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Old 2011-02-23, 18:34   Link #461
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
Manga confirmed that Kyuube is fairy. (not devil, witch or whatever.
The thing doesn't change is, he is still bitch.
Hey applejuice, are you sure this is from the Madoka manga? Some anon said it's more likely from the second or third chapter of Kazumi manga.

If that's the case, then chances are this isn't exactly canon, since the Kazumi manga is just a spin-off.
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Old 2011-02-23, 18:39   Link #462
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Wait something i just noticed...妖精 can also be translated as sprite as well so this means Kyuube could be any form of supernatural creature not just a fairy but a Elf, Pixie, or even a Gnome. This also means that the possibilities that he is under the orders of someone else can vary.
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Old 2011-02-23, 19:00   Link #463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Fairy can be demons, demoted angels, pagan deities, spirits of the dead, etc... there are so many different beliefs, it just makes QB's nature more ambiguous than it already was. In any case, I agree, he's still a bitch.
Japanese nuance of 'fairy' is a bit different, though. It's much limited in terms of meaning than western.
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Old 2011-02-23, 20:09   Link #464
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
Japanese nuance of 'fairy' is a bit different, though. It's much limited in terms of meaning than western.
Then again, this series is so full of reference to western concepts and literature (christianity, Faust, etc) that I seriously doubt the word "yousei" is meant to be taken solely on the context of its Japanese meaning. Just my two cents, but I think it keeps QB as a pretty ambiguous creature, and him being a demon is still a possibility.
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Old 2011-02-23, 20:16   Link #465
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Kyuubei Takes Akihabara

Check out the piece in Sankaku Complex (other articles NSFW). It shows how common images of Kyuubei have become in Akiba:





"So, how about making a contract with me."
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2011-02-23 at 21:21.
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Old 2011-02-23, 22:46   Link #466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
While Kyubey has been very meticulous in not overstepping his boundaries, I cannot help but feel some anger at his methods.
Okay, let me get this out of the way first. I think that Kyubey is a jerk and find that his methods are in bad form. I do however, think that people attribute him too much with things we don't actually know yet.

OKay, since we both have acknowledge the possibility of each other's scenario, I'll make an observation about where exactly our point of views clash (which may be obvious but, well, humor me please)

My scenario comes from the assumption that Kyubey is neutral. Therefore I take information as is with a need to provide the simplest rationale.

Your scenario comes from the assumption the Kyubey is evil. Therefore there is a need to add cruel intentions to all his actions.

Both are equally valid as of now (an there is even the possibility that both would be rendered dead wrong 13 hours from now, heh). Nevertheless, I hesistate to add even more interpretations when the bare bones already suffice to make the logic works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
Check out the piece in Sankaku Complex (other articles NSFW). It shows how common images of Kyuubei have become in Akiba:
<snip>
"So, how about making a contract with me."
Man, who in their right mind would buy those notebooks now?
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Old 2011-02-23, 23:14   Link #467
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My view of Kyubey has changed from episode to episode. At the beginning, I thought he was your typical helpless and innocent mascot. At the middle (episode 3-4), I thought there was something sneaky about him. Now, I think he is evil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
My scenario comes from the assumption that Kyubey is neutral. Therefore I take information as is with a need to provide the simplest rationale.
I hope not to offend you, but I think it is easier to argue that Kyubey is neutral. Your arguments are logically convincing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
Your scenario comes from the assumption the Kyubey is evil. Therefore there is a need to add cruel intentions to all his actions.
And now to offend everyone I was defending, including myself: I think it is easier to feel that Kyubey is evil. The ferret shows no emotions, which logically makes Kyubey neutral. But something about showing no remorse at torturing a young girl ignites flames within.

It is far more difficult to prove that everyone in the show is miserable because of Kyubey. I have to account for every single person Kyubey has met; if only one of those people are happy, then I lose. Then, I have to show that Kyubey's actions correlate with everyone's sadness. If my logic sucks, the argument gets less convincing. Finally, I have to prove that Kyubey had the intention to do those things, which by my definition would make Kyubey evil. If I cannot establish that link, then my position weakens greatly.

