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Old 2011-05-05, 13:26   Link #241
Jimmy C
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He was there at the funeral, holding Hitomi.
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Old 2011-05-06, 04:18   Link #242
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You mean, on the left? Yes, the sillhouettes look like them, although it's hard to tell.
OK, Kamijou, I'll write this one to your credit.
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Old 2011-05-06, 04:35   Link #243
Akashin
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Can you even make out who anybody but Madoka (and the unspecified people on the right) is at the funeral? There is a guy on the left that looks like Kyousuke, but I thought they were way too dark to tell.

I still think he was there whether we saw him or not, though; absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and all that, to use the saying completely out of context. :P
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Old 2011-05-06, 05:22   Link #244
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LOL, presumably yes. It's just that it seems logical that they should have shown him if he was present. The whole scene was compressed though, either originally or to soothe MBS's uncertainty again. Might as well wait till September and see how it will be in the BD... Although I think if the funeral lasted longer, I'd start bawling right there and then...
And for Mami and Kyouko, not even a funeral was ever due in that timeline...
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Old 2011-05-06, 12:26   Link #245
Jimmy C
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Neither of them left their bodies behind, nor was there anyone to bury them.
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Old 2011-05-06, 13:04   Link #246
Akashin
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Aye. And episode 11 proved that they were at least aware of Mami going missing but, as Homura said back in episode 4, their cases are just treated as strange disappearances. It's made all the more tragic (and a tiny bit ironic) by the fact that both of the girls in question have no families to declare them missing. Had Sayaka died similarly to either of them, a more proper investigation may have been done since she has family.

And even worse for Kyoko, they may not even know she's gone. As far as the town at large is concerned nothing happened, since Kyoko just kinda showed up out of nowhere and died there. Nobody barring the main cast (that we know of, allowing for people she may/may not have mugged and the owner of the hotel she dumped Sayaka's body at) even knew her, so it's entirely possible that she just kinda faded away without even the afterthought that Mami got.
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Old 2011-05-06, 15:41   Link #247
kaigan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
He was there at the funeral, holding Hitomi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snork View Post
You mean, on the left? Yes, the sillhouettes look like them, although it's hard to tell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
Can you even make out who anybody but Madoka (and the unspecified people on the right) is at the funeral? There is a guy on the left that looks like Kyousuke, but I thought they were way too dark to tell.
i must admit, it is really hard to tell who is who. madoka is the only one we can clearly distinguished.

but it won't hurt to make an educated guess and approximation, right?




legend:
? - bastard kamijou
01 - female, not in school uniform, short hair
02 - maybe sitting
03 - female, classmate, short hair
04 - male, classmate
05 - female, classmate, short hair or pigtails pulled in front
06 - maybe sitting
07 - female, classmate, short hair, hands on shoulder of 5
08 - male, classmate
09 - female, classmate, long hair
10 - male, classmate
11 - female, classmate, short hair, glasses maybe
12 - madoka
13 - male, classmate
14 - male, classmate
15 - male, classmate

the people sitting in the foreground i assumed are close relatives of saya. our point of interests are the standing line and partly the further silhouettes in the background.

The 04 guy seems to be popular choice for kamijou with 05 gal as hitomi. this is due mainly because of assumed developing relationship between the two. many believed that they are already a couple. but upon closer inspection of kamijou's profile, 04 guy is highly unlikely him.

notice how smooth kamijou's crown and how full and intricate his bangs.


contrast this to 04 guy.

actually, kamijou has higher chances on guys 10, 13, or 14. but he supposedly has more intricate and fuller bangs, as mentioned above. also, kamijou is supposedly limping, stooped, and still using clutches.apparently he still can't stand fully erect. but 10, 13, and 14 guys seemed to be having no problem standing straight and queuing in line (considering he's handicap).

now, look closely at hitomi's profile. she has full, long, and fluffy hair.


contrast this to the 05 girl. don't be confused of 06's silhouette. it's not part of the girl's hair. when you zoomed it, the shade of 06 is different from the 05's head, so they are separate and from different entities.

it's really hard to approximate because the face is fully covered. but by inspecting the hair, it's hardly hitomi's.



if kamijou did attend the funeral, he's highly probably not in this scene or he's not with hitomi. even if 05 gal happened to be hitomi, kamijou is not near hitomi, because 04 is highly unlikely him.

even if kamijou happened to be 04 guy, he's not with hitomi, because 05 gal's hair doesn't pass to be hitomi's.


conclusion: though kamijou might mourn over saya's death, he unlikely attended the funeral service. even if he did, the silhouette shot showed unlikely his presence. who knows, he's further in the back? outside in the rain? in the toilet? or crying over saya's urn/casket?


i might be too harsh towards kamijou. but i'm trying to be objective. he's highly and probably not in this scene.

