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Old 2011-02-09, 12:57   Link #81
Jimmy C
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With Mami, they showed how a Magical Girl can die on the job.
But with Sayaka, they can show more suffering (death is, regretably, too "easy" for the poor victim) of being a Magical Girl. Such as her losing everything she holds dear one by one, or she starts obsessing oover beating Kyoko instead of protecting the city.
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Old 2011-02-09, 13:45   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, especially when I'm saying it coming from the position of someone who has used it.

"Killing" one person early is a great way to raise the Anyone Can Die specter. Regardless if you don't plan to kill anyone else, you've made your audience think that you can, so that raises he dramatic tension. The fact that quite a few people here are thinking that she will, is proof of that. When I wrote Future Tense, I always got a chuckle out of people who expected someone to die, and I even mocked fun of it by making it look like Sein had died, but she actually survived.

Killing Sayaka now would be overdoing it, and not needed. We already fear for life, so the main goal has been accomplished. Given the type of series this is, I'm gonna go with the "he plans to subvert tropes and conventions" line of thought. "Flags" are merely our own preconceived biases based on experience, which would be foolhardy to rely upon in this case.
Good points.

Not only that, but from a writer's perspective, somebody has to carry the magical girl action scenes of this anime going forward. Consider that each and every episode of this anime has had such action scenes in it:

Episode 1: Mami fights familiar/witch, wins

Episode 2: Mami fights witch, wins

Episode 3: Mami fights witch, loses and gets killed; Homura fights same witch, wins

Episode 4: Sayaka saves Madoka from a familiar/witch

Episode 5: Kyoko fights with Sayaka; Homura makes cliffhanger-esque appearance, saving Sayaka.


So, who carries the magical girl action scenes for the rest of this anime? It's a pretty safe bet that Homura vs. Kyoko will be a significant part of Episode 6, but I doubt that Homura can carry all of the magical girl action scenes of this show going forward.

Kyoko is currently in an antagonistic role, so she can't really carry them either.

Mami is dead.

Madoka isn't a magical girl yet (and I doubt that she'll become one soon; this anime is clearly dragging that out as long as it can).

So that means that Sayaka is still invaluable, even just for action scene purposes.
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Old 2011-02-09, 14:45   Link #83
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I mean, most folks here are very familiar with TV Tropes, and are aware of the concept of trope subversion. What if Shinbo and Urobuchi are aiming to really subvert tropes related to "death flags"? I'd honestly find that rather brilliant on their part.
I doubt that they would care much about "TV tropes" (a project which in my opinion has been perverted from the initially good idea).

Have you played some games from Urobuchi Gen yet? Or have some other experiences with his works? One quality of his which I found in pretty much every of his projects so far, and which I find particularly appealing about him, is that he takes alot of effort to build his storylines in a very logical way. That doesn't mean that they're not surprising and full of twists, but usually when this happens, you can look back and realize "ah, I missed that clue".

In a nutshell, I find it scary how he manages to present the mind of a character that is 100% deranged in a way that his actions seem reasonable. Maybe coming from a weird set of "morals", but presented in a way that makes their decisions understandable.

So, he's no troll or court jester. He's putting the genre "Mahou Shoujo" through his dark grinder, but in his own way. I'd be extremely surprised if he'd pull a 180 just for the sake of doing something unexpected. It's just not how he operates.

