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Old 2011-02-16, 23:37   Link #281
Elestia
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Well, people have been happy to speculate that there MUST be more to Kyube so they can hate him more. There always has to be some catch, something that makes him totally evil, and gosh darn it, we'll find that evil angle somehow!

Except, if he is just an advanced creation, functioning much like a computer, then any evil intentions would have to be with whoever created him. So We just take all those half-brained assumptions and redirect them towards the creator!
I think it's cause there IS something more to him than meets the eye, or what he says. Cause frankly, he is a source of information to answering a lot of question regarding witches, the full extent of the contract details, and overall reasons to his motivation to create magical girls, since by now I think it's pretty obvious isn't to protect or save humanity from witches. There isn't a lot of explanations to say that he IS NOT evil, immoral, or amoral.
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Old 2011-02-18, 01:41   Link #282
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Just a quick reminder, as Homura pointed out in the 7th episode, Kyuube is not human, therefore saying he is cruel, evil, or whatever is pointless. Torturing Sayaka is not cruel if you have no capability of understanding the emotional impact; not warning, about the physical consequences of the contract is not manipulative, if you have no capability to comprehend the value most humans attach to it, etc.

That said, Kyuube fits the dualistic conception of the Antagonist, which is not evil (not human, no free will, blah blah), but rather personifies/reflects the notion that humans can be evil. In contrast pagan religion had a wider array of deities to reflect human behaviour, instead of this simplistic black & white depictions, but since Faust is a major inspiration for this show, we're stuck with it
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Old 2011-02-18, 02:00   Link #283
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Just a quick reminder, as Homura pointed out in the 7th episode, Kyuube is not human, therefore saying he is cruel, evil, or whatever is pointless.
Just wanted to point out she just said he wouldn't think he's cruel, not that she doesn't think so. Homura keeps her own point of view pretty much in secret, which is consistent with her characterization.
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Old 2011-02-18, 03:25   Link #284
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I realize it would ruin plot pacing, but it still makes me /facepalm that Kyoko, Madoka, nor Sayaka seem to have bothered staring at Kyube and asking, "Ok, what else haven't you told us because you thought it might distress us?"

Also, I'm a tad troubled with the relationship between Kyuube and Homura. Namely, Kyuube seemed to imply he used to tell the girls the truth about souls but then learned they don't take it well, so stopped. So, it almost seems like Homura must have contracted with him a long time ago. It's maddening that we have no idea how long Kyuube has been doing this. I know time travel is a very popular theory, and certainly he might not know who she is because she actually contracts with him in the future or something, but, he could have also forgotten her because she's from so long ago that he just doesn't remember. Certainly, Homura gave off this vibe like she'd been doing this for a very long time when she told Madoka she'd seen countless magical girls die. As magical girls don't seem to be all that numerous, that already implies she's been at it for a long time. I especially didn't like his statement in episode 6 as if he had just realized who Homura really was, though it was ambiguous enough that it's impossible to tell if it meant he finally remembered her or what.
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Old 2011-02-18, 10:27   Link #285
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So Kyuube is like a SPAM Bot that won't leave you alone asking if you want Product X until it finds the right time to sell it to you at a huge markup?
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Old 2011-02-18, 10:44   Link #286
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So Kyuube is like a SPAM Bot that won't leave you alone asking if you want Product X until it finds the right time to sell it to you at a huge markup?
and the price for the item is your soul and a lifetime of service.
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Old 2011-02-18, 11:18   Link #287
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And that really depends on whether it's worth it or not to you. Just make sure you cover all your bases and think very carefully when making a deal with QB.
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Old 2011-02-18, 11:23   Link #288
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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
Funny you bring that up with all the hot air being blown around here...

Anyway, my interpretation of all this bloviation is:

UNTIL THE ANIME ACTUALLY SHOWS IT, ANY SPECULATION IS JUST THAT: SPEC...U...LA...TION.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion (and speculation), but when the speculation gets presented as fact without the "facts" to back it up, then we have a problem.

Compare: Fanon vs. Canon


Agreed 100%!

Nothing wrong with speculation and such, but it is, after all, just speculation.

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So Kyuube is like a SPAM Bot that won't leave you alone asking if you want Product X until it finds the right time to sell it to you at a huge markup?


