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Old 2011-04-22, 21:34   Link #321
black_star
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Originally Posted by 00Coyote View Post
So, lets say you are a big bad, come to make things miserable.

QB gives you a choice of opponents.

Pre-ribbon Homura, or Post-ribbon Homura.

Which do you choose?
Post-ribbon homura with her megane from older timelines would have melted me.
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Old 2011-04-23, 04:18   Link #322
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Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu View Post

EDIT: it's funny how some people are like "why she didn't do/say it in episode (insert episode number here) and blahblah" LOL.
In my eyes, that's the same as asking why didn't Gandalf fly the One Ring all the way to Mordor, on eagle's back. What appears to be the easiest and shortest way might have unforseen complications and consequences. In the way Sauron's eye sees everything, the Wish > Magical Girls > Witches system was crafted in such a way that it take a very well formulated wish that exploit something in the system, AND the potential to do it.

Last edited by Sheba; 2011-04-23 at 05:21. Reason: typos
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Old 2011-04-23, 05:52   Link #323
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Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu View Post
HOMURA FOR SAIMOE 2011!!!
of course! i am definitely rooting for homu-chan! i could see her victorious over kuroneko and rise above the angel tachibana herself XD


well regarding moemura i love this scene with madoka's mother. so sweet and they seemed to be blood-related and most likely mother-daughter pair than madoka XD the eyes give it all and pair it with both have overly protective to madoka XD
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Old 2011-04-23, 11:47   Link #324
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The biggest glaring issue I have with Homura, is how she gave up trying to convince Madoka. I mean, her goal is to prevent Madoka from contracting, right? That means she'd have to stay by Madoka's side forever and continually kill any Kyube that she seemed to be about to contract with. Do any of us feel that is something we could, perfectly killing any Kyube just in time for years? How well do you think that would go down with Madoka, to have this animal splattered in her face every single time? Given imperfect human nature, she is going to miss it sometime.

Even if Homura handled WN alone, I don't think it likely Kyube is just going to give up on Madoka, which makes her decision to go cold and distant all the more puzzling. She's had months to think about this, so she would have had to consider the long-term. She knows that Madoka doesn't want to be tricked, and could avoid being tricked if she is told.

So why doesn't she?

It's a fairly glaring idiot ball issue.
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Old 2011-04-23, 13:37   Link #325
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
The biggest glaring issue I have with Homura, is how she gave up trying to convince Madoka. I mean, her goal is to prevent Madoka from contracting, right? That means she'd have to stay by Madoka's side forever and continually kill any Kyube that she seemed to be about to contract with. Do any of us feel that is something we could, perfectly killing any Kyube just in time for years? How well do you think that would go down with Madoka, to have this animal splattered in her face every single time? Given imperfect human nature, she is going to miss it sometime.

Even if Homura handled WN alone, I don't think it likely Kyube is just going to give up on Madoka, which makes her decision to go cold and distant all the more puzzling. She's had months to think about this, so she would have had to consider the long-term. She knows that Madoka doesn't want to be tricked, and could avoid being tricked if she is told.

So why doesn't she?

It's a fairly glaring idiot ball issue.
It could be argued that Homura just wanted to keep Madoka in the dark as much as possible but then one would have to wonder what was with all the cryptic warnings...

So if I had to guess I'd say she tried to talk her out of it but didn't work so she decided to use scare tactics instead.

Anyway Kaijo don't you think you're letting this get to you a little too much?
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Old 2011-04-23, 13:47   Link #326
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
The biggest glaring issue I have with Homura, is how she gave up trying to convince Madoka.
You might find your answers here. Sol put up some rather insightful thoughts, it would be a pity if you just passed them by.
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Old 2011-04-23, 13:56   Link #327
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
The biggest glaring issue I have with Homura, is how she gave up trying to convince Madoka. I mean, her goal is to prevent Madoka from contracting, right? That means she'd have to stay by Madoka's side forever and continually kill any Kyube that she seemed to be about to contract with. Do any of us feel that is something we could, perfectly killing any Kyube just in time for years? How well do you think that would go down with Madoka, to have this animal splattered in her face every single time? Given imperfect human nature, she is going to miss it sometime.

