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Old 2011-04-23, 12:07   Link #801
frubam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiscian View Post
Now this is something interesting.
The problem with this line of reasoning is of course,
'why are you so absolutely convinced that you're in the right? Doesn't that make you just like Kyubey?'
You claim 'they are actually evil', but that's just an opinion: the fact that there are people who disagree with this shows that it's not something objective.
If you think that causing evil with good intentions is the worst sort of evil, then that makes pretty much everyone potentially the worst type of evil unless someone can prove beyond a doubt that their system of morality is absolutely right..
Not at all. Since I can perceive what is good and evil and Kyubei cannot, that makes a world of difference in how this situation is approached(hence why he does not consider himself evil, while I do). And of course it's an opinion. I have not stated anything above as a fact or saying you're 'wrong'. After all, as I said, deciphering evil takes emotion. And emotion is not anything that can be completely based in logic, thus it changes with each person. And yes, anyone has the potential to be evil with good intentions, even if the radiance of that evil differs between each circumstance.
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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
=/

Where did I say that it's okay since he isn't human? I don't believe I said he was good, nor that his actions are in any way "okay".

My point is that he's only evil so long as you hold him up to human morality. For the sake of this story, to the main characters, he is evil. I never disputed that, and I believe I actually said exactly that. My point is that once you step back and consider the universe as a whole, it isn't fair to say he is undeniably evil, since by his own moral standard he is not. Thus you cannot call him pure evil, since he is only evil so long as you look at him from a single perspective.
I don't believe a person(or Kyubei) judging his own character has any validity to it. Despite what you think you are, the reality is that it is others who give perspective to who you are to everyone. The more others perceive this perspective, despite their various experiences, personalities, and ethics, the more valid that perspective is, since that perspective is the common denominator after all. It's like the saying goes, "If two unrelated people say the same thing, it MUST be true.".
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Old 2011-04-23, 12:15   Link #802
Akashin
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Originally Posted by frubam View Post
I don't believe a person(or Kyubei) judging his own character has any validity to it. Despite what you think you are, the reality is that it is others who give perspective to who you are to everyone. The more others perceive this perspective, despite their various experiences, personalities, and ethics, the more valid that perspective is, since that perspective is the common denominator after all. It's like the saying goes, "If two unrelated people say the same thing, it MUST be true.".
None of which changes the fact that two unrelated people saying the same thing only makes him evil from a human perspective. And as I said, I never denied (and in fact fully agreed) that he is evil from a human perspective. Madoka's (and to an extent, Sayaka's and Homura's) perception of him toward the end of the series proves the human perception of him. But that's just it; human perspective only.

On this subject I pretty much agree with what Kaijo said; he said what I intended far more simply and eloquently than I did.
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Old 2011-04-23, 12:33   Link #803
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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
None of which changes the fact that two unrelated people saying the same thing only makes him evil from a human perspective. And as I said, I never denied (and in fact fully agreed) that he is evil from a human perspective. Madoka's (and to an extent, Sayaka's and Homura's) perception of him toward the end of the series proves the human perception of him. But that's just it; human perspective only.

On this subject I pretty much agree with what Kaijo said; he said what I intended far more simply and eloquently than I did.
Bah, well I'm not so logical about this affair. To me, and I'm sure any other sentient lifeform that would exist(if those evil Incubators didn't wipe them out already) that they would be seen as an evil existence that needs to be eradicated. There is no need for compromise. There is no need to look at "their" perspective. They have helped us get this far along. But now that we know what they are up to, they don't deserve to exist. They have been encasing their mindset as being neutral and emotionless so that they can carry out their nefarious deeds. I wouldn't be surprised if they KNEW it was evil, and thus eliminated the emotional part of themselves to carry it out. It would have been best to wipe them out before they cause our destruction, but of course, this is moot considering the end of the last episode.
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Old 2011-04-23, 12:41   Link #804
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Originally Posted by frubam View Post
Not at all. Since I can perceive what is good and evil and Kyubei cannot, that makes a world of difference in how this situation is approached(hence why he does not consider himself evil, while I do). And of course it's an opinion. I have not stated anything above as a fact or saying you're 'wrong'. After all, as I said, deciphering evil takes emotion. And emotion is not anything that can be completely based in logic, thus it changes with each person. And yes, anyone has the potential to be evil with good intentions, even if the radiance of that evil differs between each circumstance.
There are quite a few things I take issue with here, but mainly you seem to be making the claim that 'because you have emotions and therefore the capacity to judge good and evil, you are therefore more correct than Kyubey in deciding that he is evil while he denies it'

If everyone has the potential to be evil with good intentions (ie. 'mistaken'), how can you so definitely make the claim that you're right in saying Kyubey is evil?
Just because you claim he can't have an opinion on it doesn't mean you are automatically right because you do have one.

