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Old 2011-02-24, 15:40   Link #521
Gimpy
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Hmm, interesting. I just find it a bit odd. Since witches make witches, it doesn't seem like there would be a need to turn magical girls into witches.
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Old 2011-02-24, 15:49   Link #522
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It's a bait and switch scam. MGs serve two functions at the same time: First, they harvest Grief Seeds for QB - and pollute them, before QB devours them. And when they have accumulated enough grief, or when they're simply unsuited for the prolonged stress a MG life puts on them, they turn into Witches themselves.

The beauty of this scam is that it's stable and self-regulating. No matter what the MGs do, QB wins. It's just like the Casinos win in Las Vegas: They don't need to do anything drastic. The _system_ works to their favor.
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Old 2011-02-24, 16:08   Link #523
Sol Falling
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Indeed. Or, alternatively you could also say: whatever QB and the MGs do, darkness wins. Whether QB creates magical girls or not, grief will be spread by the witches; even if he tries to curb their spread by letting MGs fight them, the MGs themselves create darkness by fighting and can fall if grief turns their wishes into curses.

(I think one of the implications of the "Darkness cannot be defeated by Darkness" tagline is that there is actually an ongoing attempt at doing so. If Darkness is merely feeding on Darkness, there doesn't exist any conflict there.)
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Old 2011-02-24, 16:17   Link #524
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lol I'm having a deja vu. It's like with Soul Eater's final boss (forgot name). The guy who is made of all the humanity's madness, and he can't be fought with madness, only with courage.
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Old 2011-02-24, 16:34   Link #525
Elestia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Indeed. Or, alternatively you could also say: whatever QB and the MGs do, darkness wins. Whether QB creates magical girls or not, grief will be spread by the witches; even if he tries to curb their spread by letting MGs fight them, the MGs themselves create darkness by fighting and can fall if grief turns their wishes into curses.

(I think one of the implications of the "Darkness cannot be defeated by Darkness" tagline is that there is actually an ongoing attempt at doing so. If Darkness is merely feeding on Darkness, there doesn't exist any conflict there.)
The only problem is that QB facilitates the system to continue and likely created the system in the first place so that the situation would be irreversible no matter how hard the MG's fight to eradicate the existence of the witches, it would be impossible to do so. He's not using darkness to fight darkness, he's using darkness to feed darkness.

So I don't know why you are putting QB in the same position as the MG's of "fighting darkness" when it isn't his intention to stop the darkness. He is the source of the darkness.
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Old 2011-02-24, 16:47   Link #526
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Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
So I don't know why you are putting QB in the same position as the MG's of "fighting darkness" when it isn't his intention to stop the darkness. He is the source of the darkness.
He just meant that Kyubey's magical girls can't defeat Kyubey's system, because they're part of the same darkness. I expect this to be true even in Madoka's case.

It means that in order for Madoka to become a true light and stop Kyubey's plan once and for all she needs to find an alternative way to fight without making a contract.

I already called it since episode 4 but now more than ever I think Madoka is going to become a magical girl without making a contract. I don't know how, but I'm pretty convinced it's going to happen.
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Old 2011-02-24, 18:36   Link #527
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Ah ok, my mistake.

Yeah I've had a suspicion that what qualifies magical girls to be a magical girl in the first place is that they had the ability to be "true" magical girls in the first place, that is, until QB started making contract with them.
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Old 2011-02-24, 19:32   Link #528
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I haven't seen episode 8, so if anything here contradicts episode 8, please tell me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Indeed. Or, alternatively you could also say: whatever QB and the MGs do, darkness wins. Whether QB creates magical girls or not, grief will be spread by the witches; even if he tries to curb their spread by letting MGs fight them, the MGs themselves create darkness by fighting and can fall if grief turns their wishes into curses.
But since Puella Magi kill witches to survive, they are indirectly causing less suffering upon the world. Less people are going to commit suicide.

Mami has killed witches for years without turning to the darkness. I think her presence did a lot more good than evil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
(I think one of the implications of the "Darkness cannot be defeated by Darkness" tagline is that there is actually an ongoing attempt at doing so. If Darkness is merely feeding on Darkness, there doesn't exist any conflict there.)
Rather, the darkness is accumulating in one place... Kyubey is eating all those Grief Seeds, which we know to be containers of darkness. For what reason Kyubey does so remains a mystery, but I guess that it cannot be good for humanity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
It means that in order for Madoka to become a true light and stop Kyubey's plan once and for all she needs to find an alternative way to fight without making a contract.