Even if Homura handled WN alone, I don't think it likely Kyube is just going to give up on Madoka, which makes her decision to go cold and distant all the more puzzling. She's had months to think about this, so she would have had to consider the long-term. She knows that Madoka doesn't want to be tricked, and could avoid being tricked if she is told.

So why doesn't she?

It's a fairly glaring idiot ball issue.
Homura has close to zero experience and zero self-confidence when it comes to dealing with social situations and trying to argue with and convince people to go along with her, so its understandable that she didn't want to explore further along that route.

The "hope" that Homura was desperately clinging to was that she could protect Madoka successfully, even though it was obviously impossible to any rational observer. She had to cling to that hope though. Accepting that her goal was completely impossible would have lead to despair and something like the end of episode 11.

The "idiot ball" refers to when a character behaves out of character in a less-intelligent-than-normal way to make a plot possible. Homura is an idiot, but that's an integral part of her character, so she's not carrying the idiot ball.
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Old 2011-04-23, 14:56   Link #328
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
You might find your answers here. Sol put up some rather insightful thoughts, it would be a pity if you just passed them by.
They were "answers" that have been shot down before, and a tone that suggested I might not want to respond to deliberate argument baiting and provocation, but since it is all about Homura, it would be smarter to move it here, so I'll answer it here:

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Guy, you keep on throwing around this word 'idiot' here, and seem to think that you are so much more intelligent than all of the characters in this series, but could you seriously just get some perspective and realize that none of your brilliant 'suggestions' could obviously ever work. What is it exactly that you're arguing here? Right, that it was somehow stupid of Homura to play cold and push Madoka away from her. Obviously, Madoka would never ever sacrifice herself or make a contract anymore if she understood the full situation . Is this seriously the argument you're making here? Does the show's ending ring a bell for you?
Hindsight is 20/20. At the point in time where Homura was still thinking about this, she was still going off Madoka's plea to stop her from being tricked by Kyube(and the extension that Homura used, preventing Madoka from sacrificing herself). Working with the knowledge of the ending, is truly working on meta-knowledge... an accusation that was tossed around earlier.

Let me ask you a question: How exactly was Homura supposed to prevent Madoka from contracting (and thus sacrificing herself in Homura's eyes)? What do you think the best way to accomplish that would have been? Hang around Madoka forever, when Homura outright stated she would be gone after WN?

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Let me actually run through the full breadth of the issues here. Timeline 3 isn't about illustrating that 'telling everyone doesn't work' on some halfassed conceptual level. Two explicit issues are revealed here: Mami will snap, and Sayaka won't believe her. Both of these girls in particular have a vested attachment to the 'righteous Mahou Shoujo' image. Because of their own personal inclinations and views on other Puella Magi's credibility, there is no possibility of Homura gaining their full cooperation or making them believe her. It's not a matter of "if she tried it again, things might turn out differently". Attempting to warn the MGs as a team or a whole is not an option.
What you see there is *one* outcome, and happened because she explained to everyone at once, and was still in her "socially-nervous" stage. The Homura we see now is more controlled, and is more than capable of making heart-felt pleas, as well as thinking calmly enough to find a better way to convince Madoka not to contract.

Homura ain't gonna be around forever, so wouldn't it be a kicker if Homura took off after WN, and Madoka contracted, thus "sacrificing" herself? Brilliant!

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As for attempting to warn Madoka alone, in timelines 4/5 this is what actually happens.
Half-assing it by tossing a cryptic warning at the window in a creepy manner.

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In timeline 4, Homura actually succeeds in keeping Kyuubey away from Madoka (i.e. by killing him) such that her single cryptic warning at the very start of it is enough to keep Madoka from contracting until the very last second.
We don't know that killing him once was what did it. That whole timeline is vague... and you ignore the very fact that it failed. Another Kyube did show up.