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Originally Posted by frubam View Post
"If two unrelated people say the same thing, it MUST be true.".
What's true is true, it doesn't matter who or how many people say it. Though in the first place, I don't think you can assign truth values to concepts like 'good' and 'evil' anyway.

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Originally Posted by frubam View Post
Bah, well I'm not so logical about this affair. To me, and I'm sure any other sentient lifeform that would exist(if those evil Incubators didn't wipe them out already) that they would be seen as an evil existence that needs to be eradicated.
Admitting you're not being logical is not the way to convince anyone about your point.
Kyubey himself said that humans are an incredible minority in having individual emotions, you would find that in the Madokaverse, the rest of the universe is on their side. What would you do if they all voted that we were 'wrong' by about one billion to one?
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Old 2011-04-23, 12:41   Link #805
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Originally Posted by frubam View Post
Bah, well I'm not so logical about this affair. To me, and I'm sure any other sentient lifeform that would exist(if those evil Incubators didn't wipe them out already) that they would be seen as an evil existence that needs to be eradicated. There is no need for compromise. There is no need to look at "their" perspective. They have helped us get this far along. But now that we know what they are up to, they don't deserve to exist. They have been encasing their mindset as being neutral and emotionless so that they can carry out their nefarious deeds. I wouldn't be surprised if they KNEW it was evil, and thus eliminated the emotional part of themselves to carry it out. It would have been best to wipe them out before they cause our destruction, but of course, this is moot considering the end of the last episode.
It's not really about being logical. And if Incubators were knocking at my door with promises of a wish and eventually being turned into a monster you can be sure I'd be right beside you in railing against them. But this is fiction, and because it is not my door but a fictional character's that they are knocking on, I can sit back and be more impersonal about it. And because I can be impersonal about it I can afford to logically say that they are not inherently evil.

Although honestly, I'm not the least bit sure where you got the idea that they forced apathy on themselves from. We have nothing to suggest that it is not a default trait of their species, and while it is within the realm of possibility that they eliminated their emotions in order to be strictly rational, there is no evidence suggesting that is so. The closest we have to evidence is the fact that since they were in space back when we were living in caves says it is remotely possible that they are technologically capable of doing so.

Personally I don't buy that, though.
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Old 2011-04-23, 13:02   Link #806
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
When hanging around the space nerds, one quickly realizes that aliens will really be alien. That doesn't go for just the physical, but their thought processes and morality as well. They'll be so different, that we'll really have to struggle to understand them. If you think it is bad now, with different groups of humans fighting with other groups of humans and not understanding them, well, you haven't seen anything.

So with an alien lifeform, our morality is as equally pointless as theirs. The only question that remains, then, is: "Do we do what is best for us, fighting for it if need be, or submit to what the aliens say is best?"

in that light, ascribing any morality to Kyube is a fool's errand. Either go along with him because you agree entropy is an issue and you're willing to sacrifice a few lives to deal with that and buy our incredible civilization... or declare that you'd rather remain naked in a cave, rather than sacrifice anyone, and thus fight against Kyube.

I suppose the third option would be to try and find a way for the two races to coexist which would require compromise, which is what Madoka ultimately could be seen as doing. Girls still fight and die, although they don't turn into witches anymore. And the Kyube's still get energy, although not as much anymore.

Decide for yourself which approach you favor and why. And decide what principles you feel are worth sacrificing in the name of compromise.

As Kaijo has just stated it all comes down to is comprise. How much are we willing to give up? As in is the lives of a few girls wroth the what we have gained as a whole? I sort of agree it was worth it in the end.
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Old 2011-04-23, 13:13   Link #807
frubam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiscian View Post
If everyone has the potential to be evil with good intentions (ie. 'mistaken'), how can you so definitely make the claim that you're right in saying Kyubey is evil?
Just because you claim he can't have an opinion on it doesn't mean you are automatically right because you do have one.
I can back it up because other characters in the story have said so and seen as much. They say he is evil too, and one can only truly recognize himself though the eyes of others as that is the worlds view. And clearly, in the world we are shown, Kyubei is evil.

Quote:
What's true is true, it doesn't matter who or how many people say it. Though in the first place, I don't think you can assign truth values to concepts like 'good' and 'evil' anyway.
I didn't expect you to take that so literally, so just forget about it.

Quote:
Admitting you're not being logical is not the way to convince anyone about your point.
Kyubey himself said that humans are an incredible minority in having individual emotions, you would find that in the Madokaverse, the rest of the universe is on their side. What would you do if they all voted that we were 'wrong' by about one billion to one?
It doesn't matter about the odds. Evil is evil. If other lifeforms agree to what they are doing, then they are evil as well. If it is observed by multiple people//beings, it must be some degree of truth. However, we do not see this with Kyubei. He is only a single being claiming neutrality, while all others see that he is evil. He has no other perspective to validate his claim. Thus, he is evil.