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So, who carries the magical girl action scenes for the rest of this anime? It's a pretty safe bet that Homura vs. Kyoko will be a significant part of Episode 6, but I doubt that Homura can carry all of the magical girl action scenes of this show going forward.
I see the general point you're making, and I agree that it's fundamentally sound, but I honestly doubt that there will be much of a clash between Homura and Kyoko. Maybe a "let's see how strong she is" kind of skirmish, but nothing prolonged or really serious. Homura has no beef with Kyoko and no reason to fight for the sake of Sayaka either. As long as she keeps Madoka from forming a panic-contract, she should be fine. And Kyoko should be smart enough to back off when she finds out that Homura is no pushover.
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Old 2011-02-10, 22:34   Link #84
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This interview makes me wonder if some havn't written Sayaka off too early,she might end up surviving the show,even if she'll suffer quite a lot.
What really intrigues me is that last bit, Sayaka a key character? Most people view Homura and QB as the key characters so for Homura's voice actress to say it might mean that Sayaka will be quite important to the plot
Yes, Sayaka as a key character really makes sense.
It could even be that the staff put together an epic troll in deceiving us about who the actual star of the show is, and it turns out it's not Madoka despite the series' title. Now that would be truly epic trolling
I mean, what has Madoka actually done so far? Nothing much, really. There's been some idle talk about this and that, but nothing happened so far.
Sayaka however has already seen real action! Despite being an inexperienced newbie, she hold her own pretty well against a seasoned magical girl like Kyouko.
With some experience and knowing how to use her powers to the fullest, she could mop the floor with Kyouko.
If they had wanted to finish off Sayaka, they would've done so quickly and unceremoniously as they did with Mami, without pointing out how good she can fight already as an inexperienced newbie against a seasoned foe.
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Old 2011-02-11, 02:36   Link #85
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First Mami, and now Kyoko. Both have now warned that wishes for other's benefits go horribly wrong.

If Sayaka dies, it won't be until we see how her wish can go horribly wrong. I think it's fairly clear that is the role she serves in this story. Not to break down characters into simple plot devices, but if one was to, Mami served as the lesson that one can be defeated by witches. Sayaka will be, at the very least, a lesson in making bad wishes. Possibly more, if the eventual outcome of a wish gone "horribly wrong" pushes her to despair. After all, we also still don't know what happens when a soul gem fades completely. I'm sure someone will have to serve as an example for that as well.

That said, let me reiterate that I hate seeing characters as simply plot devices, so let me end this by also saying that while I don't much like Sayaka, she gets points in my book for resisting Kyuube's constant manipulation in regards to pulling Madoka into forming a contract. A refreshingly clear-head character point that stands all at odds with her otherwise impulsive behavior.
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Old 2011-02-11, 03:03   Link #86
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LOL, Kyoko actual echoed part of my point in the stupidity of Sayaka. If she did not depend on the crutch of using wishes, she could have been with Kamijo being his personal cheerleader cum nurse cum helper, helping him get to grips with his non-fatal condition.

Now she has condemned herself and possibly dragged Madoka down with her. Well done Sayaka on your level of idiocy
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Old 2011-02-11, 10:05   Link #87
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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
LOL, Kyoko actual echoed part of my point in the stupidity of Sayaka. If she did not depend on the crutch of using wishes, she could have been with Kamijo being his personal cheerleader cum nurse cum helper, helping him get to grips with his non-fatal condition.
I just had some bad...thoughts after reading that last part...

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Now she has condemned herself and possibly dragged Madoka down with her. Well done Sayaka on your level of idiocy
Well remember what Madoka's mom said about making mistakes? They are all a part of growing up.
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Old 2011-02-11, 10:07   Link #88
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Now she has condemned herself and possibly dragged Madoka down with her. Well done Sayaka on your level of idiocy
She's done nothing to condemn Madoka. Madoka has pursued her own downfall. She doesn't need to become involved in Sayaka's affairs, and Homura has often warned her so, but she does anyway. She follows Sayaka on Witch Hunts when she knows that she can get killed. She has completely involved herself in the world of Puella Magi without any leading from Sayaka.

And Kamijou didn't seem like the happiest camper pre-Sayaka magical girl. I don't think it would be too far off that he would have committed suicde if he had fallen farther into his misery. Sayaka tried her hardest when she was a normal person but she knew that there was only so much she could do and needed a miracle.

I think you're over simplifying Sayaka here.
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Old 2011-02-11, 10:15   Link #89
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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
LOL, Kyoko actual echoed part of my point in the stupidity of Sayaka. If she did not depend on the crutch of using wishes, she could have been with Kamijo being his personal cheerleader cum nurse cum helper, helping him get to grips with his non-fatal condition.