Last edited by kaigan; 2011-05-06 at 15:48. Reason: typos
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Old 2011-05-06, 15:52   Link #248
Akashin
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Or maybe his presence wasn't relevant to the story they had to tell in the last two episodes (Sayaka's funeral was almost solely for the benefit of Madoka's character development and giving her story closure), so it wasn't a big deal to show him? Hell, why silhouette the people in that scene at all? It could just be that they being lazy design-wise, and felt Kamijou and Hitomi were worth more than being silhouetted props. Who knows.

I just don't think his apparent absence from that scene is in any way damning. But then, I'm also trying to be his white knight, so meh.
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Old 2011-05-06, 15:59   Link #249
kaigan
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^ i guess you're right. he did his part, to be ungrateful and hurt saya that is. bastards like him should not consume too much air time.
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Old 2011-05-06, 16:20   Link #250
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Quote:
The 04 guy seems to be popular choice for kamijou with 05 gal as hitomi.
I actually thought it was 2 and 3. No.4's haircut doesn't seem to match.
The worst part about Kamijou is his cluelessness. He has no idea of what his oblivious attitude did to Sayaka's life, and maybe it's for the better that he never will. But that's the bitter reality kicking in again - how many times people happened to neglect those close to them (speak, phone, send a postcard at least) until something sad happened?
Somehow I don't feel nearly as much negativeness towards Hitomi. While it looks weird to jump at the guy once he's out of hospital and give your visibly indecisive friend a 24 hours ultimatum... We'll never know her true situation, it seems. It's still possible that she had a crush on him for quite a while but didn't want to stand in Sayaka's way, until her patience failed her. It's still not dismissable that she might have bult up the whole thing to push Sayaka forward (and were it not for the Soul Gem issue, who knows what would have happened). Her ending up with Kamijou after Sayaka's death is not that harsh to see, since they could even got closer while comforting each other. But anyhow, I can't help suspecting that she might be blaming herself to some extent - it's just NOT plannable when you give your friend time to take the guy before you do, and instead she disappears and dies. The bitter memories are bound to remain. In fact, I kinda feel sorry for her.
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Old 2011-05-06, 17:08   Link #251
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I thought the scene with her in episode 12 proved that her affections weren't in any way an effort to push Sayaka, though that doesn't necessarily remove the possibility that she backed out of confessing to Kamijou for Sayaka's sake in canon (manga says she didn't back out, and it's based on the same script, but whether she really did or not wasn't important at that point).

Even so, it seems a bit odd to go to such lengths to explain Hitomi, yet not give Kamijou the same courtesy. The only things I can think of him truly being guilty of are not telling Sayaka when he was being dismissed from the hospital, and not approaching her after he was out. But it could just be that he was shamed; after all we've already seen his short temper and he knows quite well that he hurt Sayaka with it, so perhaps he just didn't know how to properly approach her (or, perhaps, assumed that she would come to him like always).

I wouldn't insist upon this idea or actually use it in an argument, since it's nothing more than a speculative assumption. My point is though, if we're judging Kamijou solely based on what we see or don't see (we don't even get a glimpse of his thoughts, whereas with Hitomi we at least got to see her feelings a bit during her talk with Sayaka) without speculating at all, Hitomi is no more defensible than he is.
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Old 2011-05-06, 17:34   Link #252
kaigan
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I just don't think his apparent absence from that scene is in any way damning.
uhmm, i actually think it's for his best interest not to attend the funeral at all and mourn instead inside the comfort of his home. if hitomi and the bastard did actially become a couple, it will be traumatizing experience for both of them, considering hitomi acknowledges and is aware that saya had feelings for him.

it's also hinted hitomi confessed what she knew to their sensei. and probably it became public knowledge too. of course, they knew nothing about saya turning into a witch. but considering a teen love triangle issue, it's probably controversial and it's better to lie low. the wounds are fresh and bleeding hard.

it will be a sore to hitomi too. the last time they talked was about kamijou, then now she's dead.



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I actually thought it was 2 and 3.
the 02 head, probably. but it's really hard to tell. i guess that one is sitting in the front row further to the back of us, viewers. but considering kamijou to be a secondary character, why let him sink further in the background, while his unnamed classmates have almost visible outline?

the 03 could pass for him probably, only it's a girl. she has her hand clipped close to her heart. i assume it's girl because of the fluffy sleeve and distinct cuff.