The majority of viewers label Kyubey as evil. They may not have any logical rationale in doing so, but I will struggle through pages of reasoning to create my own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
Both are equally valid as of now (an there is even the possibility that both would be rendered dead wrong 13 hours from now, heh). Nevertheless, I hesistate to add even more interpretations when the bare bones already suffice to make the logic works.
Of course, the most difficult position to argue is that Kyubey is good - that would be opposite of both my emotion and my reason. And that is why Urobuchi may choose to go down that path, to shock (troll) viewers in both categories.
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Old 2011-02-23, 23:43   Link #468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Of course, the most difficult position to argue is that Kyubey is good - that would be opposite of both my emotion and my reason. And that is why Urobuchi may choose to go down that path, to shock (troll) viewers in both categories.
I doubt it. Urobuchi wouldn't write a twist just to shock the audience. Even Mami's dead served to revert Madoka's values about magical girlhood, from being cool and wonderful to risking your life until you died all alone. Madoka changed because of this twist, to what extent we don't know, but she changed, that's a fact.

Urobuchi wouldn't make Kyubey neutral just to shock the audience. If he goes this path, which I seriously doubt, he'll do it because it's the best way to propel the story forward to its climax with the highest possible dramatic impact...

But I do believe he's the true antagonist, because the ominous feeling around him has increased so much that it would be a totally orgasmic climax having him as the "bad guy". I just can't believe Urobuchi would create this feeling just for it to be wasted.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-02-24 at 00:08.
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Old 2011-02-24, 00:03   Link #469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
The majority of viewers label Kyubey as evil. They may not have any logical rationale in doing so, but I will struggle through pages of reasoning to create my own.
All well and good. We have both posited own's fallability and acknowledged each other's possibility. All that's left is to agree to disagree until the show pull a nonsensical plot-twist, after which we would lambast it in unison. It shall be a momentous occasion fit for a celebration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
But I do believe he's the true antagonist, because the ominous feeling around him has increased so much that it would be a totally orgasmic climax having him as the "bad guy". I just can't believe Urobuchi would create this feeling just for it to be wasted.
I believe some of those ominous atmosphere could be attributed to Shinbou, also
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Old 2011-02-24, 00:08   Link #470
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
I believe some of those ominous atmosphere could be attributed to Shinbou, also
Of course, in the end what we're watching is Shinbo's vision of Urobuchi's story. But you know what I meant anyway.
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Old 2011-02-24, 00:15   Link #471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Of course, in the end what we're watching is Shinbo's vision of Urobuchi's story. But you know what I meant anyway.
Of course. Our first non-dream glimpse of him is of "a suspicious thing watching from the shadows", after all. And there seems to be an ample amount of backlighting when he's around.
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Old 2011-02-24, 00:37   Link #472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
But I do believe he's the true antagonist, because the ominous feeling around him has increased so much that it would be a totally orgasmic climax having him as the "bad guy".
I strongly beg to differ. For an awful lot of viewers, it would be horrifically predictable. It would be such an incredibly cheap, easy way out at this juncture.

It would also completely dash any and all sense of moral ambiguity in this anime, and threaten to negate much of its charcter depth and complexity.


Quote:
I just can't believe Urobuchi would create this feeling just for it to be wasted.
The feeling isn't wasted at all if it's used as a very effective means of misdirection to set up a surprising ending.
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Old 2011-02-24, 00:47   Link #473
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The feeling isn't wasted at all if it's used as a very effective means of misdirection to set up a surprising ending.
With that much of misdirection an ending that surprising would be an asspull IMO. Foreshadowing exists for a reason, and there's a freaking amount of it here.

Anyway, let's just agree to disagree if you will. This is my opinion and isn't going to change unless the series disproves me.
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Old 2011-02-24, 00:53   Link #474
Deconstructor
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I do not think Urobuchi can lose in this situation...

The story so far has caused an overwhelming number of fans to portray Kyubey as evil. Is he a devil, an angel, or both?

As long as Urobuchi reveals the truth with large, dramatic, and expressive plot, everyone will be pleased.
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Old 2011-02-24, 01:02   Link #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
With that much of misdirection an ending that surprising would be an asspull IMO.
Not if the surprising ending is still logically consistent with the plot events that came before.

Also, Kazu-kun, if you're right, doesn't this make Shinbo's comment here nonsencial?:

Once it ends, I want [the viewers] to watch again one more time. I want to make it a show that you can enjoy watching 12 episodes straight. There might even be some parts that is not understandable without watching it that way. I think it is fun if you watch it once you know how it ends. You can empathize the characters that way, and you can discover something new by watching it from different viewpoint. - Akiyuki Shinbo

If we get an extremely predictable ending (one that a lot of people perceived from miles away) then why would people need to re-watch the anime again in order to truly understand it? Don't you think Shinbo's statement here strongly suggests that we're not going to get a predictable ending?


