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Old 2011-03-17, 00:26   Link #281
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
You guys aren't getting what I'm trying to say.

If Homura intentionally let Sayaka become a Magical Girl this time around and was trying to make it look like an accident, that makes sense. I don't hold it against her since it's for the greater good. She'll never defeat the system if she can't say "Kyubey is manipulating you and here's DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE to prove it." Trying to explain things without proof won't work (Timeline 3). Never trying to say anything also won't work (Timeline 4).

If Sayaka becoming a Magical Girl again really was an accident, then uh... Homura is extremely lucky, I guess. Whether she realizes it or not, she needs Sayaka to become a Witch so she'll have an actual case when she goes "BLAAARG DON'T LISTEN TO KYUBEY."

To truly protect Madoka, she needs Madoka to be totally discouraged from ever becoming a Magical Girl. She'll never realistically meet these conditions without using the Sayaka scenario as her argument. Sayaka becoming a Witch is anything BUT counterproductive.

It IS counterproductive, because Homura's intention to recruit Kyoko to fight on Walpurgusnacht is much clearer than her possible intention to make Sayaka a bad example for Madoka to avoid. Sayaka becoming a Witch led to Kyoko abandoning the alliance she made with Homura so that Kyoko may attempt to save Sayaka. Why would Homura sacrifice the only other Puella Magi who could help her win on Walpurgisnacht to an already fallen Puella Magi, just to teach Madoka a lesson? Discouraging Madoka is pointless if she has no other choice but to help Homura. Why would Homura plan to make herself the only girl left along with Madoka on Walpurgisnacht and repeat the previous timeline?
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Old 2011-03-17, 01:11   Link #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Why would Homura sacrifice the only other Puella Magi who could help her win on Walpurgisnacht to an already fallen Puella Magi, just to teach Madoka a lesson?
Because that's not the biggest problem.

As long as there's a world harvest, Kyubey will stick around and continue to seduce girls after Walpurgisnacht. Homura knows this. The only reason she's a Magical Girl herself is because of this.

This is a very, very bad thing to Homura's immediate wish. As long as Kyubey can do his thing, Madoka (and, in effect, the entire planet Earth) is in constant danger regardless of who survives Walpurgisnacht.

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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Why would Homura plan to make herself the only girl left along with Madoka on Walpurgisnacht and repeat the previous timeline?
I already said, she may have screwed up in Kyoko's case. She only allowed Kyoko to blow herself up probably because she thought yanking Kyoko out against her will would make her hysterical and just create another Witch. Given how close Kyoko had grown to Sayaka in this timeline, living with the guilt of abandoning Sayaka wouldn't have helped her Soul Gem much.

And, in Timeline 4, that version of Madoka had no idea Kyubey was lying to her during the Walpurgis battle. Sayaka's death has made it so that can't happen this time.

Last edited by Hagoshod; 2011-03-17 at 01:24.
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Old 2011-03-17, 01:34   Link #283
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Firstly, I do not think Homura planned for Sayaka to transform into a witch. Homura was intent on killing Sayaka for not accepting the Grief Seed - Homura's actions suggest she did not want Sayaka to turn into a witch.

That said, I do not think it would be difficult for Homura to stop time and kill Sayaka. Writer's inconsistency aside, evidence suggests that Homura did not want to kill Sayaka. Homura stated that Madoka would be grieved over Sayaka's death - Homura wanted to avoid having to resort to murder. Kyoko's interference allowed Sayaka to escape. But I wonder... could Homura not have simply stopped time and chased after Sayaka? Perhaps the distance between the two was far enough (Sayaka boarded a train) and Homura had to use her power saving Madoka from Kyubey's temptation. These two thoughts lead me to conclude that Homura was unable to kill Sayaka. Now, would Homura have killed Sayaka, given the chance? I think so.

Homura foresaw that Sayaka would turn into a witch. While it may deter Madoka further from becoming a Puella Magi, I do not think that is what Homura was thinking about. Homura seemed more concerned about the possible emotional trauma Sayaka's death and/or witchification would have brought upon Madoka. That is why Homura offered up a free Grief Seed.
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Old 2011-03-17, 06:34   Link #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
Because that's not the biggest problem.

