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Old 2011-02-12, 20:11   Link #121
Vanish
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It's also human that you get emotionally upset if someone were to pick something apart just for the sake of picking something apart.
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Old 2011-02-12, 20:28   Link #122
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
As I've said before, the human mind will pick patterns out of chaos. Even patterns which don't exist. So just by virtue of being human, we'll see things that aren't there, or ascribe importance to something that wasn't intended. Recognize that your preconceived notions will introduce bias into your conclusions. I know mine do, which is why I say "I don't know." I'd love a certain viewpoint to be true, but I'm not going to get so attached that I get emotionally upset when someone picks it apart.
It's not that I know what's going to happen. I'm just confident enough with my own ability to comprehend a narrative that I wouldn't refrain myself to take a defined view of things just because the show hasn't ended yet.

If I'm proved wrong, so be it, but I have my take and I stand by it.
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Old 2011-02-12, 20:33   Link #123
Jimmy C
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I think that, for Homura to be potrayed as outright evil would not be in keeping with how everyone else in the show has been shown.
If she's going to be "evil" in some way, I see two routes.
One, she wants to deal with a Problem, but her Solution will have people denoucing her as "evil."
Two, all she wants is something very dear to herself alone. Yet, how she goes about it will have a positive effect on others. Then they show she's willing to let the world burn after getting what she wants.
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Old 2011-02-12, 20:37   Link #124
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
One, she wants to deal with a Problem, but her Solution will have people denoucing her as "evil."
Two, all she wants is something very dear to herself alone. Yet, how she goes about it will have a positive effect on others. Then they show she's willing to let the world burn after getting what she wants.
It's called Nanoha A's
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Old 2011-02-12, 20:55   Link #125
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Didn't think of that until you pointed it out, and I liked that show.
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Old 2011-02-12, 22:01   Link #126
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I think there is a high possibility that Homura became an antagonist or even the big bad. But, even if they go to this route I believe she's going to be sympathetic or at least not outright "evil". There are too many good deeds that Homura has committed without any gain for her to be branded as pure evil. At worse, I think she's going to be the "end justifies the means person" or a fallen hero. Besides, from the meta standpoint this will actually be more heartbreaking since it is easier to defeat someone who you believe has no sympathetic qualities.

Episode 6 actually makes me very fearful for Homura's life. She's doing too much saving the cast lately. Sayaka got saved twice by Homura on this episode alone.

Btw, anyone want to help with something? I was rewatching episode 6 and picked a different sub version. And we'll there is a particular scene - the one where Kyoko and Sayaka is going to fight again where the two group subbing have very different interpretation of the scene. I would like to know which is more correct...

First version
Kyoko: Annoying people, attract annoying friends!
Homura: Are you saying something about me?
Homura: We discussed this. You’re not supposed to do anything.
Kyoko: You’re plan’s too slow!
Kyoko: Beside’s we’re all ready to fight.
Homura: Then I’ll fight her. Stay put this time.
Kyoko: Fine. You’ve got until I’m done eating.
Homura: That’s enough.
Sayaka: Are you making fun of me!

Second version
Kyoko: Birds of the feather bug me together, huh.
Homura : Then, what would that make your friends?
Homura : This isn’t what we agreed upon I told you to not to lay a finger on Sayaka Miki.
Kyoko : You’re too damn lax.
Kyoko: Plus it doesn’t matter . She’s after me too.
Homura: Then, I’ll take you on.
Homura: I won’t hold back.
Kyoko: Fine, as soon as I’m done eating.
Homura: Very well.
Sayaka: Hey, I’m right here you know!


As you can see, the subs of both group carries very different connotation regarding Homura and Kyoko's agreement and their current relationship. This would also help make clear what Homura is planning to do with the Kyoko-Sayaka rivalry.

Last edited by night_sentinel; 2011-02-12 at 22:20.
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Old 2011-02-12, 22:45   Link #127
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This came up in the Sayaka thread.First version is the correct one,the second version is incorect,a third incorrect version (you can read it in the Sayaka thread) had Homura teaming up with Kyoko
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Old 2011-02-13, 04:00   Link #128
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
I think there is a high possibility that Homura became an antagonist or even the big bad. But, even if they go to this route I believe she's going to be sympathetic or at least not outright "evil". There are too many good deeds that Homura has committed without any gain for her to be branded as pure evil. At worse, I think she's going to be the "end justifies the means person" or a fallen hero. Besides, from the meta standpoint this will actually be more heartbreaking since it is easier to defeat someone who you believe has no sympathetic qualities.
That's the problem with bad translations, I think U_U

Could you explain what makes you think that Homura could become an antagonist?

