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Old 2011-02-12, 04:21   Link #221
Mentar
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
I was initially curious about one thing: If QB is impartial regarding the relative lack of civility between MGs and, all things being equal, doesn't concern himself with whatever internal bickering the current stable of MGs have, then why warn Madoka of Sayaka being in danger? Homura does have a point that Sayaka is more or less inefficient at what her job, and she did just fail to track down a familiar earlier that day, but if there's one thing QBs consistent at it's that he's being strangely considerate at warning Madoka regarding her friends.
I don't see anything strange here. QB has consistently led uncontracted girls into dangerous situations, and then used the present danger as leverage for yet another contract pitch. It's called "creating opportunities" in salestalk.

Quote:
QB does go through whole lengths to recruit warriors for this war, but after getting them he seems more content with unleashing the hounds of war and letting them do as they please. He gives them access to power but takes no controls nor responsibility for who they fight and how they fight.
He doesn't care about the "state of the war" or the well-being of the MGs or anything. He's merely interested in contracting more MGs, and then sending them off to harvest Grief Seeds for him to devour.

Quote:
So if he's willing enough to break his usual protocol for Madoka's sake and seems to actively try to ensure that Madoka at least remain in some consistent mental state, then this is enough to strongly suggest that he's after Madoka not simply due to her "power", but because she serves a special function no other MG can serve. At this point only QB knows what that is.
I think that for QB, it's currently Madoka's potential that he finds so appealing. The one I believe knows best what Madoka is capable of is Homura, which is why she's fixated on her.
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Old 2011-02-12, 04:22   Link #222
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Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
I find the point about keeping Madoka in some consistent mental state very interesting. In episode 6 when she finally seems to calm down after having a talk with her mother, QB visits her and then at the confrontation he tells her that she just threw her best friend off a bridge .
Well to be fair I doubt he knew she'd take the seed and try to destroy the damn thing. She treasures her friends, and QB knows this enough to use it as a point to keep her in check.

Incidentally, even though it was a dumbass move in retrospect since she sort of took her parents advice to the extreme, this was probably the first time Madoka was proactive regarding the entire growing issue rather than being just a bystander to the MGs doing their thing. Then again she almost killed her best friend in ignorance, so it does show a lot of how mere mortals could be considered ignorant and powerless, though MGs seem to be as ignorant as she is in the truth regarding the seeds.
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Old 2011-02-12, 04:32   Link #223
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Trouble is, the deeds, being behaviors, are more observable, while the mental state, intention, are not. Even with that, I have lamented that our observations are insufficient to be frank of Kyubey. I am actually forcing myself with a moral nihilist outlook regarding him at the moment.

Madoka did stumble upon the most significant find in the last 2 episodes. If one is a utilitarian, she has done incredible goods and her actions can be overlooked I suppose. Personally, I am too bewildered to even have a side on this...
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Old 2011-02-12, 04:36   Link #224
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Well to be fair I doubt he knew she'd take the seed and try to destroy the damn thing. She treasures her friends, and QB knows this enough to use it as a point to keep her in check.

Incidentally, even though it was a dumbass move in retrospect since she sort of took her parents advice to the extreme, this was probably the first time Madoka was proactive regarding the entire growing issue rather than being just a bystander to the MGs doing their thing. Then again she almost killed her best friend in ignorance, so it does show a lot of how mere mortals could be considered ignorant and powerless, though MGs seem to be as ignorant as she is in the truth regarding the seeds.
That's true. I think Kyubey's setup would have been meant to push her into a stressful corner again regardless. If we go back to the earlier episodes, he's gone from simply extolling what a great MG she would become to telling her it's up to her great potential to save Sayaka in her time of need. In that respect, Madoka will constantly be under that pressure and even if she isn't able to save Sayaka, Kyubey will probably find another venue to pressure her until she breaks.
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Old 2011-02-12, 05:11   Link #225
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I don't see anything strange here. QB has consistently led uncontracted girls into dangerous situations, and then used the present danger as leverage for yet another contract pitch. It's called "creating opportunities" in salestalk.