Now she has condemned herself and possibly dragged Madoka down with her. Well done Sayaka on your level of idiocy
Come to think of it , Sayaka could have wished for the power of healing without her Soul Gem darkening - that would probably have been sufficient for her purposes , and much more reusable . Then again , that wish might not have played out in the way we might normally think it would.....

So yes , Sayaka chose the coward's way out , in some ways - but to be fair to her , she was under enormous emotional duress when she made the contract- and that seems to be the time when Kyubey prefers to strike.

Speaking of which , I relooked at the scene where Sayaka contracted with Kyubey. If you look very closely , her eyes go empty at one point of the contracting process , much like what happened when Madoka threw her Soul gem away.

On that note, I think there would be quite alot of death fics exploring what would have happened to Madoka had Sayaka's soul gem been run over , and Sayaka killed for real coming up quite soon . It seems to be one the most "Fanficable" events in the anime so far.

Also, someone should do a fan art of Sayaka wielding a Runeblade. Considering what she is essentially now , I think it would be quite appropriate.
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Old 2011-02-11, 19:02   Link #90
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Sayaka got on my nerves this episode when she said Homura waited for Mami to die so she could fight the witch and collect the grief seed.Someone needs to remind Sayaka that Mami tied up Homura so she couldn't move,then she saved their lives.
In fact she's saved Sayaka's life 3 times now,hopefully Sayaka will start showing some gratitude next episode.
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Old 2011-02-11, 19:13   Link #91
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Sayaka got on my nerves this episode when she said Homura waited for Mami to die so she could fight the witch and collect the grief seed.Someone needs to remind Sayaka that Mami tied up Homura so she couldn't move,then she saved their lives.
In fact she's saved Sayaka's life 3 times now,hopefully Sayaka will start showing some gratitude next episode.
She probably won't... and I'm disappointed that Madoka didn't tell Sayaka about Homura being tied up. The only ones who could possibly tell Sayaka about that were Mami, Madoka, and Homura... and out of the two that do talk to her, one is dead so... =/
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Old 2011-02-11, 19:23   Link #92
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Sayaka got on my nerves this episode when she said Homura waited for Mami to die so she could fight the witch and collect the grief seed.Someone needs to remind Sayaka that Mami tied up Homura so she couldn't move,then she saved their lives.
In fact she's saved Sayaka's life 3 times now,hopefully Sayaka will start showing some gratitude next episode.
Two points:

1. I could be misremembering, but I don't think Sayaka was present when Homura was tied up by Mami. So it makes sense for Sayaka to think "Why did Homura only conveniently show up after Mami was already killed?" In fact, now that I think about it, that outrage that Sayaka made towards Homura near the end of Episode 3 finally makes sense to me...

2. Homura also threatened to fight Sayaka to the death in Episode 6, let's not forget. If you believe Reckoner and his ideas (and he could be right here, unfortunately), Homura intended to kill Sayaka in Episode 6. Why exactly should Sayaka show gratitude to a person trying to kill her?
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Old 2011-02-11, 19:31   Link #93
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Two points:

1. I could be misremembering, but I don't think Sayaka was present when Homura was tied up by Mami. So it makes sense for Sayaka to think "Why did Homura only conveniently show up after Mami was already killed?" In fact, now that I think about it, that outrage that Sayaka made towards Homura near the end of Episode 3 finally makes sense to me...
True, Mami tied up Homura during episode 3, and the only people present were Madoka, Mami, and Homura. But since Homura doesn't feel like explaining things to Sayaka who clearly misjudges her based on what she saw. It seemed kinda easy to predict her reactions towards Homura when she took the Grief Seed in episode 3, but what Madoka could do to "lighten" the situation is to tell Sayaka what truly happened between Mami and Homura. But she is too caught up in trying to prevent fighting between magical girls to think of that clearly, there were also the rash actions of Sayaka that kept Madoka from thinking clearly in the situation.