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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
It's not really about being logical. And if Incubators were knocking at my door with promises of a wish and eventually being turned into a monster you can be sure I'd be right beside you in railing against them. But this is fiction, and because it is not my door but a fictional character's that they are knocking on, I can sit back and be more impersonal about it. And because I can be impersonal about it I can afford to logically say that they are not inherently evil.
I'm pretty emotional about it. This is how I enjoy my stories, so I am more in-tune as if I'm living in the same world. Nothing wrong with your way of thinking, I just see myself looking at Kyubei and doing whatever it took to rid the world of him.

Quote:
Although honestly, I'm not the least bit sure where you got the idea that they forced apathy on themselves from. We have nothing to suggest that it is not a default trait of their species, and while it is within the realm of possibility that they eliminated their emotions in order to be strictly rational, there is no evidence suggesting that is so. The closest we have to evidence is the fact that since they were in space back when we were living in caves says it is remotely possible that they are technologically capable of doing so.

Personally I don't buy that, though.
No, I have no basis for that theory, but I wouldn't be surprised if its true. I naturally tend to think that if you are not an animal that lives on instinct, like any non-human species, you are living based on your free will. Free will creates individuality. And it is that individuality that gives rise to various thoughts, which inherently create emotion. I find it hard to believe that, instinctively, a race would automatically seek the balance of the energy of the universe. This caused me to think that they may have erased their emotions to carry out such a plan, since I got an impression that Kyubei is merely part of a collective brain thinking as a whole(think, The Borg). Yeah, I know that's out there .
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Old 2011-04-23, 13:47   Link #808
Akashin
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Originally Posted by frubam View Post
I'm pretty emotional about it. This is how I enjoy my stories, so I am more in-tune as if I'm living in the same world. Nothing wrong with your way of thinking, I just see myself looking at Kyubei and doing whatever it took to rid the world of him.
I suppose that your way of looking at it is fine, and really, the fact that you're passionate enough about what you watch to put yourself in their positions is sort of admirable. But that way of thinking doesn't really lend itself well to rationally judging something, since it leads to biased opinions and the like. As I said, if I were in the same very personal seat you're in I'd most certainly agree with you. As it is, I disagree almost on principle.

It isn't so much a matter of arguing as it is just having two vastly different ways of looking at it, since I can't really say you're wrong.

Quote:
No, I have no basis for that theory, but I wouldn't be surprised if its true. I naturally tend to think that if you are not an animal that lives on instinct, like any non-human species, you are living based on your free will. Free will creates individuality. And it is that individuality that gives rise to various thoughts, which inherently create emotion. I find it hard to believe that, instinctively, a race would automatically seek the balance of the energy of the universe. This caused me to think that they may have erased their emotions to carry out such a plan, since I got an impression that Kyubei is merely part of a collective brain thinking as a whole(think, The Borg). Yeah, I know that's out there .
If it helps, think of their desire to counter entropy as a form of instinct. They have been around long enough to see the passage of time in a way we haven't (again, I refer to the fact that they were technologically advanced enough to reach us back when we were living in caves) and thus it makes some kind of sense that they would see entropy as a far more prevalent issue than we do. And since entropy means the death of everything (though they only care about themselves, the fact remains), it is naturally for them to instinctively want to work against that.
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Old 2011-04-23, 16:27   Link #809
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I support genocide as a defence only because QB's race are genocidal.
No, they're not.

They don't particularly care if the human race is killed off or not, but it's not like they're aiming to kill off the entire human race.


Quote:
They have confirmed that they are willing to cause the extinction of the human race to get what they want, so you have no right to judge me when you support QB.
I specifically said that I'm not picking on you in particular, so I'm not "judging you".

However, you're wrongly judging me, and I take exception to that.

At no point did I say that I "support" Kyubey. I don't support him. That doesn't mean I have to wish genocide on him and his people.


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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Nope. I am saying if the human race was to be exterminated, QB needs to die with us as punishment.

Further, it is a case of defending the galaxy as a whole. If they are willing to murder humanity, they are willing to murder other alien lifeforms too. From that angle, it is about keeping the peace in the galaxy by removing a clear and present danger.
Genocide is not the only way of accomplishing that.


Quote:
And finally, by QB's own rules it is perfectly acceptable for us to kill them, as murder isn't a crime on his planet.
It's not like Kyubey is taking a gun and killing people with it. In the original world, he's utilizing a very nasty and immoral system that victimizes people. You can effectively guard against that purely by informing all humans, and various alien races, of the dangers of the Incubators.

You don't need to go kill off all Incubators in order to stop them.