He doesn't care about the "state of the war" or the well-being of the MGs or anything. He's merely interested in contracting more MGs, and then sending them off to harvest Grief Seeds for him to devour.



I think that for QB, it's currently Madoka's potential that he finds so appealing. The one I believe knows best what Madoka is capable of is Homura, which is why she's fixated on her.
1. Yes but for reasons that are slowly being uncovered, she gives Madoka a special degree of attention she doesn't give anyone else. He has actually stopped giving the sales pitch to Madoka when she's in danger. He's now pitching when someone she cares about is in danger or after the fact. He's no longer resorting to putting her in direct harm to contract her because he now knows it doesn't work, which means he's shifted gears and tactics, rather than simply giving up and moving on which is his likely method for other girls, which again shows that there's something about Madoka than sheer power.

2. His neutrality and general lack of affect may be more than not caring though. As was brought up previously, I suspect that given his speech at the end he may be right is saying that he doesn't understand human emotion because he doesn't have any. Perhaps this is his "nature", that he does not possess any of the sort of emotion that describes humans. He was created without the capacity for human emotion, and likely he was never crafted from a human in the first place, which also accounts for the poker face he always shows whatever the situation.

At this point I no longer believe in Madoka's potential. It's no longer a vague possibility but a definite capacity: there is something definitely there that will manifest when she gets contracted. This quality is no longer a matter of if, but a matter of when.
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Old 2011-02-12, 05:31   Link #226
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MeoTwiter5, the moment of QED on Madoka having potential was frankly when Kyubey conveyed to Sayaka that she really is that powerful. We can literally expect that Kyubey is testing for the right catalyst to sped the reaction. The moment of combustion will be spectacular.

I do find interesting that Kyubey, despite having observed human, has yet gone beyond that of behavioral observations. I suppose we are actually heading the direction of mind philosophy when we muse about Kyubey's own mind, and not that of the psychological mechanisms in Kyubey.

@Decagon: This makes me pull my hair as when we try to simulate Kyubey's perspective and his reasoning, we use human metrics. If we cannot even adequately apply the framework of social-path universally, what then with Kyubey? In comparison, the way how Madoka perceives the issue at hand is more tangible for us and not nearly so foreign.
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2011-02-12 at 06:01.
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Old 2011-02-12, 05:45   Link #227
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Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
Trouble is, the deeds, being behaviors, are more observable, while the mental state, intention, are not. Even with that, I have lamented that our observations are insufficient to be frank of Kyubey. I am actually forcing myself with a moral nihilist outlook regarding him at the moment.
I haven't had a psych class in years, so anyone out there feel free to stab at this. Since Mami's death, I believe it is fair to assess that Madoka has been experiencing PTSD and remaining near Sayaka, who has committed to her self-assigned role as Mami's successor, is preventing her from any hope of coping. Just by being near Sayaka and the life-threatening situation Sayaka faces would serve to reinforce the trauma and anxiety Madoka feels since she is in the same, powerless position she was when she and Sayaka accompanied Mami. Of consideration is her breakdown when eating breakfast, and the anxiousness and almost hysterical fits she has when talking with Homura in ep 4 and 5. Considering PTSD can take months or years to fade, Madoka's mental wellbeing is in a rather precocious state. Having opened up with her mother, she was able to fine some calm, but Kyubey getting her and bringing her to another situation where the very real risks she encountered yesterday would occur again probably prompted her rather irrational response of taking the gem and discarding it rather than a more passive action.

To tie this to Kyubey, he is providing suggestions to her while she is in a very vulnerable state, increasing the burden on her and compounding her stress and fatigue. For people who have used the sexual predator analogy, his approaching her now is like a predator who is openly stalking someone who has been victimized (referring to her trauma over Mami's death) already. Of course a more neutral perspective would say that he is doing nothing more than what he has been consistently doing--single-mindedly prodding potential MGs to become MGs. What I find concerning is that he can recognize distress when he notes how girls have reacted to the soul gem details but he claims not to understand it. This indicates he is a creation unable to process emotion or he is a psychopath; of note perhaps is that psychopathy arises from genetic or a combination of genetic and environmental factors. As he has displayed jubilance and distress in his tone of voice before in different situations, I would think his inability to be empathetic suggests it is the latter.