Quote:
Foreshadowing exists for a reason, and there's a freaking amount of it here.
The foreshadowing is little more than "bad vibes" stuff. And while there is a lot of that "bad vibes" stuff, it's the exact sort of stuff that can easily be discounted if the plot goes in a different direction.


Quote:

Anyway, let's just agree to disagree if you will.
Well, I'm always willing to accept an agree to disagree. But out of sheer curiosity, I would like to see your take on Shinbo's quote there. It really seems to go way against how you think this anime will end, imo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
As long as Urobuchi reveals the truth with large, dramatic, and expressive plot, everyone will be pleased.
You can't speak for everyone. I, for one, will not be pleased if this anime goes the way Kazu-kun thinks it will.
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Old 2011-02-24, 01:22   Link #476
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Also, Kazu-kun, if you're right, doesn't this make Shinbo's comment here nonsencial?:

Once it ends, I want [the viewers] to watch again one more time. I want to make it a show that you can enjoy watching 12 episodes straight. There might even be some parts that is not understandable without watching it that way. I think it is fun if you watch it once you know how it ends. You can empathize the characters that way, and you can discover something new by watching it from different viewpoint. - Akiyuki Shinbo
Many possibilities. For example, if Homura's motivations are not revealed completely but only hinted at, we'll need to re-watch and pay more attention to get the meat of it. The same with Kyubey. What Shinbo is saying here will apply whether Kyubey is the antagonist or not. It doesn't change anything IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
You can't speak for everyone. I, for one, will not be pleased if this anime goes the way Kazu-kun thinks it will.
Well, you can never please everyone.
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Old 2011-02-24, 01:27   Link #477
Deconstructor
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And things were starting to get boring...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Once it ends, I want [the viewers] to watch again one more time. I want to make it a show that you can enjoy watching 12 episodes straight. There might even be some parts that is not understandable without watching it that way. I think it is fun if you watch it once you know how it ends. You can empathize the characters that way, and you can discover something new by watching it from different viewpoint. - Akiyuki Shinbo

If we get an extremely predictable ending (one that a lot of people perceived from miles away) then why would people need to re-watch the anime again in order to truly understand it? Don't you think Shinbo's statement here strongly suggests that we're not going to get a predictable ending?
Ah, but a lot of people, including you, are predicting a "non-predictable" ending. Would that suggest that we are getting a predictable ending solely to make you watch the anime again in disbelief?

I pose this logic to suggest that using anything outside the anime can be misleading. On that same page, Urobuchi tweeted this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gen Urobuchi's Translated Tweet
So I thought it is bad if everyone can guess how the series will be because of me. As a troubleshooter, I tried to mislead everyone. But as you can see, it's ineffective.
You may suggest that Shinbo's quote is more credible than Urobuchi's tweet. Honestly, I think they are at roughly the same level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The foreshadowing is little more than "bad vibes" stuff. And while there is a lot of that "bad vibes" stuff, it's the exact sort of stuff that can easily be discounted if the plot goes in a different direction.
Logically, that's an extremely likely possibility. (If the anime does not abruptly end now, say...)
However, some people would take that as inconsistency, and some people do not like inconsistency. I understand why people would be disappointed if Kyubey turned out to be an angel in disguise, when he is so creepy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
You can't speak for everyone. I, for one, will not be pleased if this anime goes the way Kazu-kun thinks it will.
Well, you might say so to be consistent. But deep inside, I think you will enjoy the story if Urobuchi chooses to go straightforward.
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Old 2011-02-24, 01:32   Link #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Not if the surprising ending is still logically consistent with the plot events that came before.

Also, Kazu-kun, if you're right, doesn't this make Shinbo's comment here nonsencial?:

Once it ends, I want [the viewers] to watch again one more time. I want to make it a show that you can enjoy watching 12 episodes straight. There might even be some parts that is not understandable without watching it that way. I think it is fun if you watch it once you know how it ends. You can empathize the characters that way, and you can discover something new by watching it from different viewpoint. - Akiyuki Shinbo

If we get an extremely predictable ending (one that a lot of people perceived from miles away) then why would people need to re-watch the anime again in order to truly understand it? Don't you think Shinbo's statement here strongly suggests that we're not going to get a predictable ending?
I think Shinbo is saying to watch the characters carefully over the entire series. This entire deconstruction of the magical girls series focuses on the development of the characters in a way that no other predecessor before it has done before. Because we are more used to external forces driving the plot along, but instead we're being given advice to keep an a closer eye on the girls, their perspectives, and feelings.

