telling Madoka just what their relationship was, but Homura's always been kind vague and awkward so it's hard to say.

And I really hope it doesn't end similarly to Higurashi, just because it's something so well known in the anime community. A single reset is more than enough. Telling us Homura has been doing this hundreds of times even though she keeps screwing up and missing small details don't make much sense either.
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Old 2011-02-27, 17:01   Link #193
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Originally Posted by Sageblink View Post
She wished for Madoka and her to never met in the first place (or to erase that moment, thus acting on "time" itself and driving her power to the time manipulation route)
Madoka didn't make a wish / transform into a MS / whatever.
All that happened was erased.
Since Homura currently knows Incubator true identity and master plan, then we have to assume she already witnessed Incubator succeeding, including what he has planed for Madoka....

With that in mind, why would Incubator grant Homura's wish afterwords? He's clever enough to know erasing the moment Homura and Madoka met would also negate the master plan he already accomplished. He would never grant Homura that wish....

I think there's still a lot about Homura and Incubator itself that we still don't know.
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Old 2011-02-28, 05:31   Link #194
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But I do have to ask: Where is the Homura of this timeline? I'd lay odds Future-Homura either killed her, or has her locked up. Only Madoka matters, and everything is done towards that goal, so I'd be a bit worried.
It could simply be that the transfer girl pretext was true. The Homura of this timeline is off living her life in some other city/school. Perhaps her meeting Madoka was supposed to happen later on (and perhaps won't even happen now that events have been changed some).
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Old 2011-02-28, 07:32   Link #195
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Originally Posted by kamyu View Post
It could simply be that the transfer girl pretext was true. The Homura of this timeline is off living her life in some other city/school. Perhaps her meeting Madoka was supposed to happen later on (and perhaps won't even happen now that events have been changed some).
Yeah the lack of a present time Homura in the series so far isn't a critical flaw to the theory. Entirely possible that Homura herself helped nudge things so her other self wouldn't meet Madoka and make interfering complicated. Plus always have the crazy theory that she is a part of the cast just looking different or the Homura of this timeline could be dead for some reason.
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Old 2011-02-28, 12:55   Link #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamyu View Post
It could simply be that the transfer girl pretext was true. The Homura of this timeline is off living her life in some other city/school. Perhaps her meeting Madoka was supposed to happen later on (and perhaps won't even happen now that events have been changed some).
Well, considering that Homura meeting Madoka for the first time was a pivotal moment, and that it happened before Walpurgis night... Remember, the original Homura needs to meet Madoka and grow to admire and care about her, otherwise she wouldn't be so obsessed with going back in time to save her the first time.

So the original Homura would have had to have known Madoka for quite some time, making us wonder exactly how far back in time Homura went.
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Old 2011-02-28, 13:01   Link #197
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A recent magazine article as reviled some interesting info it would seem Homura isn't as all powerful as we all are lead to believe.


Q: Compare to Sayaka and Kyouko, what kind of magical girl Homura is?

A: Homura is relatively weak in terms of being a magical girl, almost no better than ordinary girl. Although she may be stronger than normal human after transforming, but she is still much weaker than most of magical girls. In order to make up her insufficient talent, she adapts "skills." For example in Ep8 she was restrained by Kyouko, which tells you she's not a teleporter. And in Ep6 you saw she had to keep running cause she could only stop time for a very short time. You can see her ability is actually very limited.
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Old 2011-02-28, 13:51   Link #198
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Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
A recent magazine article as reviled some interesting info it would seem Homura isn't as all powerful as we all are lead to believe.


Q: Compare to Sayaka and Kyouko, what kind of magical girl Homura is?

A: Homura is relatively weak in terms of being a magical girl, almost no better than ordinary girl. Although she may be stronger than normal human after transforming, but she is still much weaker than most of magical girls. In order to make up her insufficient talent, she adapts "skills." For example in Ep8 she was restrained by Kyouko, which tells you she's not a teleporter. And in Ep6 you saw she had to keep running cause she could only stop time for a very short time. You can see her ability is actually very limited.
source please
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Old 2011-02-28, 14:07   Link #199
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Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
A recent magazine article as reviled some interesting info it would seem Homura isn't as all powerful as we all are lead to believe.


Q: Compare to Sayaka and Kyouko, what kind of magical girl Homura is?

A: Homura is relatively weak in terms of being a magical girl, almost no better than ordinary girl. Although she may be stronger than normal human after transforming, but she is still much weaker than most of magical girls. In order to make up her insufficient talent, she adapts "skills." For example in Ep8 she was restrained by Kyouko, which tells you she's not a teleporter. And in Ep6 you saw she had to keep running cause she could only stop time for a very short time. You can see her ability is actually very limited.
When you're an Archer, being Weak But Skilled comes with the territory.
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Old 2011-02-28, 14:27   Link #200
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
A recent magazine article as reviled some interesting info it would seem Homura isn't as all powerful as we all are lead to believe.


Q: Compare to Sayaka and Kyouko, what kind of magical girl Homura is?

A: Homura is relatively weak in terms of being a magical girl, almost no better than ordinary girl. Although she may be stronger than normal human after transforming, but she is still much weaker than most of magical girls. In order to make up her insufficient talent, she adapts "skills." For example in Ep8 she was restrained by Kyouko, which tells you she's not a teleporter. And in Ep6 you saw she had to keep running cause she could only stop time for a very short time. You can see her ability is actually very limited.
Source? Without source I wouldn't take what you see on /a/ too seriously IMO.
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