Quote:
In timeline 5, Homura starts off making very nearly the same sort of warning but botches her Kyuubey interception effort. As a result, due to the involvement of Mami and Sayaka, Homura is forced to more explicitly inform Madoka of the dangers of the Puella Magi system.
Even if I buy this explanation (which is yet another attempt to fill a plot hole left by the show), Homura didn't really explain the dangers. All they got out of her was that being a magical girl is bad, mmkay? Nothing about soul gems or becoming witches. The major concept that made Madoka speak her plea to Homura, was that MG's become witches.

Quote:
However, Homura's obvious goal isn't and shouldn't be to tell Madoka about how terrible/wrong the system is, because Madoka's friends, i.e. Mami and Sayaka, are still involved in it (thus meaning Madoka could only become more worried about them). Homura's only option is to scare Madoka away from the system and try to convince her to abandon anyone she knows who is trapped in it (which is exactly what Homura does).
At that point, only Mami was involved. And Homura knows that Madoka is a self-sacrificing type, so how logical was it to try and tell Madoka not to be herself? Without any real explanation as to WHY she should?

Let me try it here: Accept that I am right and stop posting. Not going to tell you why. Well, did that work to convince you? Or would you say that I need to make a better case in order to convince you?

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The key distinction, to just say it explicitly, I think you're missing here Kaijo is that Homura isn't trying to stop Madoka from doing 'something dumb', but rather from sacrificing herself. And Madoka is a very self-sacrificial girl, y'know. You don't stop someone from sacrificing themselves by telling them exactly how much other people are suffering.
You do, if you can show them that sacrificing yourself will do nothing for them. Or that sacrificing ones self will only make it worse. "Hey, Madoka, you know that magical girl thing? I know you wanna get out there and smack witches up, but you should know that when your soul gem goes completely dark, you become a witch. And you have a lot of power, so you'd become an incredibly powerful witch, and thus hurt everyone you know and care about. I've come back in time to because your future self told me to stop you from doing that, because we know you could never stand to hurt other people."

Yes, just came up with it off the top of my head, and may need some refinement, but hey, we got plenty of time-loops to jiggle with the word choices.

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As a matter of fact, all your other accusations of 'idiot balls' and 'not asking questions' fall flat along the same lines because actually, no one was (even interested in) fighting the system. Mami was already in the system, so she just wanted some other poor motherfuckers in there with her. Sayaka, meanwhile, liked the illusion of the system and couldn't be arsed with the reality (lol, seriously? Not using Grief Seeds? She was that kind of personality.). Madoka was being shut out by Homura anyways, so frankly the more involved questions of magical girlhood were completely irrelevant to her, while Homura herself couldn't give a toss about anybody's fate but Madoka's in the first place. Finally as for Kyouko, her priorities were ultimately on other things, such as for example dying for the one thing truly important to her :P. Who was supposed to ask the questions really? Kyuubey?
You haven't been paying attention to the questions that have been mentioned over and over, that should have been asked, have you? I'll help by repeating one:

Kyube: "Witches are born from curses, like magical girls are from wishes."
Madoka: "Born from curses? So do you mean witches were once people, too?"

And that's where it would start. Natural, logical questions that should have occurred to normal, reasonable people.

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No 'rationalizations' going on here, sir. Since you clearly have an extensive deductive mind and imagination, you should be able to use this framework to answer any of your other questions. It's blatant in show stuff, man.
Let me put it forth to you: Are plot holes okay, because the audience can simply make up their own explanations for things? If so, that's great! I'll take it with me into my next fanfic, and not bother explaining anything because the audience can simply work it all out in their heads!

in the meantime, for your edification, you may wish to consider reading the following:

8 Classic Movies That Got Away with Gaping Plot Holes
6 Movie Plots Made Possible by Bafflingly Bad Decisions

We can talk after, once you realize that, yes, plot holes and bad decisions are legitimate issues in critiquing a particular work.

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Originally Posted by Kagayaki View Post
Homura has close to zero experience and zero self-confidence when it comes to dealing with social situations and trying to argue with and convince people to go along with her, so its understandable that she didn't want to explore further along that route.
By the 4th and 5th timeline, she had experience, and grew out of that self-confidence thing.