It's a good thing I had finished my coffee before reading this or else my keyboard and screen would be covered in it now.
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Old 2011-02-18, 21:39   Link #289
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QB would do well on Wall Street.
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Old 2011-02-18, 22:44   Link #290
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A friend of mine made the observation that Kyube could be much like Galactus, ie, part of the natural order of things. We may dislike him, but bad things happen when he's not around. Perhaps his role is more to help keep things in balance; without MG's witches would overrun the world.
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Old 2011-02-18, 22:46   Link #291
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Maybe they already have, it explains all the worlds troubles! Witches cause global warming! Bob Dole was wrong!
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Old 2011-02-18, 23:00   Link #292
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
A friend of mine made the observation that Kyube could be much like Galactus, ie, part of the natural order of things. We may dislike him, but bad things happen when he's not around. Perhaps his role is more to help keep things in balance; without MG's witches would overrun the world.
Hmm ... that's one angle to consider ... although for me it would be a little bit of a stretch to accept QB if he were portrayed to be on the same power scale.
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Old 2011-02-19, 00:22   Link #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
A friend of mine made the observation that Kyube could be much like Galactus, ie, part of the natural order of things. We may dislike him, but bad things happen when he's not around. Perhaps his role is more to help keep things in balance; without MG's witches would overrun the world.
Yeah, I've had much the same idea. I wasn't sure how commonly known Galactus is around these parts, so I didn't bring that up on the forum. But I definitely see similarities between Galactus and Kyubey. Indeed, one could even argue that Kyubey's slight degree of occasional dickishness is similar to that of Galactus... and the way Kyubey treats his magical girls is similar to how Galactus treats his heralds (right down to the manipulating and altering souls thing)...

So like yourself and your friend, I do see many parallels between Kyubey and Galactus.
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Old 2011-02-19, 01:22   Link #294
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Thankfully, Kyuube doesn't devour worlds, only grief seeds (maybe).
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Old 2011-02-19, 01:30   Link #295
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Kyuubey is so cute! i just wanna change my avater. how about this ?
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Old 2011-02-19, 02:04   Link #296
Sekirei07
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The problem is there is way to much negative to this whole balance idea.

If the MG are the balance to the Witches. Than isn't it unbalanced for what the MG have to pay to become MG? I mean yes they get a wish. But so far the positive side effects have been destroyed shortly after in every case we have seen.

Mami gets life > Mami gets death
Kyoko saves her family > Kyoko loses family
Sayaka heals love interest > rival appears to steal love interest

So don't the MG lose out in the end?
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Old 2011-02-19, 02:12   Link #297
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You know, after 6 episodes of watching Kyuube I have come to one conclusion that describes him perfectly: Kyuube is a dick.
After 7 episodes, I still stand by this statement.
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Old 2011-02-19, 03:29   Link #298
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nuuuu!....QB is not a dick! , he/she(?) is SATAN

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Old 2011-02-19, 10:13   Link #299
panzerfan
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I think this is how a relativist can argue against Kyubey on a factual basis. This is assuming that Kyubey's central belief is to get more magical girls to fight witches. A relativist is entitled to his/her feelings and attitudes, but she/he cannot use moral reasons in arguing against something. Voicing out conflict within one's belief system through one's own actions or faults within the facts themselves would be sufficient.

Granted, all of this would be moot if Kyubey's got no problem with those facts and as such operates on some other belief.

-He did not disclose in full the details of what entails in being a magical girl, despite having great understanding of how his audience may react when given the facts, and then he moves on to solicit them into combat. This is very much troublesome as he did not inform, to the best of his ability, of the entire situation to those that are entering into a pact with him. This is detrimental to the operational efficiency of the magical girls. This is a form of willful negligence on his part, and as such runs against his own goal to have increasingly number of magical girls to fight witches.

-He does not participate in conflict resolution between magical girls when the magical girls do indeed have a common set of objectives, and if his primary responsibilities ought to recruit them to fight witches, he would have neglected his duties (assuming if they are to fight witches effectively by recruiting magical girls) by allowing war potential to be wasted in infighting. Merely acquiring more asset to offset losses cannot discount such an attitude on his behalf.

