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Old 2011-02-12, 09:51   Link #101
UtsukushiiOto
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If Homerun would be a pureblood vampire, that would explain everything, since they're pretty OP.
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Old 2011-02-12, 16:55   Link #102
dysaniac
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Ready for some alternate character interpretation?

Homura is evil.

Straight up, pure evil, no chaser.

In fact, she's the big bad for the show. Everything occurring is part of her evil grand plan. Her plan calls for Madoka to become a magical girl, but not until a particular point in the future.

First, Homura has ostensibly been trying to prevent Madoka from becoming a magical girl. She's supposed to be a shell shocked veteran, beaten down by what she's seen and done, and unwilling to see others face the same fate.

Well she's done a terrible job at that, hasn't she? Sayaka became a witch, which should be as terrible as Madoka becoming a witch, but seems to have missed her interest completely. And despite her protestations to Homura, she hasn't done a particularly good job at dissuading her.

It's not like there isn't details about being a magical girl that can't turn people away from the role. The Episode 6 discussion thread is full of people arguing about that. Having your soul ripped from your body and stored in a little capsule, the certainty you're going to die at some point, either because you'll be killed by a witch, perhaps turn into a witch, or be killed by a fellow magical girl are pretty good reasons to avoid the business. People get on Kyuubey for not telling the girls that, but he trying to create magical girls, it's not in his interest to give candidates reason to doubt. But Homura's self-proclaimed interest is to keep Madoka from becoming a magical girl, why didn't she mention all those things to her at some point?

Conveniently, Homura is always there just as Madoka could be in so much trouble as to actually become a magical girl right then and there. Nice of her, sure, but why wasn't she able to take care of the problem before Madoka had to be put in that situation? Homura can teleport, it seems. She can show up out of the blue wherever she practically wants. Why always swooping in to save the day at the very last moment all the time? Is she trying to protect Homura, or impress her? She can't be unaware of the impression it would make.

Let's look at her past interactions with other characters. Why does Kyuubey know so little about Homura? Homura appeared to be trying to kill Kyuubey, indicating some kind of anger towards him. But yet, Kyuubey called Homura a "irregular," and it doesn't seem like she contracted with him. Kyuubey also has suspicions about her, saying "she's planning something. Be careful!" and "Homura Akemi...Could you be?!"

Mami Tomoe, the only character in this show everyone universally liked, obviously had a serious beef with Homura, which doesn't make much sense. Mami appears a genuinely nice human being who wanted to be close to someone. Also, Homura had only just transferred in, and magical girls end up being fairly territorial. Did they get in a fight at the National Magical Girl Convention? Or did Mami know something beyond what we know, which we can never find out because she's dead?

And behold her various oddities. She knows everyone, and seemingly everything, without them knowing her. She contracted with some other magical creature, it seems. She appeared in Homura's vision/dream thing, for no adequately good reason. If Kyuubey was manipulating her, why not show Mami or Sayaka getting the crap beaten out of them? Or show her friends or family being killed? Hit her where it hurts already, so she's ready to jump in with two feet immediately?

Finally, from a meta standpoint, Homura as a unabashed good guy seems too easy. Her TVTropes character page links to scores of really positive tropes, mostly about her quiet nature. She's gotten the lion's share, if not every bit of the benefit of the doubt. I say Akiyuki Shinbo and Gen Urobuchi are playing us, the anime watching public, as fools. They knew how she'd be viewed. Knew our experience with characters like her would shade our perceptions. Got the character a voice actress who anime fans are predisposed to like. All so that in the end we'll be blown off our seats by the final reveal.

Mark it down: Homura will be Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica's ultimate deconstruction.
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Old 2011-02-12, 17:10   Link #103
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Okay, that's interesting. But the one (maybe there's more) thing that would then be unreasonable is: why did Homura ask Madoka if her family and friends were important to her in episode 1? As a result she said that if they >are< important to her and she does not want to lose them, then Madoka should stay as she is right now. Now, I don't see a reason why she would say that if ultimately she wanted her to turn into an MG. No reason why she should be concerned about Madoka's family, and no reason to pretend she is concerned either. What I find intriguing is that none of the characters have yet straight-out lied once (including Kyubei!). At least in that one scene from episode 1 I'm convinced that Homura warned Madoka out of good-heartedness.