As long as there's a world harvest, Kyubey will stick around and continue to seduce girls after Walpurgisnacht. Homura knows this. The only reason she's a Magical Girl herself is because of this.

This is a very, very bad thing to Homura's immediate wish. As long as Kyubey can do his thing, Madoka (and, in effect, the entire planet Earth) is in constant danger regardless of who survives Walpurgisnacht.
That being the case, Madoka not falling would still do little in the end.
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Old 2011-03-17, 08:26   Link #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Firstly, I do not think Homura planned for Sayaka to transform into a witch. Homura was intent on killing Sayaka for not accepting the Grief Seed - Homura's actions suggest she did not want Sayaka to turn into a witch.

That said, I do not think it would be difficult for Homura to stop time and kill Sayaka. Writer's inconsistency aside, evidence suggests that Homura did not want to kill Sayaka. Homura stated that Madoka would be grieved over Sayaka's death - Homura wanted to avoid having to resort to murder. Kyoko's interference allowed Sayaka to escape. But I wonder... could Homura not have simply stopped time and chased after Sayaka? Perhaps the distance between the two was far enough (Sayaka boarded a train) and Homura had to use her power saving Madoka from Kyubey's temptation. These two thoughts lead me to conclude that Homura was unable to kill Sayaka. Now, would Homura have killed Sayaka, given the chance? I think so.

Homura foresaw that Sayaka would turn into a witch. While it may deter Madoka further from becoming a Puella Magi, I do not think that is what Homura was thinking about. Homura seemed more concerned about the possible emotional trauma Sayaka's death and/or witchification would have brought upon Madoka. That is why Homura offered up a free Grief Seed.
I agree with this.

Furthermore, Homura's strategy in Timeline 5 has been very consistent:

Plan A: Make cryptic ominous warnings about the magical girl world to Madoka.

Plan B: Keep Madoka in the dark about the specifics of that world as much as possible, in order to lessen any motivation she has to get involved.

Plan C: During instances where things go badly, try to make the best out of them by using them as object lessons to scare Madoka into not becoming a magical girl.


Plan C only comes into effect if Plans A and B seem to be failing.
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Old 2011-03-17, 09:11   Link #286
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I'm not really sure that Homura was going to kill Sayaka. I think she was trying to use reverse psychology, by scaring her into taking the seed for Madoka's sake. Sayaka was basically throwing her life away knowingly by not taking the Seed and pushing Homura away, so I think Homura was trying to pull a "scared straight" act to shake her out of it.

If you think about it this way, Kyouko might have sealed Sayaka's fate by stopping Homura when she did, letting Sayaka escape which bought time for her to collect more grief.

We do know a few things from episode 10 to speculate why Homura didn't "catch" Sayaka in time this loop.

1. Sayaka wasn't a MG in every loop. Homura had no way to predict her becoming one for sure this time, especially with Mami dying so early (another event she appeared to not expect).
2. The circumstances of her becoming a Witch were different in the previous loop. This is reflected in how different her lair and familiars look.

So Homura knew that Sayaka probably wouldn't last long as a MG (based on a prior loop), but couldn't predict the events that would enable it. Homura seems to lament this a bit, by commenting that she should have kept a better eye on Sayaka AND Madoka.

This is why my speculation in the episode 10 about what Homura has to focus on to fulfill her wish seems to be that no one can die, especially if they know the truth of the system (which also seems to be needed information for them to have). Any of the girls dying (or becoming a Witch, in Sayaka's case) just seems to result in a chain of events that leads to the same outcome every time.
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Old 2011-03-17, 13:56   Link #287
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
Because that's not the biggest problem.

As long as there's a world harvest, Kyubey will stick around and continue to seduce girls after Walpurgisnacht. Homura knows this. The only reason she's a Magical Girl herself is because of this.

This is a very, very bad thing to Homura's immediate wish. As long as Kyubey can do his thing, Madoka (and, in effect, the entire planet Earth) is in constant danger regardless of who survives Walpurgisnacht.


I already said, she may have screwed up in Kyoko's case. She only allowed Kyoko to blow herself up probably because she thought yanking Kyoko out against her will would make her hysterical and just create another Witch. Given how close Kyoko had grown to Sayaka in this timeline, living with the guilt of abandoning Sayaka wouldn't have helped her Soul Gem much.