Quote:
2. Homura also threatened to fight Sayaka to the death in Episode 6, let's not forget. If you believe Reckoner and his ideas (and he could be right here, unfortunately), Homura intended to kill Sayaka in Episode 6. Why exactly should Sayaka show gratitude to a person trying to kill her?
If Homura wanted to kill Sayaka, why did she tell Kyouko to back off from attacking her? That makes me completely puzzled
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Old 2011-02-11, 19:34   Link #94
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Two points:

1. I could be misremembering, but I don't think Sayaka was present when Homura was tied up by Mami. So it makes sense for Sayaka to think "Why did Homura only conveniently show up after Mami was already killed?" In fact, now that I think about it, that outrage that Sayaka made towards Homura near the end of Episode 3 finally makes sense to me...

2. Homura also threatened to fight Sayaka to the death in Episode 6, let's not forget. If you believe Reckoner and his ideas (and he could be right here, unfortunately), Homura intended to kill Sayaka in Episode 6. Why exactly should Sayaka show gratitude to a person trying to kill her?
That's exactly why totoum suggests that someone should remind her, because she doesn't know.

It was a direct threat? But Homura's actual intent was not to kill Sayaka. Otherwise that pretty much contradicts the fact that she saved her soul. Out of two reasons:
1) Sayaka would've died
2) The Soul Gem gets tainted and it might become a biiiig problem
I'm pretty confident to say that #1 was the primary reason why she went after the Soul Gem, with #2 actively in mind.
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Old 2011-02-11, 19:38   Link #95
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2. Homura also threatened to fight Sayaka to the death in Episode 6, let's not forget.
A flat-out no, she didn't. Never. But I heard rumors that there were some bad edits in some fansub versions again. So please give references for us to recheck and correct.

Heck, throughout the entire episode Homura tried to get Kyoko off Sayaka's back. She saved her ass in the beginning, she negotiated a backoff from Kyoko, on the bridge she clearly claimed Sayaka to end the fight in a nonlethal way like before... and when Madoka tossed Sayaka's soul gem, Homura's always-controlled mask finally slipped: She was SHOCKED, and without thinking immediately blinked after the gem. Reaching it took her alot of real effort, her face was contorted in strain. So if she meant Sayaka any harm, why would she do all that and then return the soul gem to her?

She's been saving Sayaka's butt so many times already I'm beginning to lose track.
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Old 2011-02-11, 19:39   Link #96
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

1. I could be misremembering, but I don't think Sayaka was present when Homura was tied up by Mami. So it makes sense for Sayaka to think "Why did Homura only conveniently show up after Mami was already killed?" In fact, now that I think about it, that outrage that Sayaka made towards Homura near the end of Episode 3 finally makes sense to me...
Good point,then I'll get mad at Madoka for not telling her this

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2. Homura also threatened to fight Sayaka to the death in Episode 6, let's not forget. If you believe Reckoner and his ideas (and he could be right here, unfortunately), Homura intended to kill Sayaka in Episode 6. Why exactly should Sayaka show gratitude to a person trying to kill her?
Wait,uh,what?

Maybe I'm missunderstanding things but:
-At the start of the episode she just knocked her unconcious for her own good,she never had the intent to kill
-In the conversayion with Kyoko 'If possible i'd like to settle things peacefully.Stay out of it,I'll deal with her."
-At the end she said she'd fight Kyoko,not Sayaka.

And really she had a golden opportunity to kill Sayaka and come off as innocent:she had her soul gem in her hands,she could have crushed it right there on the truck and killed her,then come back and tell them "sorry,tried to take back the soul gem but it ended up getting crushed",but she didn't.
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Old 2011-02-11, 19:44   Link #97
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The issues are that Homura initially told Madoka to give up on Sayaka. And the things which would have Sayaka seeing Homura in a better light, are things that people need to tell her. Madoka didn't tell Sayaka about Homura being tied up. And we'll see if Madoka tells her that Homura brought back her gem.