And that is what we're doing. Mentar's predictions for the first couple of episodes went almost exactly according to his keen observation. The entire speculation threads are entirely filled with arguments and discussions based on our own interpretation of the episodes shown. And I personally do empathize with a lot of what the girls go through being thrown into such a grim and dark reality, and I do not judge the characters for their actions when they're faced with it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The foreshadowing is little more than "bad vibes" stuff. And while there is a lot of that "bad vibes" stuff, it's the exact sort of stuff that can easily be discounted if the plot goes in a different direction.
I disagree, we've been given a consistent bread crumb trail that all leads to one general theory. There has not been a lot contradictory evidence that meaningfully impacts the overall direction we've been culminating too. The only thing we have going against it is personal interpretations of what the evidence could mean.
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Old 2011-02-24, 01:46   Link #479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Many possibilities. For example, if Homura's motivations are not revealed completely but only hinted at, we'll need to re-watch and pay more attention to get the meat of it. The same with Kyubey. What Shinbo is saying here will apply whether Kyubey is the antagonist or not. It doesn't change anything IMO.
I disagree with you here, but I thank you for your response.


Quote:
Well, you can never please everyone.
Another question just out of curiosity... if Kyubey doesn't end up being the antagonist, do you think you'll be disappointed in the ending?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post

Ah, but a lot of people, including you, are predicting a "non-predictable" ending. Would that suggest that we are getting a predictable ending solely to make you watch the anime again in disbelief?
The thing with a highly predictable ending is that people have a tendency to interpret ongoing plot events with that highly predictable ending already in mind. For example, just look at all the people that are pretty much assuming:

1) Magical girls inevitably die or turn into witches.

2) Kyubey is an evil being carrying out an evil plot.


So, if these predictions hold true, nobody is really going to have to re-watch the anime again, filtering scenes through the new knowledge of these plot events. Because they're already filtering scenes through with these assumptions in mind.


Quote:


I pose this logic to suggest that using anything outside the anime can be misleading. On that same page, Urobuchi tweeted this:

So I thought it is bad if everyone can guess how the series will be because of me. As a troubleshooter, I tried to mislead everyone. But as you can see, it's ineffective.
I think that what Urobuchi meant by this is that he tried to make it seem like this would be a classic "rainbows and butterflies" magical girl anime. And, indeed, there were efforts to this effect, with SHAFT going so far as to even try to hide Urobuchi's involvement in the project.

Now, however, everybody knows that Madoka Magica will be a dark anime, particularly so for magical girl anime.

That's al I think that Urobuchi meant by that quote.


Quote:
You may suggest that Shinbo's quote is more credible than Urobuchi's tweet. Honestly, I think they are at roughly the same level.
I agree that Shinbo quotes and Urobuchi quotes are roughly on the same level of credibility when it comes to this anime.



Quote:
Logically, that's an extremely likely possibility. (If the anime does not abruptly end now, say...)

However, some people would take that as inconsistency, and some people do not like inconsistency. I understand why people would be disappointed if Kyubey turned out to be an angel in disguise, when he is so creepy...
I sincerely doubt he'll be an angel in disguise. However, I think that he could be a largely emotionaless morally netural character though. That alone is still creepy to a lot of people.


Quote:
Well, you might say so to be consistent. But deep inside, I think you will enjoy the story if Urobuchi chooses to go straightforward.
No, I won't, and honestly, I highly resent you implying that I'd lie simply to appear consistent.

Why is it so hard for you to accept that some people don't want a "straightforward" ending?
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Old 2011-02-24, 01:46   Link #480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Ah, but a lot of people, including you, are predicting a "non-predictable" ending. Would that suggest that we are getting a predictable ending solely to make you watch the anime again in disbelief?
Well, I argue that generally predicting that the ending would be non-predictable isn't actually in the same category as predicting a specific ending that is predictable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
However, some people would take that as inconsistency, and some people do not like inconsistency. I understand why people would be disappointed if Kyubey turned out to be an angel in disguise, when he is so creepy...
Ah, but plot twists are specifically crafted to contrast with viewers' feelings. That's why it's a twist, and people generally like plot twists. It's the inconcistencies in logic that we should be wary of.
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