^Alternatively, Homura said that so she can own Madoka afterwards and say: "See, I told you you should stay who you are. Now look what happened." Afterwards as in the situation escalates, people important to Madoka are lost >and< we get to know Homura is evil. But people would be funny to believe that Homura is such a person to begin with.
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Old 2011-02-12, 17:12   Link #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysaniac View Post
Ready for some alternate character interpretation?

Homura is evil.

Straight up, pure evil, no chaser.
Oh dear, you are so going to be lambasted now, heh. Nothing against you, it's just that people will defend Homura as being holy and perfect, and yet decry Kyube for the exact same reasons: withholding "critical" information.

At any rate, your interpretation and speculation is no odder than most. Pretty much has an equal chance of being, true, too. Homura is definitely up to something. She can pop up anywhere, and said she didn't want Sayaka to be an MG, and yet doesn't seem that concerned about her.

Of course, it is possible she is being sincere in her stated desire for Madoka to not become an MG. But isn't it great that we can consider more than one possibility?

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Originally Posted by Vanish View Post
Okay, that's interesting. But the one (maybe there's more) thing that would then be unreasonable is: why did Homura ask Madoka if her family and friends were important to her in episode 1?
It's important to note for this theory, that Homura wants Madoka to become an MG, just not quite yet. Kyube even kinda refers to the possible motivation when he calls Madoka a "secret weapon." Homura wants to surprise someone or something by keeping Madoka's abilities secret until the right time. Thus, she doesn't want to totally drive Madoka off; just prod her enough that she keeps a distance. If it looks like Madoka is about to contract, then BAM intervene as a way to say, "not just yet."

If she really wanted to stop Madoka from being an MG, she would have told her about the whole business with the soul being dragged out. She would have promised to protect the town so Madoka didn't have to. She would have promised to look over Sayaka as best as she could. There are many things she could have done to keep Madoka out.

Instead, Homura's main concern seems to be this W-night coming up.

Note that I don't entirely believe this theory, but I can see where it has its merits.
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Old 2011-02-12, 17:19   Link #105
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I'll play along dysaniac

What about her trying to stop Mami from fighting that witch in episode 3?You could say it was all an act and she'd know Mami would tie her up but when Mami died she didn't go "just as planned",but rather seemed quite shocked,and she was all alone so it's not like she pretended to be shocked,her reaction was quite genuine.
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Old 2011-02-12, 17:19   Link #106
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysaniac View Post
Ready for some alternate character interpretation?

Homura is evil.
And she saved Sayaka's soul gem because.... wait, why did she do that if she was evil??

To prevent Madoka from making a contract?

No, because her troubled expression and the way she rushed to the rescue show she wasn't even thinking about Madoka at the moment. This was the Homura behind the mask, the Homura that despite her usual cool demeanor, ultimately can't not let someone die in from of her.

But hey, we're still have half a series to go. Anything can happen.
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Old 2011-02-12, 17:33   Link #107
dysaniac
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I'll respond to some responses here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanish View Post
Okay, that's interesting. But the one (maybe there's more) thing that would then be unreasonable is: why did Homura ask Madoka if her family and friends were important to her in episode 1? As a result she said that if they >are< important to her and she does not want to lose them, then Madoka should stay as she is right now.
Homura knows that Madoka is the type to put her friends and family before herself, and saying so reinforces in Madoka's mind their primacy. And events go on to prove, to Madoka, that if she wants to protect her friends and family, the way to do so is to become a magical girl.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
If she really wanted to stop Madoka from being an MG, she would have told her about the whole business with the soul being dragged out. She would have promised to protect the town so Madoka didn't have to. She would have promised to look over Sayaka as best as she could. There are many things she could have done to keep Madoka out.
Quite true. This gives weight to the possibility that Homura isn't as genuine in her stated desire to stop Madoka as it seems.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
And she saved Sayaka's soul gem because.... wait, why did she do that if she was evil??

To prevent Madoka from making a contract?
Doing so keeps herself in Madoka's good graces, and deflects attention. Besides, if Madoka had watched one friend get eaten and killed another, she'd probably be kind over the whole magical girl business. Homura saving Sayaka's life let's her think Homura's got her back.