So, in a way, I don't blame Sayaka. She's not working off complete intel. I blame Madoka more (who I'm beginning to really dislike more than any other whiny MG).
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Old 2011-02-11, 19:52   Link #98
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A flat-out no, she didn't. Never. But I heard rumors that there were some bad edits in some fansub versions again. So please give references for us to recheck and correct.
Two conversations between Homura and Kyoko according to gg subs...


During the DDR scene...

Kyoko: So what about that Sayaka? She's going to butt in again if we don't do anything about her.

Homura: I want this done as quietly as possible. Don't do anything. I'll handle it myself.

(that came across to me like two mafia members talking about how best to 'whack' someone )


Later on, during the Kyoko/Sayaka confrontation where they were about to fight... strongly implied that it would be a fight to the death, too...

Homura: We discussed this. You're not supposed to do anything.

Kyoko: Your plan's too slow! Besides, we're all ready to fight!

Homura: Then I'll fight her. Stay put this time.


Now I'd like to think that Homura was just BSing Kyoko in both of these instances, and had no intention of killing Sayaka. But Reckoner suggested otherwise on the Episode 6 thread in a debate with me. I can try to find his specific posts if anybody wants to see them.


Quote:
So if she meant Sayaka any harm, why would she do all that and then return the soul gem to her?
Reckoner argued that while Homura was willing to discreetly kill Sayaka, she didn't want Sayaka to die by Madoka's hands, as that could cause Madoka incredible guilt (which Kyubey could then exploit to get her to contract with him).


Honestly, I hope that Reckoner is wrong in his arguments here, but his case was compelling enough for me to consider it.
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Old 2011-02-11, 20:00   Link #99
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Two conversations between Homura and Kyoko according to gg subs...


During the DDR scene...

Kyoko: So what about that Sayaka? She's going to butt in again if we don't do anything about her.

Homura: I want this done as quietly as possible. Don't do anything. I'll handle it myself.

(that came across to me like two mafia members talking about how best to 'whack' someone )
This could mean many things, but I think what Homura meant to say was to prevent Sayaka from pulling any rash actions and getting herself killed by fighting Kyoko at her state. Besides, if Homura killed Sayaka even without Madoka's knowledge, 2 things might occur in this situation. One in which word will probably reach Madoka's ears and she will lose all hope she had for Homura and try to get at the person who killed her best friend. Or two, Madoka will take Sayaka's responsibility as a magical girl and deal with things herself. Sayaka is a real important figure to Madoka's development as a magical girl.

Quote:
Later on, during the Kyoko/Sayaka confrontation where they were about to fight... strongly implied that it would be a fight to the death, too...

Homura: We discussed this. You're not supposed to do anything.

Kyoko: Your plan's too slow! Besides, we're all ready to fight!

Homura: Then I'll fight her. Stay put this time.


Now I'd like to think that Homura was just BSing Kyoko in both of these instances, and had no intention of killing Sayaka. But Reckoner suggested otherwise on the Episode 6 thread in a debate with me. I can try to find his specific posts if anybody wants to see them.
That would be good to see what Reckoner planned out from that conversation.

Quote:
Reckoner argued that while Homura was willing to discreetly kill Sayaka, she didn't want Sayaka to die by Madoka's hands, as that could cause Madoka incredible guilt (which Kyubey could then exploit to get her to contract with him).

Honestly, I hope that Reckoner is wrong in his arguments here, but his case was compelling enough for me to consider it.
Ok this sounds completely reasonable, good catch by Reckoner here. Since Madoka would have been feeling quite guilty killing her best friend by her own hands, she will take the responsibility that Sayaka used to have into her own hands making up a wish and forming a contract with Kyuube.
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Old 2011-02-11, 20:06   Link #100
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Madoka would have felt guilt either way if Sayaka died. Of course it is worse if Madoka herself did it, but it wouldn't have changed the fact that she would most likely step up anyway. And that's not something that Homura wants, hence why I still strongly believe that Homura's intent was not to kill Sayaka. Madoka's mother's advice would have been stretched into a farer horizon where Syaka's death ultimately became the "mistake" and her actions would eventually lead to a greater outcome;... probably not.
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