Quote:
The "idiot ball" refers to when a character behaves out of character in a less-intelligent-than-normal way to make a plot possible.
Bingo. This plot was only made possible by characters behaving dumber than normal people. Homura's not alone in that, though.

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Homura is an idiot, but that's an integral part of her character, so she's not carrying the idiot ball.
Actually, given how much thought she has put into things, it is fairly clear that she's not an idiot; at least, no more than normal people. She just had self-esteem and physically-weakness issues, which she got over in the course of a few months. She was confidently able to deal with Kyoko, for instance.
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Old 2011-04-23, 15:43   Link #329
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By the 4th and 5th timeline, she had experience, and grew out of that self-confidence thing.
How do you make that judgement? Her self-confidence thing was all a facade, as we see when she breaks down when madoka confronts her in episodes 8 and 11. And the only people it seems she talked to between across the various timelines were Madoka and Co., so I'm not sure where she would've gotten the experience from. Do we ever see a scene in which she successfully convinces anyone of anything?

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Actually, given how much thought she has put into things, it is fairly clear that she's not an idiot; at least, no more than normal people. She just had self-esteem and physically-weakness issues, which she got over in the course of a few months. She was confidently able to deal with Kyoko, for instance.
I didn't mean idiot in the "low IQ" sense. She's obviously good at finding weapons and putting together traps. Which is a completely different skill from behaving effectively in social situations.

Define dealing successfuly with Kyoko. Does that involve threatening her with a grenade and then running away? She never really even tries to convince Sayaka and Kyoko to go along with her.
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Old 2011-04-23, 16:50   Link #330
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Originally Posted by Kagayaki View Post
How do you make that judgement? Her self-confidence thing was all a facade, as we see when she breaks down when madoka confronts her in episodes 8 and 11. And the only people it seems she talked to between across the various timelines were Madoka and Co., so I'm not sure where she would've gotten the experience from. Do we ever see a scene in which she successfully convinces anyone of anything?
Do we ever see a scene in which Homura eats something?

Regardless of where she got experience, you have to realize that she spent time in that classroom, and with her friends, for about 5 months prior to our timeline. That's time enough for her to get comfortable with them, and indeed, you can see her attitude change from someone meek, to someone more self-assured. Facade or no, she has changed, and was clearly thinking; the battle in episode 11 should prove that, if nothing else.

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I didn't mean idiot in the "low IQ" sense. She's obviously good at finding weapons and putting together traps. Which is a completely different skill from behaving effectively in social situations.

Define dealing successfuly with Kyoko. Does that involve threatening her with a grenade and then running away? She never really even tries to convince Sayaka and Kyoko to go along with her.
What I mean is, she approached Kyoko and made a deal. There was none of the fidgeting and nervousness that was Homura in the first timeline. And then at the bridge, addressed Kyoko and pushing ahead of her. None of the fear or self-doubt that Homura had initially. I think that pretty much shows that Homura of our timeline, is not the Homura of timeline 1, at least in regards to her social skills.
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Old 2011-04-23, 17:17   Link #331
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Do we ever see a scene in which Homura eats something?
Actually yes, we did. She ate a fast food burger place with Madoka once when they had a conversation early on in the series.
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Old 2011-04-23, 17:24   Link #332
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Actually yes, we did. She ate a fast food burger place with Madoka once when they had a conversation early on in the series.
Actually, funny you should mention that. Technically she only ordered a coffee, or a hot drink of some kind.

She fiddles with it, removes the lid, and even (I didn't notice this until I re-watched just now) brings it to her lips. But she never takes a single sip, and leaves it behind when she walks away. Madoka, by comparison, seems to have ordered a full meal.
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Old 2011-04-23, 17:54   Link #333
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Maybe Homura left the drink full on purpose because she hoped that Madoka would drink her coffee after she left the restaurant so that they could share an indirect kiss?

man that Homura is such a perv
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Old 2011-04-23, 18:31   Link #334
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Do we ever see a scene in which Homura eats something?
It was never a plot point that she didn't eat. Also, normal people eat. We never saw Homura in the process of using the bathroom either, but it's safe to say she did that at some point.