And, in Timeline 4, that version of Madoka had no idea Kyubey was lying to her during the Walpurgis battle. Sayaka's death has made it so that can't happen this time.
Again, Homura clearly had intention to work with Kyoko so that Homura would not be alone on Walpurgis Night. Letting Sayaka go AWOL on purpose means letting Kyoko go after her, leaving Homura to deal with Walpurgis Night alone.

Madoka was discouraged enough by Mami's death that she would not willingly make a contract until normal circumstances. It is only in times of crisis that Kyubey went to tempt Madoka, like when Kyoko and Sayaka were fighting, and when Sayaka went mad after Elsa Maria. Homura allowing herself to fight alone on Walpurgis Night again creates another crisis where Madoka will want to help out, regardless of what ill fate will befall Madoka herself. She was willing to die in timeline 1, and she was willing to trade over her soul and humanity in the current timeline. What exactly makes you think that Madoka will refuse to do so again if people she cares about are in trouble and Madoka is the only one who can do anything?

It does not make sense that Homura would let Kyoko die as a cost of using Oktavia to scare Madoka, only to lose again on Walpurgis Night. At that point, Madoka's only choice is to become a Puella Magi to help Homura, even at the cost of turning into a Witch, or be killed.



EDIT: On a side note, apparently Homura was originally planned use bow and arrows as well, as shown in her PV.



Apparently it was changed.

Last edited by Shadow5YA; 2011-03-17 at 14:15.
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Old 2011-03-17, 18:42   Link #288
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I'm not really sure that Homura was going to kill Sayaka. I think she was trying to use reverse psychology, by scaring her into taking the seed for Madoka's sake. Sayaka was basically throwing her life away knowingly by not taking the Seed and pushing Homura away, so I think Homura was trying to pull a "scared straight" act to shake her out of it.
I don't know... Homura laid out the logic behind killing Sayaka rather clearly.
In a nutshell, Homura said: "I do not want to help you. I will kill you because you make Madoka sad." - Homura proceeded to transform. It is a little strange to suggest she was actually thinking "I hope Sayaka gets scared enough to retain her sanity."

However, watching the scene again, Homura used the all important "if" with Sayaka. If Sayaka continued to hurt Madoka, then Homura would kill Sayaka. I suppose you have a small case with that lone word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
1. Sayaka wasn't a MG in every loop. Homura had no way to predict her becoming one for sure this time, especially with Mami dying so early (another event she appeared to not expect).
Wait, how do we know this again? From what I recall, Sayaka was not seen as a Puella Magi in some timelines, and not even seen in others. That does not mean Sayaka was or was not a Puella Magi.

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2. The circumstances of her becoming a Witch were different in the previous loop. This is reflected in how different her lair and familiars look.
Ehh... you know my stance on qualitative evidence. Especially with Shaft at the helm.
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Old 2011-03-17, 20:52   Link #289
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I don't know how to work tvropes too well but wouldn't Homura be classified as a "Broken Bird" You know tragic past, cynical attitude, mentoring a more idealistic teammate...

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrokenBird
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Old 2011-03-18, 04:39   Link #290
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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
I don't know... Homura laid out the logic behind killing Sayaka rather clearly.
In a nutshell, Homura said: "I do not want to help you. I will kill you because you make Madoka sad." - Homura proceeded to transform. It is a little strange to suggest she was actually thinking "I hope Sayaka gets scared enough to retain her sanity."

However, watching the scene again, Homura used the all important "if" with Sayaka. If Sayaka continued to hurt Madoka, then Homura would kill Sayaka. I suppose you have a small case with that lone word.
I base the speculation on how Homura and Sayaka acted in that scene. Homura could have just killed her and been done with it, but she didn't. Sayaka's expression changed when the glow of Homura's gem got really bright. It's like she went from dazed, depressed > woken up > back to dazed and stumbling away. Besides that, Homura got away from Kyoko pretty quick...catching back up to Sayaka wouldn't have been difficult, imo. However Homura rushed back to Madoka, seemingly just in time to stop her from contracting. When she got back to Sayaka, it was too late.

Episode 8 is just one of those moments where fan fiction can really take off. There's so many moments were something different could have happened that speculation can easily turn into fan projection.