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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
What about her trying to stop Mami from fighting that witch in episode 3?You could say it was all an act and she'd know Mami would tie her up but when Mami died she didn't go "just as planned",but rather seemed quite shocked,and she was all alone so it's not like she pretended to be shocked,her reaction was quite genuine.
Going "No, it's dangerous," in front of Madoka reinforces her concern bonifides. Perhaps she didn't know Mami would have such a major mental lapse and actually get killed?

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Of course, it is possible she is being sincere in her stated desire for Madoka to not become an MG. But isn't it great that we can consider more than one possibility?
I know, isn't it great?
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Old 2011-02-12, 17:42   Link #108
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysaniac View Post
Doing so keeps herself in Madoka's good graces, and deflects attention. Besides, if Madoka had watched one friend get eaten and killed another, she'd probably be kind over the whole magical girl business. Homura saving Sayaka's life let's her think Homura's got her back.
But all this contradicts with Homura's behavior during the whole thing. The despair in her eyes, etc. She's clearly not thinking about being in Madoka's good grace at that moment, she didn't think about anything, she just rushed after the soul gem, it's pretty much an instinctive reaction. All that considering, your rationale doesn't seem to make much sense to me.
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Old 2011-02-12, 17:48   Link #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
And she saved Sayaka's soul gem because.... wait, why did she do that if she was evil??

To prevent Madoka from making a contract?
If Sayaka died, Madoka would be in no shape to become an MG. ;p

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
But all this contradicts with Homura's behavior during the whole thing. The despair in her eyes, etc. She's clearly not thinking about being in Madoka's good grace at that moment, she didn't think about anything, she just rushed after the soul gem, it's pretty much an instinctive reaction. All that considering, your rationale doesn't seem to make much sense to me.
Careful, you don't want to fall into the trap some have fallen into here, by claiming you know a character's thoughts. For all we know, she thought quickly, or what was happening contradicted with her plans.

As I said, I don't completely buy the theory, but one can speculating anything and make the facts fit. It just goes to show how absurd speculation can be.
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Old 2011-02-12, 17:50   Link #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
If Sayaka died, Madoka would be in no shape to become an MG. ;p
It's the same, that still overlooks how the scene actually plays out, how Homura reacts, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Careful, you don't want to fall into the trap some have fallen into here, by claiming you know a character's thoughts. For all we know, she thought quickly, or what was happening contradicted with her plans.
I'm not claiming I know what the characters think. I'm basing this in the fact that Homura basically never loses her cool demeanor, so her reaction here speaks of visceral concern, not a calculated fear.
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Old 2011-02-12, 18:51   Link #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
The despair in her eyes, etc
Their argument is that the dispair in her eyes is that of her evil masterplan going down the drain if she doesn't get that soulgem back.

Doesn't mean I agree,just wanted to point it out
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Old 2011-02-12, 18:59   Link #112
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Telling Madoka too much about the MG condition might gain sympathy from Madoka. Which can lead to Madoka deciding to become MG so they dont have to carry the burden alone. Homura already said that Madoka is too kind for her own good. Looking back to episode 1, that was the exact tactic Kyubey tried in the dream sequence.
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Old 2011-02-12, 19:09   Link #113
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Their argument is that the dispair in her eyes is that of her evil masterplan going down the drain if she doesn't get that soulgem back.
Interesting. But there's this one shot, when Homura is over the truck and already has the soul gem in her hand, so if she really had an "evil master plan" everything would be alright then. Yet, her expression here seems the most sad, and it's not coincidence that Kyubey's voice over is telling the girls the truth about the soul gems exactly at that moment. It reads as Homura being sad while holding the soul gem because she's thinking about the fate of the magical girls, which is consistent with those little chats with Madoka in episode 4 and 5 (about magical girls basically being walking corps and doomed to be alone).

So, I don't think Homura is evil myself. I don't even think is possible to conclude that with the clues we have at the moment, all the opposite actually. I think the difference between Homura and Kyubey, despite both being pretty secretive and calculating about things, is that Homura, ultimately, can't help but care. Kyubey, on the other hand, just doesn't give a fuck.
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Old 2011-02-12, 19:24   Link #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
It's the same, that still overlooks how the scene actually plays out, how Homura reacts, etc.
And everyone of those can have a different explanation. It's fine if that's what you think, but it's not written in stone.

