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Old 2011-02-24, 04:49   Link #501
totoum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
The show built on the expectation that Kyubey is evil so much (with ominous lighting, even) that when come the big reveal and it turns out that he really is evil, it'd be kinda unexciting.
Except that Dharma was talking about the script,and that it'd be bad scriptwriting,but "ominous lighting" has nothing to do with the script,it's the direction.Same with a lot of the foreshaddowing.All the faust references?Not in the script,they were thrown in by the anime staff.QB's never changing expression?not in the script (the manga based on the same script has him changing expressions,even the original chara designs don't have him with those creepy red dot eyes).All the weird lighting like QB having " 9 tails" is not related to scriptwriting.

So if you've got a problem with QB being evil as being too obvious,take it up to the director.

Though even if you do,I'd llike to argue that the faust references are hardly obvious,if you're marathoning this show on your own without outside knowledge,you'd have to know german to pick up the one on the wall,and there's no way you'd know what all the things written in cypher language are also mostly faust references.We know this because a few people got really into it and figured it out,but it's not what you'd expect casual viewers to do.
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Old 2011-02-24, 05:26   Link #502
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Except that Dharma was talking about the script,and that it'd be bad scriptwriting,
Er, I only used "ominous lighting" as an offside remark (that's why it's in brackets). Furthermore, I hardly think that him not changing expression is an obvious sign of evil. I didn't even think of Faust when I typed those. And I know not about this "9 tails" thing (when is this?).

I was mainly referring about how he generally comes off as amoral and remorseless, the whole Soul Gem thing, the persistence in recruiting in what could be viewed as inappropriate situations, the fact that he bids adieu to Sayaka+Madoka only to suddenly appears again, the fact that those he recruits are kinda screwed up in life. Those sorts of things.

On a side note, I need to insist that the scriptwriter needs to have some degree of control towards his character's expression (and intonation, too). I mean... whether the "Sayaka torture scene" is played with Kyubey having a sneer, expresionless, or remorseful would change its nuance a great deal, you know.
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Last edited by Scrooge McDuck; 2011-02-24 at 05:39.
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Old 2011-02-24, 05:41   Link #503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
Er, I only used "ominous lighting" as an offside remark (that's why it's in brackets)

Sorry for the complete missunderstanding


As for the "9 tails",at the start of episode 5 when Sayaka is accepting her contract,at one point there's an overhead shot and the shaddows are done in such a way that it makes it look like QB has 9 tails,or so I've heard,I havn't counted them myself.
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Old 2011-02-24, 06:21   Link #504
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Scrooge McDuck, thank you, I understand both myself and Kazu-kun better because of your post

My problem with an evil QB is about if he is evil why don't tell us already? Only reason I can see is to have "the big reveal" Scrooge McDuck talking about. It may be intended for the girls instead of us, but then the girls will be looking too stupid for not noticing earlier. (But if they already noticed and plan his defeat right now... They looks to clever ) )

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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Jesus, can't you have a little more faith in Gen's writing?

I'll be frank here, QB being the minsunderstood good guy all along is the kind of cop out I expect to see in Nanoha, NOT in Madoka. Not like I imply that you said it but more because I keep hearing that suggestion regularly well enough to have my eyes roll.
Well, I have faith in people who have faith in Gen. Lemmings can't be wrong!
Just for clarification, it is joke, not sarcasm
I personally can't see QB as good guy. Just not so bad as to shoot on sight.
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Old 2011-02-24, 06:47   Link #505
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Originally Posted by Dharma View Post
(But if they already noticed and plan his defeat right now... They looks to clever ) )
Heh. Imagine them pulling a Batman Gambit.