Quote:
The worst part about Kamijou is his cluelessness. He has no idea of what his oblivious attitude did to Sayaka's life, and maybe it's for the better that he never will. But that's the bitter reality kicking in again - how many times people happened to neglect those close to them (speak, phone, send a postcard at least) until something sad happened?
well, i never knew people gifted in music can be so heartless and insensitive. where did he get his inspiration, if not for love? how can you play the notes, if you can't pluck heartstrings? what's music if you can't experience it and touch other people?

i also though they were childhood friends or at least knew each other for quite some time. but hey, how much did he really know about saya? of course, people with intimate association might speak roughly with each other from time to time, sometimes setting aside politeness. but he's a man. saya's a woman. act like a man. be gentle. displaying tantrums to a compassionate girl, who'd been always been there? he don't need to kiss saya on the lips. but at least show some genuine gratitude. a simply hug or thank you is the least i expect. or take her out sometime after he get out in the hospital. or treat her a special music number - just for her. but it didn't happen. if only any of these had happened, saya would never drown in despair.

Quote:
Somehow I don't feel nearly as much negativeness towards Hitomi.
nothing against her really. that's love. you gain some, you lose some. remember chaos theory? when one seems to be blissful and happy, somewhere out there is someone suffering and in pain.


EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
The only things I can think of him truly being guilty of are not telling Sayaka when he was being dismissed from the hospital, and not approaching her after he was out. But it could just be that he was shamed; after all we've already seen his short temper and he knows quite well that he hurt Sayaka with it, so perhaps he just didn't know how to properly approach her (or, perhaps, assumed that she would come to him like always).
setting aside my extreme dislike for the bastard, i guess you have a point. he might just want some space. but i don't think friends that "close" will let some misunderstanding to last long.

he could had approached her in private, an sms message at the least. besides saya was always there and near. and of course, he's a man. act like one. he realized his mistake then repair the damage. or he simply don't mind? saya isn't worth his time? more time for violin perhaps? of course we don't know his thoughts, but considering it's not explored, probably it's not important.

it's more shameful not to admit you made a mistake and hurt someone who probably who only genuinely cared for you. so better treasure them.

Last edited by kaigan; 2011-05-06 at 17:50.
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Old 2011-05-06, 19:32   Link #253
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To be honest I see no reason to hate Hitomi. She did nothing wrong. She happened to like the same guy her friend did and had enough courage to tell her friend that much, and she even gave her the chance to confess - which, I think is a lot, since Sayaka should have had a better chance than Hitomi, considering she was childhood friends with Kamijō. Also, it seems Hitomi had a hard time dealing with this, if we consider the time she was trapped by that witch familiar as some sort of indication. That aside, we don't know what type of relationships Kamijō and Hitomi may have had before. For all we know, Hitomi may also have been visiting him at the hospital as well.

Anyway, I don't think Kamijō should be hated for not loving Sayaka back. No matter what Sayaka did, there was no reason for him to return her feelings, and I don't think Sayaka wanted to force him to love her. Sure, as I've said before, he was really ungrateful for not thanking her for all the things she had done (i.e. not counting the contract with QB). Furthermore, I think he was really a jerk for not approaching her after he left the hospital. But other than that, I don't think he had to love Sayaka back, and if he liked Hitomi and wanted to go out with her, there's nothing wrong with that.
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Old 2011-05-07, 04:56   Link #254
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Even so, it seems a bit odd to go to such lengths to explain Hitomi, yet not give Kamijou the same courtesy. The only things I can think of him truly being guilty of are not telling Sayaka when he was being dismissed from the hospital, and not approaching her after he was out. But it could just be that he was shamed; after all we've already seen his short temper and he knows quite well that he hurt Sayaka with it, so perhaps he just didn't know how to properly approach her (or, perhaps, assumed that she would come to him like always).
That's possible, too. The main problem people have with Kamijou is that they're annoyed at him, seeing as he could have possibly influence the situation to a better course (at least for a while), but did not do that. Without being given proper screentime and reasoning, Kamijou looks not like a character here, but rather an embodyment, a factor of Sayaka's tragic fate. That's why people fail to sympathise with him, even though it's pretty assumable he's NOT feeling alright about Sayaka's death either.

And he wasn't supposed to jump at Sayaka the moment he was healed, shouting "look, I'm alright now, I can play again, marry meeeeeeee!" He was just supposed (and expected) to keep conact with Sayaka, the rest utterly depended on her. Of course, it's NOT a given that her situation would end up differently then. But still...
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Old 2011-05-07, 10:42   Link #255
Akashin
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That's possible, too. The main problem people have with Kamijou is that they're annoyed at him, seeing as he could have possibly influence the situation to a better course (at least for a while), but did not do that. Without being given proper screentime and reasoning, Kamijou looks not like a character here, but rather an embodyment, a factor of Sayaka's tragic fate. That's why people fail to sympathise with him, even though it's pretty assumable he's NOT feeling alright about Sayaka's death either.