Quote:
Episode 6 actually makes me very fearful for Homura's life. She's doing too much saving the cast lately. Sayaka got saved twice by Homura on this episode alone.
If Homura dies sooner than ep12, I'd do a total double-take. The way I see it, she has "tragic heroine" plastered all over herself. Even then, I'd be extremely surprised. At worst, I see her becoming force-seperated from Madoka again - the relationship between her and Madoka is going to be the most important one in the entire show.

About the subbed version: Go with MahouShoujo+yesy here. They got all scenes right. gg was completely off, they turned Homura into a scheming hitman rather than the broker for peace, and Nutbladder was mostly right, but messed up the bridge scene by believing that Homura was threatening Kyoko, where she rather wanted to fight Sayaka instead of her (to knock her out without harm, instead of Kyoko who clearly had a killing intent).
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Old 2011-02-13, 16:32   Link #129
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The manga makes it pretty clear that Homura and Madoka knew each other before a mass memory wipe / reset. I wish we can get clean scans though so the Manga thread can actually get some discussion going.
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Old 2011-02-13, 23:18   Link #130
night_sentinel
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So both version have inaccuracies? I thought that version 1 seemed to make Homura too friendly with Kyoko from the beginning since when Kyoko commented about annoying friends Homura pops in and deadpans if Kyoko is talking about her. There seemed to be a secret joke going between those two in version 1.

Version 2, on the other hand, is the one that I wished to right since Homura is very protective of Sayaka. On the other hand, version 1 is more badass with Homura stating she can beat Sayaka at the time where Kyoko will eat the small stick of pockey meaning she'll take Sayaka out of commission in a few seconds. Which looking at what happened in the beginning of the episode is probably true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar
Homura: This isn't what we discussed. I thought I told you to keep your hands off of Miki Sayaka.

Kyoko: Your method wouldn't get the message across! She's not backing down either way!

Homura: I'll take her on then. Don't get involved.

Kyoko: Then I'll wait until I'm done eating this. *pointing at pocky*

Homura: That's plenty of time.

Sayaka: I won't be that easy
Thx, mentar. So the agreement between Kyoko and Homura seems to be that Kyoko leaves Sayaka alone and leave Sayaka for Homura to deal with. In return, Homura will give the city (territory) to Kyoko after the Walpurgis night.

I wonder what method Homura have decided that is inefficient. At worse, it could be waiting for Sayaka to get offed due to her inexperience but, after the end of episode I discarded this theory. I know some posters have said that Homura only saved Sayaka because Madoka is watching or that she planned Mami's death.

In Homura's defense about intentionally planning to kill a cast to stop Madoka from being an MG

Homura if she wants Sayaka to die so that Madoka would not be drawn into being an MG. This is the chance she was waiting for. Madoka herself caused Sayaka's death and its due to (depending on your pov) horrific detail of being a magical girl which is having your soul ripped and put into a fragile gem that when separated from your body will cause a sort of coma. (technically you are biologically dead but since MG can be revived - its more like a coma ) A detail that Kyuubey understandably did not tell.

Madoka will not in anyway connect this to Homura and will most likely drive the MG out of her mind - out of guilt and fear. Since, if Sayaka died right there and then Homura's words will have greater effect - magical girls are dead man walking and there is nothing but pain and sorrow there. In Madoka's perspective, Sayaka and Mami both girls that became magical girls got bad ends that are not worthy of them and the other magical girls Homura - does not enjoy the job and Kyoko, not a nice person by any stretch of imagination.

But, the chance passed, Homura herself runned after (if you believe in time manipulation ) or used blink teleportation in order to get Sayaka's gem and personally returned it to safety.

What does this means?

I'm 90% sure( at this moment barring huge character change or plot twist ) that whatever method Homura planned to do with Sayaka will not lead to her death or making her quietly disappear out of Madoka's sight. If Sayaka and Kyoko will confront each other, Homura will most likely interrupt it and take out Sayaka. Which is logical, Sayaka being a newbie might be easier to take out than Kyoko and Sayaka kinda hates Homura right now. Nothing Homura does will make Sayaka's opinion of Homura darker.

Another corollary of this episode, even if you did not believe on episode 3 about her facial expression on Mami's death and her intention of facing the witch herself and thus preventing Mami's death. This episode for me sunked the theory. The reason why Homura might want Mami's death is for Madoka to not be an MG. If she does not allow Sayaka someone she believes does not have "good qualities" for being an MG and inexperienced to boot die on such a "fortunate" chance, its highly probable that she does would also prevent Mami's death esp. if it is possible to implicate the death on her like Sayaka is doing.

Conclusion, whatever persuasion Homura might use to convince Madoka of stopping to be an MG she will not intentionally engineer death of Madoka's loved ones to do it and may/will prevent it from happening even if it will hinder her chance of convincing Madoka.

P.S. To those who believe that Homura have future knowledge and might be playing along since she knows Mami will refuse her offer or she believes that Madoka will be traumatized more by what she had done if Sayaka lives since it will be a living monument of her mistake. This is still possible . Just very unlikely at this point of time... or really really unlikely in my opinion.