Kyubey: Muhwahahaha! You fall into my trap, Homura!
Mami: No. You fall into our trap.
Kyubey: Mami!? But, I saw you...
Kyouko: Nah, I was Charlotte. The whole thing is like a big play to let your guard down.
Kyubey: Kyouko!? But we had a deal!
Kyouko: Sorry, little guy, they approached me first.
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Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-02-24 at 13:21.
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Old 2011-02-24, 09:39   Link #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
The show built on the expectation that Kyubey is evil so much (with ominous lighting, even) that when come the big reveal and it turns out that he really is evil, it'd be kinda unexciting. It'd be what most people expect. It'd be what some other people wish not to happen because of the obviousness. The former would not be surprised, and the latter's surprise would be along the line of "I can't believe they think this is a good idea".
Very well said. Kyubey turning out to be evil would have a very "meh" unexciting impact on me now. And "I can't believe they think this is a good idea" will be precisely my response (complete with a Kyon-style facepalm, in all likelihood ) in such a scenario. Now, if he's made a sympathetic antagonist that could be executed well, but I doubt that's what most of the "Kyubey is evil" camp are expecting anyway.


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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Jesus, can't you have a little more faith in Gen's writing?

I'll be frank here, QB being the minsunderstood good guy all along is the kind of cop out I expect to see in Nanoha, NOT in Madoka.
Who's the misunderestood good guy in Nanoha?

Fate (in the original Nanoha anime) and the Wolkenritter (in Nanoha A's) are not "misunderstood good guys", but rather "sympathetic antagonists". By the time they became actual "good guys" they were no longer "misunderstood".

A sympathetic antagonist is someone who is in an antagonistic role, but for highly sympathetic reasons. This character type is fairly common in magical girl anime.

A misunderstood good guy is somebody in a protagonist role (or at least someone who is generally supportive of the protagonists) but who employs highly questionable methods and/or has a personal style that causes him to come off as very shady and untrustworthy. Off the top of my head, I honestly can't think of many anime examples of the misunderstood good guy (which is a big part of the reason why I'd love for Kyubey to be one; he'd really stand out, even more than already does, in such a role).


Quote:
Not like I imply that you said it but more because I keep hearing that suggestion regularly well enough to have my eyes roll.
Well, hey, when I read people champion the idea of "Kyubey is evil", it frequently makes my eyes roll because it would be the most predictable thing since...

"Look! Up in the sky! It's a bird. No, it's a plane! No, it's..."

Ended with...

............
...........
..........
.........
........
.......
......
.....
....
...
..
.

"...Superman!"


(Also, note how that added space likely had the psychological effect of making the "Superman" reveal seem even more anti-climatic to you, as the long build-up creates dramatic tension for an epic out-of-the-ordinary reveal? Well, in my mind, that would be the effect of putting off a total "Kyubey is evil" reveal until the last or second last episode.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
Well, I think Kyubey being non-evil but amoral and efficient recuiter (for example) is already plenty disturbing and different from any other magical familiar out there.
Strongly agree. Well put.
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Old 2011-02-24, 13:26   Link #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
People's expectations might differ, true. But allow me to expound on what Dharma stated.

The show built on the expectation that Kyubey is evil so much (with ominous lighting, even) that when come the big reveal and it turns out that he really is evil, it'd be kinda unexciting. It'd be what most people expect. It'd be what some other people wish not to happen because of the obviousness. The former would not be surprised, and the latter's surprise would be along the line of "I can't believe they think this is a good idea".
To put a counter-example forth, Kyubey could be evil. But if Urobuchi takes evil in a surprising direction that the majority of us could have not seen coming, many of us would be pleased anyway.

I think you are more worried about Kyubey turning out to be a simplistic, stereotyped evil. Ex. Kyubey likes torturing little girls because it gives him enjoyment. We have seen that before; anyone could have thought of that.

Actually, I expect Kyubey to be a complex character. And if Kyubey turns out to be very one-dimensional, I would be disappointed and uninterested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
Of course, there's always the possibility of them playing it straight compounding with another plot element (heck, maybe like your whole "Kyubey is evil but fix everything and it's all just a test" scenario) that is written so awesomely awesome that it would make even the former pleasantly surprised and the latter also satisfied.
If anyone asks, I thought of it.
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Old 2011-02-24, 13:43   Link #508
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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
To put a counter-example forth, Kyubey could be evil. But if Urobuchi takes evil in a surprising direction that the majority of us could have not seen coming, many of us would be pleased anyway.
I actually agree. Like I stated in another post: I was hoping for a twist. Nonetheless, if it's a climax instead and it's executed well, I think I could live with that. While still hoping there'd be a twist of another form somewhere in the show.