And he wasn't supposed to jump at Sayaka the moment he was healed, shouting "look, I'm alright now, I can play again, marry meeeeeeee!" He was just supposed (and expected) to keep conact with Sayaka, the rest utterly depended on her. Of course, it's NOT a given that her situation would end up differently then. But still...
He could have influenced things for the better, just like Madoka or Sayaka could have called out to Mami and broke her out of her fear (assuming that is the case; I'm still not certain) so that Charlotte doesn't rip her head off. But even if he did reach out to Sayaka (and we have to remember that the time he was released to Sayaka going Witch only spanned over a few days, so perhaps he was just busy and didn't have time), there's no guarantee she would let him after the Soul Gem reveal. The fact that she saw but didn't try talking to him at school says that she probably wasn't that eager to see him after she learned what had happened to her, so while him taking the extra step to help her may have helped, we can't be sure.

Meh. Between the idea that he may not have known how to talk to her and the idea that he may have just been busy, I'm not too critical of him. We also have to remember that he was just released from the hospital where, only a couple days before, he was certain he'd never play violin again. Given that the only time we see him outside of school after his release is when he is playing at his home, it's not unrealistic (nor is it necessarily a bad point against him, given the circumstances) to say he was just prioritizing the thing he loved but was sure he'd never have again. "I can thank Sayaka for her support later," he may have been thinking.

I'm probably fighting too hard to protect somebody that doesn't need to be protected, though. If nothing else, I'm definitely in the minority for supporting him.
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Old 2011-05-07, 12:56   Link #256
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Well, all the reasoning you give sounds credible. Not like Sayaka will be any better off from our ranting. If there's a guy truly guilty of what happened to her, his initials would be not K.K., but rather... U.G.?
Might as well settle down and hope that this violinist and Hitomi will have a daughter and name her Sayaka as all fanfics imagine. That's the least our genki knight deserves... But I still predict Kamijou will not gain much popularity in the fandom soon... if ever.
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Old 2011-05-07, 13:05   Link #257
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I don't want him to gain much popularity.

While I don't mind the guy (as my posts have proven handily), he's boring in a series like this. In a series about girls fighting against despair and eldritch abominations, I frankly don't want to see/read about the guy playing his violin somewhere on the sidelines. I just don't dislike him for what little we see of him, is all.
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Old 2011-05-08, 00:25   Link #258
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Honestly, I don't fault Kamijou for anything he did or didn't do in the series at all. I don't think he was grossly insensitive towards Sayaka simply because he didn't immediately tell her that he was discharged from the hospital, or didn't immediately seek her out at school. He was on a pretty strict time schedule considering just how fast Sayaka had a mental breakdown and eventually died over the course of the series, and then there's the fact that Sayaka might not even have been his only regular visitor at the hospital, which would remove pretty much whatever reason Sayaka would have known for being a top priority...

And for what it's worth, it's not even a guarantee that Kamijou wouldn't have returned Sayaka's feelings. For all we know, if Sayaka confessed, Kamijou would have accepted and they'd both live happily ever after. I just don't see him as the evil villain who crushed Sayaka's heart and spurned her affections at every turn from being a total insensitive twat like a lot of people seem to.

edit: this picture made me laugh though

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Old 2011-05-27, 05:12   Link #259
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^ I think Sayaka's self-esteem wasn't that low (being shy around one's crush is hardly a sign of self-esteem for a teenage girl), it was the Soul Gem revelation that dropped her self-esteem below zero.

Then again, it's just occured to me that Kyouko actually had a better influence on her than Homura. After the conbersation with Kyouko, Sayaka didn't accept her offer of friendship but at least snapped out of it for a while. Upon knowing what Kyouko had gone through, she started treating her more like a rival, but less like an enemy - and she gained some determination to live on and fight on, even if just to spite Kyouko's philosophy. That was one time she actually managed to take a grip of herself...
... alas, Hitomi couldn't have possibly chosen a WORSE time to bring up her matters. Blame Urobuchi and his love for worst case scenarios.
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Old 2011-05-27, 21:39   Link #260
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Quote:
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... alas, Hitomi couldn't have possibly chosen a WORSE time to bring up her matters. Blame Urobuchi and his love for worst case scenarios.
To be fair to Hitomi, she had absolutely no idea what was going on with Sayaka and Madoka because she had been completely locked out of their experiences by that point. In a regular world, she was being perfectly fair to Sayaka and giving her a chance that most girls don't give when it comes to boys they like. I'm sure if she had known, she never would have said anything at all and would have done her best to encourage and support Sayaka.
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