In this case, I think the question should be whether or not he is mentally capable of processing that he is doing harmful or evil acts. In real life, criminal psychopathy is already a contemptuous mental health issue.
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Old 2011-02-12, 09:10   Link #228
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Who is abandoning anyone?[1] You have a choice: let the witches prey upon humans unmolested, or have girls become MG's in order to fight them. Which do YOU pick? And note that this is a question that a lot of the "Kyube is evil!" crowed doesn't want to answer, let alone face.



*sigh* Godwinned another thread.[2] I usually hate the guy, but he's right about every thread eventually coming up with Hitler and the Nazi's.

In any event, your analogies aren't quite accurate. Hitler did bring Germany out of it's depression, which was good, but he did that by attacking neighbors. There were other ways to accomplish the goal, but in Madoka, we only know of one way. And also, Germany were aggressors, taking their prosperity at the expense of people who didn't deserve it. So they would correspond to the witches, since they are the aggressors and taking their prosperity from humans who don't deserve it. In short, are you with the witches/nazis, or against them?[3]


No, he wasn't. He was all about wealth and power to himself. Also, he was paranoid as hell. If you're trying to equate Stalin with Kyube, it won't work. Kyube is currently defending humanity. Stalin ruled with an iron fist for the benefit of himself and his cronies, actively hurting and killing humanity in the process. Kyube isn't killing anyone; he's saving lives.[4]

You might wanna think that over a bit more. You really wanna argue that saving human lives isn't a good cause? You wanna tell me that letting innocent humans suffer is somehow desirable?[5]



You are partially correct; war does corrupt. But that's the nature of war. Our own troops committed horrible atrocities during WW2, but I bet you'd still regard them as the good guys[6]. Would you rather have them play all nice, and risk losing the war to the Germans/Italians/Japanese?


Seems pretty clear cut to me. Either one calls Kyube evil for creating our only line of defense against witches, a very clear threat. Or one grows up and realizes that sometimes some morally gray things might need to be done in a war, because if we do nothing, then we let people we care about suffer and die.[7]

Trying to pretty it up and confuse the issue with morality is simply word play designed to distract from the issue. People ARE dying. What do you propose we do about that?[8]
1. Sorry, perhaps my wording wasn't quite right. I wasn't referring to any'one', I was referring to the ideal morality. Does it really justify abandoning morality altogether because such ideals rarely take hold in reality? Does it sound right to you letting the fate of humanity be shouldered on little girls who are barely past puberty? Granted, I would agree if there really isn't any other way, but not without feeling regret and sorry for having to make that choice.

2. Perhaps because I know that famous quote and I intentionally kept it that way? Though......

....3. That didn't actually end up good for me . You are right about this and I'm definitely not on the side of the witches. However, I still can't make up any other better analogy for the situation we have. Though, do I sense a hint of agreement in you regarding the 'evil people doing good' part or is it just me?

4. Let's just say that I agree with this. I know that what he's doing is ultimately good for humanity as a whole, but the way he is doing it isn't pretty and that's what some people can't stand, and that is just part of being human. I have mentioned this to you before, right?

5. Of course I recognize it a good cause, my phrase didn't invalidate that QB could be considered evil, while ultimately doing good. It just shows that good people are capable of evil and evil people are also capable of good. Perhaps you might understand it more if you see it from the lawful-chaotic scale of the original D&D alignment and the modified version.

Just my opinion, I do think that in reality, good people tend to be on the short end of the straw. Perhaps that's why not many people strive to be good?

6. I would if I was on this side. I might not think so if I was on the other side. "War doesn't determine who is right, only who is left."

7. I agree. Though, it might be a little too much for some. You are free to have your own standard values and morality. All I'm asking you is acknowledge that there are some people who just can't stand the ugliness of it. You shouldn't prod people like that more than you have to, only to prove your point to them. This goes both ways actually.

8. I just now imagined what would happen to you if you live in vault 11 from Fallout New Vegas
hint: it's a joke, don't take this seriously.