-(a rather weak argument here) For him to merely state that one must be a magical girl to interdict in the affair of magical girls can also be challenged by the fact that Kyubey himself is the arbiter for one being magical girl or not. He will need raise defense where he cannot be a sufficient substitute for a magical girl in order to justify him not taking any action to quell the affair of magical girls. Until he has actually done so, one would lean to that Kyubey possesses more than enough understanding and attributes to fit that of a magical girl himself so that he could realistically in his ability as an arbiter. He would be in violation of his own tenants if he does possess sufficient attributes to be counted as a magical girl.

assuming of course, that Kyubey's central belief is not in keeping more magical girls active, but merely to get more contracts, a relativist can use the fact that Kyubey has thus far acted against his own interest by overexposure of terms of agreement to Madoka as a case of willful neglect of his own core belief against him.
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2011-02-19 at 10:35.
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Old 2011-02-19, 10:57   Link #300
MeoTwister5
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Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
I think this is how a relativist can argue against Kyubey on a factual basis. This is assuming that Kyubey's central belief is to get more magical girls to fight witches. A relativist is entitled to his/her feelings and attitudes, but she/he cannot use moral reasons in arguing against something. Voicing out conflict within one's belief system through one's own actions or faults within the facts themselves would be sufficient.

Granted, all of this would be moot if Kyubey's got no problem with those facts and as such operates on some other belief.

-He did not disclose in full the details of what entails in being a magical girl, despite having great understanding of how his audience may react when given the facts, and then he moves on to solicit them into combat. This is very much troublesome as he did not inform, to the best of his ability, of the entire situation to those that are entering into a pact with him. This is detrimental to the operational efficiency of the magical girls. This is a form of willful negligence on his part, and as such runs against his own goal to have increasingly number of magical girls to fight witches.

-He does not participate in conflict resolution between magical girls when the magical girls do indeed have a common set of objectives, and if his primary responsibilities ought to recruit them to fight witches, he would have neglected his duties (assuming if they are to fight witches effectively by recruiting magical girls) by allowing war potential to be wasted in infighting. Merely acquiring more asset to offset losses cannot discount such an attitude on his behalf.

-(a rather weak argument here) For him to merely state that one must be a magical girl to interdict in the affair of magical girls can also be challenged by the fact that Kyubey himself is the arbiter for one being magical girl or not. He will need raise defense where he cannot be a sufficient substitute for a magical girl in order to justify him not taking any action to quell the affair of magical girls. Until he has actually done so, one would lean to that Kyubey possesses more than enough understanding and attributes to fit that of a magical girl himself so that he could realistically in his ability as an arbiter. He would be in violation of his own tenants if he does possess sufficient attributes to be counted as a magical girl.

assuming of course, that Kyubey's central belief is not in keeping more magical girls active, but merely to get more contracts, a relativist can use the fact that Kyubey has thus far acted against his own interest by overexposure of terms of agreement to Madoka as a case of willful neglect of his own core belief against him.
Then consider the following possibility: That in the first place, getting enough MGs to deal with the situation is NOT his goal. That his ultimate aim is not within the proliferation of MGs nor the eradication of Witches, but specifically in the conflict the arises between either side.

That in this case, his ultimate goal lies in said conflict's continuation, and it would be against his aims for the conflict to end with either side eradicating the other. The benefit he gets from all this lies in propagating the continuation of the fight between both sides, so he prudently does not directly allow MGs to gain the upper hand, nor does he allow witches to overrun the world.

That in the case of him willfully using methods that specifically cause a degree of hampering and limiting of the activities and effectiveness of MGs in order to limit their capacities but not enough to cause them to fail. In the same vein, he WANTS witches to continue existing and doing what they do best, but not so much as to allow them to overrun the world.

In other words he is neither against nor for witches or MGs. His agenda lies not in a specific faction but in the fight between specific factions. He propagates the fight by creating MGs, but what creates the witches? How does he make sure that witches continue to exist as to fulfill his goals?

This makes me believe that my prior belief may hold true: that witches come from the corruption of MGs. By not giving a hand to the MGs he contracts he, in some way, ensures that enough MGs become witches to continue the cycle.
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