Quote:
I'm not claiming I know what the characters think. I'm basing this in the fact that Homura basically never loses her cool demeanor, so her reaction here speaks of visceral concern, not a calculated fear.
You said:
Quote:
she didn't think about anything
Those were your words, not mine. You clearly said she didn't think about anything, yet we don't know that. You can interpret her facial expressions anyway you want (and interpret them many different ways), but we can't know for sure what she was thinking.
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Old 2011-02-12, 19:37   Link #115
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You can interpret her facial expressions anyway you want (and interpret them many different ways), but we can't know for sure what she was thinking.
You can interpret it anyway you want, but considering how the characterization has been lay out, some interpretations are more logical than others. Besides, Urobuchi isn't going to spoon feed you the story you know. The clues and hints, and all the subtext that you dismiss, is what's really building the story.

Anyway, I got the feeling we're not going to agree on this, so let's just stop here.
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Old 2011-02-12, 19:39   Link #116
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I wouldn't really say there's much debate over whether she has evil intentions or not. Her significance in the story is obviously high. Heck, she's even second in the credits, right after Madoka's name.
-She's the first character to make an appearance in the entire series, aside from Madoka herself.
-She knows every new appearing character by name.
-She holds a number of different abilities, and pretty much out-powers all of the other characters.
-She's considered an 'irregular'.
-She has that cold, "I've seen it all", veteran look in her eyes.
-She's classy, emotionless, but her first impression is deceptive.

To be honest, speculations or not, but it's that precise situation when you can see where everything's going. Her appearance is simply too 'expensive' for an evil mastermind or even an antagonist, for that matter.
I wouldn't conclude that all of her beliefs, aims or ideals are right, thus it's possible that Madoka will eventually lead Homura to a certain personal resolution, but regardless of how they'll progress, there's no denying that both of them will fight along side each other and work towards a common goal.
Spoiler:
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Old 2011-02-12, 19:42   Link #117
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Like you said UtsukushiiOto in which Madoka will eventually talk over with Homura about her deciding to become a magical girl and Homura accepting it, or she will be in a very dire situation where she will be forced to have to accept Madoka's help as a magical girl in order to stop an approaching force that seems to be coming as announced in episode 6.
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Old 2011-02-12, 19:51   Link #118
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Like you said UtsukushiiOto in which Madoka will eventually talk over with Homura about her deciding to become a magical girl and Homura accepting it, or she will be in a very dire situation where she will be forced to have to accept Madoka's help as a magical girl in order to stop an approaching force that seems to be coming as announced in episode 6.
Provided Madoka becoming a magical girl is a good thing, which we still don't know really. At the moment I wouldn't speculate to much about this anyway though. We have too little info. IMO learning Homura's motivation for stopping Madoka from making the contract is a must before we can speculate about Madoka's own fate.

There's so many warning signs, that it wouldn't be so weird if Madoka contracting = end of world (or at least the city). We're talking Urobuchi after all. Let's just wait and see.
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Old 2011-02-12, 19:59   Link #119
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these speculations about homura being evil are plausible. and that scares me since the mere idea that she is breaks my heart. T_T but srsly, i think she is given how gen tends to put a facade on characters only to reveal later they're the irony of it. DX and sometimes, he knew people will look too much into them,making them think the character isn't what she truly is only gen to tell later that her outright attitude is genuine after all.DX
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Old 2011-02-12, 20:06   Link #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
You can interpret it anyway you want, but considering how the characterization has been lay out, some interpretations are more logical than others. Besides, Urobuchi isn't going to spoon feed you the story you know. The clues and hints, and all the subtext that you dismiss, is what's really building the story.

Anyway, I got the feeling we're not going to agree on this, so let's just stop here.
Oh, I know he's not going to spoon feed us. But we won't know which clues and subtext are relevant until the series is done (hopefully). Then we'll know the full motivation behind why everyone did what they did.

As I've said before, the human mind will pick patterns out of chaos. Even patterns which don't exist. So just by virtue of being human, we'll see things that aren't there, or ascribe importance to something that wasn't intended. Recognize that your preconceived notions will introduce bias into your conclusions. I know mine do, which is why I say "I don't know." I'd love a certain viewpoint to be true, but I'm not going to get so attached that I get emotionally upset when someone picks it apart.
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