On a more serious note, please note that your "the end justifies the means" attitude is yet another form of wordplay. Some people might actually prefer the extinction of human race rather than having to let innocent little girls suffer instead. Are these people evil for pursuing happiness for those little girls? Those 'good' people might not outright prefer extinction to the girl's salvation, but those 'good' people will search for alternatives, however futile.
In the end, perhaps it is really all about one's ego?

----------

You are fascinating, Kaijou. It's the first time for me to actually converse with someone so detached from common values and morals. I hope you will let me hear more of your thoughts in the future.
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Old 2011-02-12, 12:18   Link #229
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
At this point I no longer believe in Madoka's potential. It's no longer a vague possibility but a definite capacity: there is something definitely there that will manifest when she gets contracted. This quality is no longer a matter of if, but a matter of when.
Well, I always thought that way, since episode 3 at least, when it was revealed there was something special about her. In any case, I think the real question is, whatever capacity Madoka has, is it something good, or is actually very very bad??

I mean, there's a reason Homura is so determined in preventing Madoka's "awakening", and at this point I'm starting to believe it's not only for Madoka's own sake....
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Old 2011-02-12, 13:13   Link #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
Even if the very name of our furry fellow can be penned as '九尾', Kaijo's own caveat in prior post must be misquoted as a disclaimer; a cake may be just a cake. For all intents and purposes however, this mythical beast which has been invoked that allegedly contributed the fall of the Shang Dynasty in China as it masqueraded as a beauty and enticed a corrupted son of heaven, can even be... sadistic and malicious. Maybe quite humane in spectrum of behavior.
It may be part of Gen's ploy to merely cast Kyube in the light that he is somewhat similar to a kitsune, and not an actual kitsune. But that shadow of multiple tails when he turned Sayaka into an MG... that can't be just coincidence. It was very deliberate. What that means, however, is up for debate.

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I don't see much movement in either direction, except that the more we learn about the workings of QB and the racket, the clearer it becomes what a sucker the girls have been played, and that QB willingly withheld critical information from them pre-contract.
And this, folks, is what logical people like to call a good example of confirmation bias. No matter what we learn, he'll stick to what he already believes to be true. Rather than start with the facts and arrive at a conclusion, he starts at a conclusion and jams facts around it. I've never had much luck budging someone from such an entrenched position. Indeed, scientific studies show that once someone has a viewpoint, contradictory information merely makes them cling to their viewpoint even more.

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One group - I call them the QB apologists

And finally, one group - I call them the QB moralists
It's scary sometimes, how when you watch Fox news and break down the terminology they use, in order to pain the sides in the colors you want... and then you see them here. You tag your opponents as apologists or deniers, because those have some negative qualities. You paint your own side as moralists, because the implication is that the other side lacks morals and only your side has them.

They are loaded terms, and it's amusing how often humans pull them out in order to make their side look good, while denouncing everyone else who thinks different. Mentar has me on ignore, so to everyone else, I'll say I don't disagree that Mentar's position could be the correct one. My problem is the way he presents himself... and I'm not the only one. So to those that have sent me messages thanking me for what I am doing, you're welcome. You aren't alone, so feel free to speak up.

My viewpoint may not be the correct one, either. So if future evidence shows me differently, I'll correct myself.

Quote:
So, storywise there's not really much movement here. The more we learn about QB's racket, the more the apologists come under pressure. .
On the contrary, as several people have pointed out, more and more people are opening their minds to the idea that reality is ugly, and sometimes you have to do dirty things. Or maybe they just don't want to find themselves on the sides of the witches; you know, the beings that inducing people to commit mass suicide. I can't stomach that, but apparently some can.

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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
1. Sorry, perhaps my wording wasn't quite right. I wasn't referring to any'one', I was referring to the ideal morality. Does it really justify abandoning morality altogether because such ideals rarely take hold in reality? Does it sound right to you letting the fate of humanity be shouldered on little girls who are barely past puberty? Granted, I would agree if there really isn't any other way, but not without feeling regret and sorry for having to make that choice.
I told you, I'm a coldly logical person, heh. Not many people really understand what that means. But to answer your questions: Keeping one's morals is an idealistic stance. It would be great if we could keep them regardless of circumstance, but reality isn't idealistic. By all means, stick to them as much as you can, but be flexible.