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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
I think you are more worried about Kyubey turning out to be a simplistic, stereotyped evil. Ex. Kyubey likes torturing little girls because it gives him enjoyment. We have seen that before; anyone could have thought of that.
Nah, regardless of whether he's simplistic or complex, I want a plot progression that could make me notice things I could only see in retrospect when I rewatch the whole show some time in the future. The whole "building up evil to reveal evilness" thingie doesn't do that. But they could always do that to something else.

In any case, episode 8 is up and I think I have spoiled myself too much without actually looking within the spoiler tags, so I shall make a getaway from the forum until I actually watch the episode.
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Old 2011-02-24, 13:46   Link #509
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Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
I actually agree. Like I stated in another post: I was hoping for a twist.
That's ridiculous.

Do you think people enjoyed M. Night Shamayla's movies after the 100th "WHAT A TWIST" ?

The story and characters are executed so well, Urobuchi doesn't need to pull ridiculous headspinners out of his ass just to keep up the "lol twist" image that others casted onto him.

Plus we still go 4 more episodes to go.
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Old 2011-02-24, 13:58   Link #510
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That's ridiculous.

Do you think people enjoyed M. Night Shamayla's movies after the 100th "WHAT A TWIST" ?
Oh come on. I was hoping for a twist in this show that would surprise me. Were this an M. Night Shyamalan movie, I would almost be hoping that there's no twist because that would surprise me (or of course, a twist that is not so incredibly formulaic).

And you are taking it out of context, anyway. You need to read to the post I was referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishbait View Post
The story and characters are executed so well, Urobuchi doesn't need to pull ridiculous headspinners out of his ass just to keep up the "lol twist" image that others casted onto him.
Does Urobuchi has a "lol twist" image? I wouldn't know; I didn't even know about the guy before this show.

Also, I did say that I could live with well-execution. And a twist doesn't have to be ridiculously headspinning to be good (instead, more often than not, it needs to stay away from that).
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Last edited by Scrooge McDuck; 2011-02-24 at 14:09.
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Old 2011-02-24, 14:11   Link #511
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After the recent events of Episode 8, there are a couple questions plaguing my mind. I wonder if anybody here would like to take a stab at them...

Spoiler for Questions related to Madoka Episode 8 spoilers:



I have a couple ideas of my own here, but I'd lke to see fellow fan reaction before I share them.
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Old 2011-02-24, 14:31   Link #512
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Telling them would be a hit or miss. MGs don't turn into witches just by freaking out, it's the fact that they keep using up their magic. However, looking at the actual amount of witches, it's possible that freaking out does add to ignoring your SG darkening >by overusing magic<. Kyubei can't predict everything thus if he had for example told Mami after she was contracted, she might have simply accepted that fact unlike Sayaka and she would have been even more careful with her magic usage.
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Old 2011-02-24, 14:34   Link #513
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Telling them would be a hit or miss. MGs don't turn into witches just by freaking out, it's the fact that they keep using up their magic. However, looking at the actual amount of witches, it's possible that freaking out does add to ignoring your SG darkening >by overusing magic<. Kyubei can't predict everything thus if he had for example told Mami after she was contracted, she might have simply accepted that fact unlike Sayaka and she would have been even more careful with her magic usage.
And it looks like Sayaka's gem wasn't completely dark yet, but her utter despair was actually the final straw.
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Old 2011-02-24, 14:38   Link #514
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And it looks like Sayaka's gem wasn't completely dark yet, but her utter despair was actually the final straw.
That's true, it looks to me as though negative feelings >and< using magic are two facts that kind of feed each other, before ultimately turning into a witch. I wonder if it was possible for Sayaka to snap out of her emotional negativity if she had enough support. Basically, someone cheering her up. Maybe then it would have been possible to use a Grief Seed to escape the limit.
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Old 2011-02-24, 14:40   Link #515
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Telling them would be a hit or miss. MGs don't turn into witches just by freaking out, it's the fact that they keep using up their magic. However, looking at the actual amount of witches, it's possible that freaking out does add to ignoring your SG darkening >by overusing magic<. Kyubei can't predict everything thus if he had for example told Mami after she was contracted, she might have simply accepted that fact unlike Sayaka and she would have been even more careful with her magic usage.
Agreed, humans can be quite diverse in how they handle to the situation. If we take a look at how Kyoko managed to avoid despair, was because she accepted her situation and as Sayaka put it once "accepting it as punishment". That's the main point to why they diverged at the intersection.
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Old 2011-02-24, 14:44   Link #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanish View Post
Telling them would be a hit or miss. MGs don't turn into witches just by freaking out, it's the fact that they keep using up their magic. However, looking at the actual amount of witches, it's possible that freaking out does add to ignoring your SG darkening >by overusing magic<. Kyubei can't predict everything thus if he had for example told Mami after she was contracted, she might have simply accepted that fact unlike Sayaka and she would have been even more careful with her magic usage.
I see your point, and thanks for the reply.

However, Mami seemed to be in no danger of becoming a witch, and if we take her as the standard baseline, then she possibly never would have.
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Old 2011-02-24, 14:50   Link #517
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Hmm, if Kyube wants witches, and magical girls become witches, and they do that when they freak out... then why did Kyube stop Sayaka from freaking out last episode? She was angry and upset, but he calmed her down.
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Old 2011-02-24, 14:51   Link #518
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After the recent events of Episode 8, there are a couple questions plaguing my mind. I wonder if anybody here would like to take a stab at them...

Spoiler for Questions related to Madoka Episode 8 spoilers:



I have a couple ideas of my own here, but I'd lke to see fellow fan reaction before I share them.
Spoiler for thoughts:
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Old 2011-02-24, 14:55   Link #519
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1. If Kyube knows that girls freak out after being told of their soul/body situation, and he deliberately wants MG's to become witches, and they only turn into witches from breaking down, why doesn't he tell them after contracting?
Because it's better if nobody knows. If MGs knew that they're condemned to turn into witches, they would 1) be more careful not to overextend and 2) tell other contract candidates that they have been suckered into a death contract, thus eliminating his chances to convince them.

Quote:
2. What is Kyube getting out of all this? Why?
Well, you know my opinion. The Grief Seeds still contain the soul of the witch. By eating the Grief Seeds he is condemning the soul to hell. Why? Because he's a devil/demon. That's what they do: Tempt, corrupt and ultimately condemn souls.
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Old 2011-02-24, 15:23   Link #520
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I see your point, and thanks for the reply.

However, Mami seemed to be in no danger of becoming a witch, and if we take her as the standard baseline, then she possibly never would have.
You're welcome and yes, I think so, too.

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Hmm, if Kyube wants witches, and magical girls become witches, and they do that when they freak out... then why did Kyube stop Sayaka from freaking out last episode? She was angry and upset, but he calmed her down.
The main condition for the SG to get dirty is to use magic, not freak out. Negative emotions are an extra I believe, but not the deciding factor if we take a look at Kyouko's past situation which had probably an even worse impact.

And Kyubei's very actions were not a reason to calm down although Sayaka did. However, calming down doesn't mean you feel better or relieved. So if we assume that Kyubei is that much of a smartpunk and coordinator, it might've been just part of a scheme to drive Sayaka down further, which in the end happened anyway.

Alternatively, if we take the "he actually wanted to calm her down"-route which I personally doubt, as someone pointed out, storing/eating Grief Seeds may have some kind of significance to Kyubei so he at least wants MGs to fight witches for that purpose.
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