I already called it since episode 4 but now more than ever I think Madoka is going to become a magical girl without making a contract. I don't know how, but I'm pretty convinced it's going to happen.
Cheating the system, eh? I think Madoka knows not to trust Kyubey anymore. I agree that Madoka should find a different way. One not seeped in darkness and despair.

I feel that there is no way for anyone but evil to win. You refuse the contract, and people die. You accept the contract, and Kyubey wins. And contemplating the contract only gives Kyubey the freedom to show you the horror of reality...

In such a terrible world, one can only hope for a true miracle. Not so-called wishes that Kyubey exchanges for your soul, but one that ends the chains of suffering brought upon humanity.

Last edited by Deconstructor; 2011-02-24 at 20:32.
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Old 2011-02-24, 20:39   Link #529
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An analogy that's occurred to me given the recent events of Episode 8.

Perhaps the Magical Girl/Witch system is a bit like The Matrix from the Matrix movies. Once you're in it, you're a victim of the system and will be consumed by the system unless you find a way to cleanse the system from within or completely destroy it.

With this in mind, Kyubey is akin to Agent Smith (Kyubey even has the multiplicity aspect down ). Kyubey is the chief enforcement program for the magical girl/witch system, and will do everything he can to perpetuate the system. Now, Agent Smith went on to be a "free agent" of sorts, but in the beginning of the trilogy, he served the system and didn't try to rule it himself.

Madoka, in this vein, is "Mister Anderson". She's Neo, the Chosen One. The one who Agent Kyubey needs to reign in and let her potential serve the system rather than threaten it.

Madoka, like Neo, needs to find a solution from outside the system, and then use that against the system.

All we need now, perhaps, is a Morpheus... Could that be our Black Cat in the OP, I wonder? Hhmmmm....
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Old 2011-02-24, 21:07   Link #530
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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
I haven't seen episode 8, so if anything here contradicts episode 8, please tell me.
You ABSOLUTELY need to see episode 8. I don't know if they could have spelled out Kyuube's true nature more clearly than that.
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Old 2011-02-24, 21:11   Link #531
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I haven't seen episode 8, so if anything here contradicts episode 8, please tell me.
[/B]
Please don't take this the wrong way but...what are you doing here then

There's a HUGE amount of information in 8. You're risking getting spoiled by coming to the forums before even seeing the episode, especially now that subs have been out for a while now.
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Old 2011-02-24, 21:11   Link #532
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what if, given QB's name as INKYUBEYTOR/INCUBATOR, those GS that he seems to incubate would turn into a singular yet powerful witch? I mean, i have this gut-wrenching feeling that it's the witch in madoka's dream. GSeeds(darkness) combined together might morph into that witch.
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Old 2011-02-24, 21:15   Link #533
creb
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Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu View Post
what if, given QB's name as INKYUBEYTOR/INCUBATOR, those GS that he seems to incubate would turn into a singular yet powerful witch? I mean, i have this gut-wrenching feeling that it's the witch in madoka's dream. GSeeds(darkness) combined together might morph into that witch.
Well, at the very least, it's obvious he's making witches via magical girls. Whether he's making some super witch as well...heh, I guess we'll see.
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Old 2011-02-24, 21:33   Link #534
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The core of the debate has shifted from QBs moral stance to his ultimate intentions it seems.

I was however correct in my core theory that witches come from MGs, and if QB had a hand in this, it is because he was playing both sides in the first place.

Last edited by MeoTwister5; 2011-02-24 at 21:47.
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Old 2011-02-24, 22:31   Link #535
Deconstructor
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This is what we have learned about Kyubey from episode 8:

-Kyubey knows about Walpurgi's Night.
-Kyubey has multiple replacements. Most likely, Kyubey's true form is somewhere else entirely while the ferrets we thought were Kyubey are just puppets. Even if Kyubey's puppets are killed, more exist.
-Kyubey tells Madoka she could become omnipotent if she accepts the contract.
-Kyubey is also known as In-kyubey-tor by Homura.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyubey, end of episode 8
In this country, young women are called girls. So it's proper that you, turning into witches, should be called magical girls.
Observations:
So Puella Magi turn into witches. And Kyubey, known as incubator, would facilitate that process by turning girls into Puella Magi. When Sayaka's Soul Gem became too corrupt, she turned into a witch.