And no, it doesn't sound right to me for these young girls to be our only defense. I would love if there was another way. But again, reality means there isn't always a perfect solution to a problem, and sometimes you do have to dirty your hands to get things done, and protect the greater good.

You know why people do bad things? Because the short term effect is good. It's not often someone can sacrifice the short term in order to have something better in the long term. Too often, someone will sacrifice the long term for the short term. If you do that, you have no future.

Quote:
....3. That didn't actually end up good for me . You are right about this and I'm definitely not on the side of the witches. However, I still can't make up any other better analogy for the situation we have. Though, do I sense a hint of agreement in you regarding the 'evil people doing good' part or is it just me?
Not sure I exactly understand what you're saying, but I'll take a stab. Yes, evil people can do good, and sometimes that still isn't a good thing. I get what you're trying to say; Hitler did a lot of good bringing Germany up... but that came at the expense of too much evil *and* there were other ways to go about doing it. That is ultimately the test: Is there another way? Is what we're doing generating more evil than good? In Germany's case, it was still ultimately bad. In Kyube's case, it is still ultimately good.

We have a witch problem and only Kyube's MG's can deal with them. To sit back and do nothing would invite more human suffering and death. That is unacceptable to me.

Quote:
4. Let's just say that I agree with this. I know that what he's doing is ultimately good for humanity as a whole, but the way he is doing it isn't pretty and that's what some people can't stand, and that is just part of being human. I have mentioned this to you before, right?
I don't think so, but you have now, heh. You phrase it well, much better than some here have. Yes, I can agree that what he is doing isn't pretty and morally questionable. Some term this outright evil. However one looks at it, it is currently necessary. So it is easy to hate someone doing dirty things to protect us, as long as we can sit back comfortably and enjoy that protection, not having to dirty our own hands.

So, in one respect, Gen is doing a good job here: he's making us feel uncomfortable. Some people are dealing with that discomfort by refusing to even think about or consider it. But there are still quite a few like you who can open your mind to it, and think in new ways.^^

Quote:
7. I agree. Though, it might be a little too much for some. You are free to have your own standard values and morality. All I'm asking you is acknowledge that there are some people who just can't stand the ugliness of it.
I have no problem with people who think the situation is ugly. But it reeks of "high horse" morality to judge and condemn Kyube when what he's doing is the only way we currently know how to protect ourselves. No one likes self-righteous assholes.

Rich Person: "You thief! You steal what rightfully belongs to other people! Have you morals?"
Poor thief: "Nope. Can't afford 'em."

It's easy to be self-righteous when you aren't being forced into a situation. Everyone that calls Kyube evil would do near the exact same thing in his shoes. Hell, I know I'd probably end up stealing and killing if I was pushed to the wall. None of us knows how we'd react when we get put into that situation; we like to think of ourselves as good and be able to stick to righteous morals. It's a very scary thought to know what we could become if our backs were to the wall.

Quote:
On a more serious note, please note that your "the end justifies the means" attitude is yet another form of wordplay. Some people might actually prefer the extinction of human race rather than having to let innocent little girls suffer instead.
Interesting. These people who would prefer the extinction of the human race... would they not be evil? To me, that's the greater evil; letting people suffer and die when there was a way to end it.

Quote:
You are fascinating, Kaijou. It's the first time for me to actually converse with someone so detached from common values and morals. I hope you will let me hear more of your thoughts in the future.
Like I said, I'm a coldly logical person, and that's a real hard viewpoint for people to shift to. If Kyube is as coldly logical as I believe he is, then I'm reading him perfectly. He's not weighed down by petty human values, but simply doing what he has to in order to ensure the survival of the human race. It's an interesting twist on the MG genre much like Mai HiME, where the powers aren't a blessing, but a curse. Many an MG has whined about wanting to be normal when it is very clearly shown that having those powers are cool.