Quote:
Wait, how do we know this again? From what I recall, Sayaka was not seen as a Puella Magi in some timelines, and not even seen in others. That does not mean Sayaka was or was not a Puella Magi.
Technically, we never see her as Puella Magi in any time but the "current" one. However we know that in timeline 3, she was with the group talking as if she was one, and she did turn into a Witch. She is absent from 2 and 4, in 1 we only see her in the class, and of course we know about 5, the current time.

Quote:
Ehh... you know my stance on qualitative evidence. Especially with Shaft at the helm.
Won't argue that, but if you think about the bigger story, it fits. Each time loop has shown us different events leading to the same, or similar outcomes. Sayaka's lair and familiars are different, but clearly her outcome (turning into a Witch) is the same. So while Homura was probably aware of what could happen (Sayaka falling), she couldn't predict how it would happen.

It's all speculation, I'm just saying that the theory could work. However like I said before there's enough material to write the events in different ways and different outcomes and still feel like it was part of the story. Ymmv.
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Old 2011-03-18, 10:10   Link #291
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Whenever I saw the gem Homura wears at her left hand, it did remember me at something. After reading the Faust article at wiki, I found this picture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pa...t,_1925%29.png

For Homura:
http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Hom...ime_Design.jpg

They are pretty similar and worn at the left hand. Also, they spread their fingers the same way ( more or less).

Anyone here thinking this to be coincidence or to be made intentionally?
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Old 2011-03-23, 20:18   Link #292
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I'm sure this has been said before, but it is a big fear, dreaded feeling that Homura
Spoiler for general spoiler:
Unless the picture I saw on danbooru was made up.. the outfit greatly resembles her.
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Old 2011-03-23, 22:21   Link #293
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Ah, makes me remember when Sayaka was the favorite to be WN...
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Old 2011-04-09, 09:09   Link #294
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The World Homura Only Knows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v3xk2dJ1Ak
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Old 2011-04-09, 09:25   Link #295
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The World Homura Only Knows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v3xk2dJ1Ak
Wow, while the atmosphere doesn't fit, the editing sure does impress. If the walking Homura transitions would have been fluent, I'd give this a 10/10, but it's still excellent.
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Old 2011-04-09, 09:49   Link #296
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The World Homura Only Knows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v3xk2dJ1Ak
Incredible editing. Excellent mash-up.

The World God Only Knows OP is one of the best OPs of 2010, imo, so it's great to see it mashed up with Madoka Magica, which I consider to (so far) be the best anime of 2011.
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Old 2011-04-09, 10:00   Link #297
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I don't know... Homura laid out the logic behind killing Sayaka rather clearly.
In a nutshell, Homura said: "I do not want to help you. I will kill you because you make Madoka sad." - Homura proceeded to transform. It is a little strange to suggest she was actually thinking "I hope Sayaka gets scared enough to retain her sanity."

However, watching the scene again, Homura used the all important "if" with Sayaka. If Sayaka continued to hurt Madoka, then Homura would kill Sayaka. I suppose you have a small case with that lone word.
Just adding my speculation on this. I think given how much Homura cares for Madoka, she can kill someone if it's for the sake of her best friend. Of course, the death of Sayaka (who is also Madoka's friend) would cause sadness, so Homura wants to try other methods first. In any case, Sayaka is in no form to fight back at that moment. Homura can just take time to threaten her until she accepts the grief seed. But if Sayaka still doesn't accept, Homura can choose to finish her off right there.

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Old 2011-04-21, 04:59   Link #298
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You know, what is up with her MG costume? It's just a darker school uniform. Everyone else gets those fancy outfits.
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Old 2011-04-21, 05:02   Link #299
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You know, what is up with her MG costume? It's just a darker school uniform. Everyone else gets those fancy outfits.
I actually didn't even notice the clothes difference until the later episodes. I was thinking: Hey, why does this Homura never transform into a magical girl?
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Old 2011-04-22, 02:38   Link #300
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you got to love this girl. she has unparalleled dedication. it hurts me every single time she breaks down to tears. you could almost feel the hardship and suffering she's been into alive in every cell of her body. she's someone i want to share my every bowl of rice and join her at the table when eating.

the ending is somewhat open to debate and various interpretations, and the result will be equally ambiguous. but no matter what, i'm sure homu-chan will succeed in every battle ahead of her. GANBATTE!!! win the saimoe championships!
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