First Impressions
Logic 1:
But why would Kyubey tell Puella Magi about how grief seeds restore a Puella Magi's magic? It would be very counter-productive, if Kyubey's goal was to make witches, to inform Puella Magi about the way to prevent that from ever happening. Kyubey does eat the used grief seed - that may be another one of his roles as an incubator. But I have the feeling Kyubey is keeping his magical girl slaves alive and well for another reason. Perhaps as the Puella Magi grows stronger through killing witches, the resulting witch from that Puella Magi is proportionally stronger as well.

Logic 2:
Kyubey advised Sayaka not to fight crazily. However, Kyubey also hid the fact that doing so would accelerate the process of transforming into a witch. Not to mention he never told anyone about Puella Magi turning into witches. I conclude that Kyubey did not tell Sayaka about her descent into darkness because that is exactly what he wanted Sayaka to do. Kyubey wanted Sayaka to turn into a witch.

Logic 3:
Adding from logic 1, if Kyubey's job is as an incubator, then I assume he wants to do the same with Madoka. I take his words for face value: Madoka has the potential to become the most powerful magical girl. By extension, Madoka can become the most powerful witch. Or, perhaps, an evil entity even more powerful than a witch - a devil?

Logic 4:
Kyubey notes that Homura is from a different timeline. Homura knows Kyubey's true form. I guess that Homura has met Kyubey in either the past or the future. But if that guess is true, then Homura is most likely from the future. Kyubey still has questions for Homura - therefore, Kyubey either met Homura in the past but did not know about her time-traveling abilities, or Kyubey will meet Homura in the future. The latter is more likely.

Logic 5:
If logic 4 is true and Homura is in fact from the future, then perhaps Madoka's dream from episode 1 is a premonition of that future. To refresh, Madoka is watching Homura lose badly to a giant being, presumably a witch. Kyubey is there, offering the contract to Madoka once more. Since Madoka is not yet a Puella Magi, this scenario is not yet ruled out.

Last edited by Deconstructor; 2011-02-25 at 00:00.
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Old 2011-02-25, 00:47   Link #536
SagaraSouske
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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Logic 5:
If logic 4 is true and Homura is in fact from the future, then perhaps Madoka's dream from episode 1 is a premonition of that future. To refresh, Madoka is watching Homura lose badly to a giant being, presumably a witch. Kyubey is there, offering the contract to Madoka once more. Since Madoka is not yet a Puella Magi, this scenario is not yet ruled out.
By your own theory, the witch fighting Homura may be Madoka in a future where she contracted with QB and turned into a powerful witch. Thus Homura travel back in time to prevent that from happening.
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Old 2011-02-25, 01:16   Link #537
Deconstructor
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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
By your own theory, the witch fighting Homura may be Madoka in a future where she contracted with QB and turned into a powerful witch. Thus Homura travel back in time to prevent that from happening.
Oooh... now that's fascinating. Would be quite the ironic twist, and it makes some sense as well.
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Old 2011-02-25, 01:22   Link #538
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I can't help but think he has some hidden true form >.> Creepy little bastard...
Oh god looks like this might be true XD freaking creepy Hell Mouth creature!
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Old 2011-02-25, 01:56   Link #539
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QB true form could be even cuter. Who says that the greatest evil has to be ugly and vile?
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Old 2011-02-25, 02:19   Link #540
Pileus
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Some speculation about Kyubey:

Scenario 1: It feeds on grief and despair to survive, so it creates hope and despair by creating magical girls. However, as Sayaka mentioned, "the balance of hope and despair is zero," so Kyubey must grant the girl a wish if it wishes to create despair. In a way, Kyubey is like a parasite that feeds on humans.

Scenario 2: Kyubey was created by humans in an attempt to create a utopia. Kyubey serves to remove grief from the human race by sacrificing young girls and those who are unhappy (victims of witches). The goal of those who created Kyubey is to remove despair from the world, but of course, that is impossible. This is similar to the theme in the Lois Lowry book The Giver.

Scenario 1 is much more likely and Kyubey is likely to have some deeper background than just a parasite that happens to exist on Earth. Otherwise, I will be disappointed. Of course, the whether Kyubey is evil argument can still exist (is a parasite or a predator really evil? are viruses evil if they depend on their host to survive?), but the philosopher's job is to argue about stuff like ethics...
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