It was a plot point that Madoka is something like her only friend ever.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Regardless of where she got experience, you have to realize that she spent time in that classroom, and with her friends, for about 5 months prior to our timeline. That's time enough for her to get comfortable with them, and indeed, you can see her attitude change from someone meek, to someone more self-assured. Facade or no, she has changed, and was clearly thinking; the battle in episode 11 should prove that, if nothing else.

What I mean is, she approached Kyoko and made a deal. There was none of the fidgeting and nervousness that was Homura in the first timeline. And then at the bridge, addressed Kyoko and pushing ahead of her. None of the fear or self-doubt that Homura had initially. I think that pretty much shows that Homura of our timeline, is not the Homura of timeline 1, at least in regards to her social skills.
I think we can agree she's improved, but my argument was more that she's not going go from zero to normal in just a few months.

The orignial point of this discussion was that you said it was unrealistic that Homura couldn't figure out how to get Madoka to not contract with Kyubey.

I was saying that this was realistic given Homura's lifelong lack of social experience, which 4-5 months of school life wasn't going to correct. The idea that she would just not know how to handle the situation is not far fetched.

I hate to sound like I'm bashing Homura in my posts. The fact that Madoka is her only friend is what makes her so adorable.
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Old 2011-04-23, 19:07   Link #335
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I think we can agree she's improved, but my argument was more that she's not going go from zero to normal in just a few months.

The orignial point of this discussion was that you said it was unrealistic that Homura couldn't figure out how to get Madoka to not contract with Kyubey.

I was saying that this was realistic given Homura's lifelong lack of social experience, which 4-5 months of school life wasn't going to correct. The idea that she would just not know how to handle the situation is not far fetched.
None of us initially know how to do much of anything. We get there by experience, by trying and failing a few times. This would be no different for Homura reaching out, and because she cares about Madoka so much, she should be willing to try multiple ways to convince her friend not to contract. It's mainly the fact that she completely tosses that notion aside when there is no reason to, that makes me question her thought process.

With infinite time loops, she could at least experiment in various ways to convince Madoka, but she doesn't. She really only approaches Madoka once, and from then on, all the meetings are Madoka going to see Homura. I dunno, I think most people would at least try, rather than give up. There is at least no harm in it.
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Old 2011-04-23, 22:10   Link #336
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None of us initially know how to do much of anything. We get there by experience, by trying and failing a few times. This would be no different for Homura reaching out, and because she cares about Madoka so much, she should be willing to try multiple ways to convince her friend not to contract. It's mainly the fact that she completely tosses that notion aside when there is no reason to, that makes me question her thought process.

With infinite time loops, she could at least experiment in various ways to convince Madoka, but she doesn't. She really only approaches Madoka once, and from then on, all the meetings are Madoka going to see Homura. I dunno, I think most people would at least try, rather than give up. There is at least no harm in it.
Homura approached Madoka more than once. If timeline 3 is any indication, Madoka has little inclination to believe her without visual proof, and Homura can't ethically provide proof on the Witch transformation without making herself look amoral just like Kyubey.

It's because she has already tried reasoning with her to no avail that she decides to do the opposite and distance herself from her. I don't know why there is this continued assumption that Homura hasn't tried when she has.

There is no evidence to suggest that Madoka could be deliberately convinced and informed either when everything that happened were never really under Homura's control. Homura did not plan on Mami dying, nor did she want Sayaka to turn into a Witch for Madoka to see. Homura did not want Kyoko to sacrifice herself for Sayaka either, because Kyoko was Homura's only ally before she is left alone again on Walpurgis Night. Homura's breakdown and confession wasn't completely intentional either, as she was visibly shaken when Kyubey accused her of making things worse for Madoka.

All the tragedies that Madoka witnessed were not completely Homura's doing. What exactly makes you think Homura can infallibly calculate and control every event? Even if she had a good plan, what guarantee is there that everything will happen according to Homura's will?