If we just look at Homura's facial expression we can see some of her intentions and Homura is clearly shocked by Mami's death and angry by it. She is similarly shocked by Madoka throwing Sayaka's soul gem and did not expect it to happen. And yes, I believe that facial expression cannot be faked especially since Homura's facial expression happens when she is alone or where the cast cannot see it. The only reason we can see it all Homura's facial expression is because the camera emphasize it and we can rewind and freeze the frame. Unless, you believe that Homura is acting even when she is alone ...

Disclaimer:
This is just to show that Homura planning to kill any of Madoka's loved one to prevent her to became an MG highly improbable. But, it does not preclude Homura having any ambiguous intention or being an antagonist.

Last edited by night_sentinel; 2011-02-13 at 23:53.
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Old 2011-02-14, 05:14   Link #131
herbert
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Originally Posted by Vanish View Post
Time manipulation: 8/8
- explains why she couldn't get out of Mami's bind
- explains that she moved while water drops fell
- explains why she vanishes and reappears from places
- explains the way she evaded Charlotte's munch attacks
- explains the time bombs
- explains why her hair doesn't move upon reappearing (Law of Ueki's Marylin)
- explains the way Sayaka was saved
- has a connection to a hinted time-related wish
- doesn't explain that Kyoko's barrier is still in place after she passes Madoka
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Old 2011-02-14, 05:41   Link #132
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Spoiler for archers:
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Old 2011-02-14, 07:25   Link #133
applejuice
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Originally Posted by UtsukushiiOto View Post
Spoiler for archers:
But Homura = Bomber.

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Old 2011-02-14, 07:32   Link #134
Vanish
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^To be fair, it just says they're the Archer class and that they have the option to use a bow. In that sense they're still both similar because both don't even use bows (that much). So if you call Homura a bomber, that makes F/SN Archer a twin swordsman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by herbert View Post
- doesn't explain that Kyoko's barrier is still in place after she passes Madoka
Considering the barrier and its functions are magic based, I didn't mention it because I don't see how either of the 3 mentioned abilities could explain it. Personally I'd say Homura's magic was strong enough to outdo / weaken the barrier so she could pass by.

Last edited by Vanish; 2011-02-14 at 07:48.
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Old 2011-02-14, 07:47   Link #135
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Originally Posted by Vanish View Post
Considering the barrier and its functions are magic based, I didn't mention it because I don't see how either of the 3 mentioned abilities could explain it. Personally I'd say Homura's magic was strong enough to outdo / weaken the barrier so she could pass by.
Well, I thought the barrier was meant to prevent anything but magic "creatures" to come in (a.k.a crying Madoka).

If she can teleport like many people believe, I don't see why you can't explain how she pass by.
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Old 2011-02-14, 07:55   Link #136
Vanish
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Originally Posted by Sageblink View Post
Well, I thought the barrier was meant to prevent anything but magic "creatures" to come in (a.k.a crying Madoka).

If she can teleport like many people believe, I don't see why you can't explain how she pass by.
I don't think it's possible to analyze the barrier in a plausible way, but that's a possibility I guess.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. Though since it might still be something that we simply can't understand unless someone confirmed our wild guesses, what about the scene right after that? Where we see Homura walk while the water drops still fall, and in the next moment she comes from above.
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Old 2011-02-14, 09:43   Link #137
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I think that, for Homura to be potrayed as outright evil would not be in keeping with how everyone else in the show has been shown.
If she's going to be "evil" in some way, I see two routes.
One, she wants to deal with a Problem, but her Solution will have people denoucing her as "evil."
Two, all she wants is something very dear to herself alone. Yet, how she goes about it will have a positive effect on others. Then they show she's willing to let the world burn after getting what she wants.
It's called Kannazuki no Miko (according to the people at /u/)
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Old 2011-02-14, 17:21   Link #138
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Originally Posted by Vanish View Post
^To be fair, it just says they're the Archer class and that they have the option to use a bow. In that sense they're still both similar because both don't even use bows (that much). So if you call Homura a bomber, that makes F/SN Archer a twin swordsman.
Since what I know is that archer class is already taken by Madoka.
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Old 2011-02-14, 17:26   Link #139
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Since what I know is that archer class is already taken by Madoka.
Madoka appears as an archer in official and concept artwork, and it's the same with Homura. The truth is that we don't know in either case.
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Old 2011-02-14, 18:13   Link #140
BaKaBaKaOtaKu
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Madoka appears as an archer in official and concept artwork, and it's the same with Homura. The truth is that we don't know in either case.
yeah. DX sadly, those OAs they do have the potential to be some god-tier troll. DX am just hoping the closeness shown bet. madoka and homura at those are genuine.
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