Like Mai HiME, having the powers really is more of a curse than a blessing. Unlike Mai HiME and more like normal MGs, the powers are necessary for the survival of mankind. If the MG's don't stand up to fight (like the Sailor Senshi), we're all doomed. And yet, as far as we know, there is no real end to the fighting. Like Murder and theft, you can't really eliminate it, but it is something you must continually fight against.
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Old 2011-02-12, 14:43   Link #231
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In the end it's just turning evil to eliminate a far greater one, that Kyubey actions.
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Old 2011-02-12, 18:45   Link #232
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So, in one respect, Gen is doing a good job here: he's making us feel uncomfortable. Some people are dealing with that discomfort by refusing to even think about or consider it. But there are still quite a few like you who can open your mind to it, and think in new ways.^^
Eh, don't get me wrong, I was already like this long before I met you :3. The reason I fiddle around with you is because I consider your method of expressing your points is...let's just say it's not the best possible way.

Edit: and yes, as someone else mentioned in the forum, I think you tend to state some of your opinions and speculations such as if they were facts. You might not notice this yourself, but it's something to mind. I think nobody would get mad at you if you phrase your words right.

Quote:
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In the end it's just turning evil to eliminate a far greater one, that Kyubey actions.
There's a phrase "necessary evil", you know? (● ω ●)
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Old 2011-02-12, 19:19   Link #233
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Eh, don't get me wrong, I was already like this long before I met you :3. The reason I fiddle around with you is because I consider your method of expressing your points is...let's just say it's not the best possible way.

Edit: and yes, as someone else mentioned in the forum, I think you tend to state some of your opinions and speculations such as if they were facts. You might not notice this yourself, but it's something to mind. I think nobody would get mad at you if you phrase your words right.
Oh, I'll be the first to admit I could always state things better. As humans, we're not perfect, after all. However, I am always willing to clarify and talk things out so both sides understand. Well, as long as the other side is willing, and doesn't resort to the online equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and humming loudly.
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Old 2011-02-13, 03:50   Link #234
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Here's what QB did in ep 6. Be sure to rewatch scenes of interest for context--that's what the timestamp is for . Using gg's subs since it feels like someone kicked Nut's team in the sack this week. I've taken the liberty of replacing their instances of "Puella Magi" with "Magical Girl".
Spoiler for QB in ep6:
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Old 2011-02-13, 05:01   Link #235
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Btw, I've been wondering about the witches...

If we can consider QB as morally neutral because he has different standards from us humans, doesn't that mean we can also say the same for witches? They only do what they do to survive, after all (unless there's some revelation that the witches actually understand that what they're doing is evil).

Sometimes I think the whole situation is like controlling the bear population around a small village, with QB acting as the managing officer employing questionable methods in containing them. Not to mention that the villagers are already fed-up with the ruckus those bears made.
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Old 2011-02-13, 06:30   Link #236
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I meant to post this with the ep 6 summary, but I forgot. It's kind of easy to miss this since it's only like one frame.


Looks kind of like an eye to anyone else?
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Old 2011-02-13, 06:33   Link #237
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STOP KILLING OUR MAHOU SHOUJOS KYUUUUUUUUUUUUUUBBBBBBBBBBBBBBEEEEEEEEEEEYYY!!

Cute things really are the source of evil. Now I get freaked out everytime I see him.
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Old 2011-02-13, 12:24   Link #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
I meant to post this with the ep 6 summary, but I forgot. It's kind of easy to miss this since it's only like one frame.


Looks kind of like an eye to anyone else?
I think you're looking too much into it, but even if it was, what would it mean?

Although personally I think the tails and his name mean he is really a kitsune type of spirit, but that's the best I got.
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Old 2011-02-13, 21:03   Link #239
Avvesione
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
I meant to post this with the ep 6 summary, but I forgot. It's kind of easy to miss this since it's only like one frame.


Looks kind of like an eye to anyone else?
Thanks for the picture. I has the shape of an eye, but I don't think it's suppose to "be" an eye. It's interesting to note that the entirely of Kyubey's inside are black nothingness. Either that or it's a passage to hell or something. But still, that's pretty scary.
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Old 2011-02-13, 21:06   Link #240
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Luna stored a number of items, too, so it's not odd that magical animals have access to some kind of subspace pocket.
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