Claiming that Homura can control Madoka's will just because of prior experience is a logical fallacy when events do not necessarily occur the way she plans it.
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Old 2011-04-24, 01:32   Link #337
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Something has just hit me while reading on the definition of ZA WARUDO.

Does Hiro Nakamura ring a bell?

And, oh... Is Homura the alter-ego of Dr. Who?

Maybe she's a distant relative of a certain character who can stop time and use that to kill opponents.
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Old 2011-04-24, 03:56   Link #338
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Walpurgisnacht is indisputably Homura.

The gear motif is based on the inside of Homura's shield.

It's the only Witch that consistently appears in every single timeline, just as Homura always lept through different timelines as a Magical Girl.

Madoka--who is now omnipresent in the space-time continuum and knows where each Witch was born--tells Walpurgisnacht "I'll protect you before you take this form" before the camera IMMEDIATELY cuts to Homura lying on the ground, being shielded by Madoka.


just fyi.
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Old 2011-04-24, 05:10   Link #339
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Walpurgisnacht is indisputably Homura.

The gear motif is based on the inside of Homura's shield.
Not indisputable, but it makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
It's the only Witch that consistently appears in every single timeline, just as Homura always lept through different timelines as a Magical Girl.
I don't see how WN and Homura consistently appearing in the same timeline is relevant to one another. WN could be appearing because it's a pre-determined fate, much like how Oktavia consistently appears in every timeline because Sayaka was doomed to fall into her grief spiral. Also don't forget that WN appeared in the very first timeline before Homura/Homeroom/Homerun/HomuHomu-chan ever became a magical girl as well.

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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
Madoka--who is now omnipresent in the space-time continuum and knows where each Witch was born--tells Walpurgisnacht "I'll protect you before you take this form" before the camera IMMEDIATELY cuts to Homura lying on the ground, being shielded by Madoka.

just fyi.
Madoka's line of "I'll protect you [WN] before you take this form" is directed at WN but can also double up as Madoka's message to all witches in general. Just because the scene immediately cuts to Homura witnessing the magical blast is not indicative enough that the line was aimed indirectly towards Homura through WN, even if we were to assume that WN is indeed the witch form of Homura. The cut itself may've just been for technical purposes alone to add dramatic effect to the scene.

There is also the issue of these dancing witches upon WN's death/undoing which seems to support WN being a congregation of witches more than WN being the witch form of Homura.


To be fair I'm not trying to shut down the possibility of WN being Homura's witch form entirely altogether, just trying to show that WN equalling Witch Homura is not indisputable based on what was presented.
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Old 2011-04-24, 05:12   Link #340
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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
Walpurgisnacht is indisputably Homura.

The gear motif is based on the inside of Homura's shield.

It's the only Witch that consistently appears in every single timeline, just as Homura always lept through different timelines as a Magical Girl.

Madoka--who is now omnipresent in the space-time continuum and knows where each Witch was born--tells Walpurgisnacht "I'll protect you before you take this form" before the camera IMMEDIATELY cuts to Homura lying on the ground, being shielded by Madoka.


just fyi.
Except that the Walpurgisnacht has appeared in all timelines concurrent with Homura, i.e. Homura has always been present where Walpurgisnacht is, even in the very first timeline where Homura has yet become a Mahou Shoujo. Yet the Walpurgisnacht in the first timeline already has the gear motif, and looks pretty much identical across all the timelines.

Also, Homura's time travel has been pretty consistent as a "conscience transfer" mechanism, rather than a physical item transfer. It'd be highly unlikely that Walpurgisnacht is a witch Homura from the future who went back in time (just to shoot that theory down in the bud before it's mentioned). Thus the only way for Walpurgis to appear from Homura would be if Homura does become Walpurgis in causality... except that we always see Walpurgis AND Homura together.

Root point: It's hardly indisputable.

And there's another reasonable alternative to what Walpurgisnacht is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba
if Walpurgis Night Witch is either a Witch former Magical Girl so powerful that she is only outclassed by Madoka or the sum of ALL Witches. After some checking of german lore, it IS the latter. She is the Captain Planet of Witches, the sum of the overall despair of every fallen magical girls.
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