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It's just happened that Madoka is too nice to do it.
To her credit.
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Old 2011-04-23, 18:00   Link #810
erneiz_hyde
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oh my, here we go again. QB can never rest easy with this thread going around.

QB doesn't have to be evil for someone to hate him. We have a lot of evil characters in other anime but there are plenty who were likeable (or at least not scorned as much).
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Old 2011-04-23, 20:15   Link #811
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
=/

Where did I say that it's okay since he isn't human? I don't believe I said he was good, nor that his actions are in any way "okay".

My point is that he's only evil so long as you hold him up to human morality. For the sake of this story, to the main characters, he is evil. I never disputed that, and I believe I actually said exactly that. My point is that once you step back and consider the universe as a whole, it isn't fair to say he is undeniably evil, since by his own moral standard he is not. Thus you cannot call him pure evil, since he is only evil so long as you look at him from a single perspective.

He's a confusing character to judge properly, and I've probably contradicted myself somewhere here. Whatever.
"By his own moral standard he is not" is quite pointless. Because all sociopaths who rape and murder don't think of themselves as evil. You don't need to have morals in order to do evil.

You are saying if I having no morals, I don't need to be moral. Is that right?
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Old 2011-04-23, 20:24   Link #812
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
"By his own moral standard he is not" is quite pointless. Because all sociopaths who rape and murder don't think of themselves as evil. You don't need to have morals in order to do evil.

You are saying if I having no morals, I don't need to be moral. Is that right?
Sociopaths, rapists and you () are all still human, and thus held accountable by human morality. Kyubey is not human; that's kind of the entire point I'm making here. When I said his own morality, I was referring to the morality of the Incubators as a whole (of which we only know of him); and clearly, their moral standard is vastly different than our own.
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Old 2011-04-23, 21:22   Link #813
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Originally Posted by frubam View Post
I'm pretty emotional about it. This is how I enjoy my stories, so I am more in-tune as if I'm living in the same world. Nothing wrong with your way of thinking, I just see myself looking at Kyubei and doing whatever it took to rid the world of him.
Wow. You are prepared to kill little girls in scores to get rid of QB? Well, do as you see fit... Just don't ask why people see you as sociopath.
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Old 2011-04-23, 23:34   Link #814
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
Sociopaths, rapists and you () are all still human, and thus held accountable by human morality. Kyubey is not human; that's kind of the entire point I'm making here. When I said his own morality, I was referring to the morality of the Incubators as a whole (of which we only know of him); and clearly, their moral standard is vastly different than our own.
So what if their moral standard is different to our own?
When they interact with us, on our planet, they need to play by our rules.

What made you believe QB has the authority to trample humanity's rights? You think they are superior to us? Because they clearly are not. They are just an alien race, their moral values are not ours. So no way would you be able to claim it is okay for them to force their morals on us.

This is where our opinions differ; I am saying QB can only follow moral values of his own when he is in his territory. You on the other hand, are saying QB can enforce his own morals on everyone else, even when he isn't on his planet.
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Old 2011-04-23, 23:53   Link #815
Akashin
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
So what if their moral standard is different to our own?
When they interact with us, on our planet, they need to play by our rules.

What made you believe QB has the authority to trample humanity's rights? You think they are superior to us? Because they clearly are not. They are just an alien race, their moral values are not ours. So no way would you be able to claim it is okay for them to force their morals on us.

This is where our opinions differ; I am saying QB can only follow moral values of his own when he is in his territory. You on the other hand, are saying QB can enforce his own morals on everyone else, even when he isn't on his planet.
In a perfect world yes, he would come to our planet and adhere to our sense of morality. But he doesn't, and it's understandable why; whether or not Incubators really were superior (there's no denying their technological superiority, but overall superiority is debatable), he believes them to be superior--and if not that, at least more important. This doesn't give him any rightful authority to spit on humanity's rights, and I still haven't said any such thing, nor have I said that he has any right to enforce his morals upon others. I keep getting the impression that we're arguing under the assumption that I agree with Kyubey here; stop putting words in my mouth, please.

That Kyubey is evil in the sense of our own morality is unquestionable; I'm losing the ability to count the number of times I've said this on one hand. But by his own alien morality he is not evil; accounting for the fact that this is a legitimate fact is not a difficult concept. We keep arguing that he has to be evil but in doing so we keep coming back to him being evil being reliant upon adhering to human morality; if your argument is simply that in the scope of human morality he is evil then we can stop right now, since there I agree with you fully.

It is that him being evil by human morality somehow makes him evil in the grand scheme of things that I disagree with. This doesn't make his actions better, not at all. But that he lacked malicious intent in doing what he did--and in fact had benevolent intent, for whatever reason--is a relevant point to make. And it is exactly that point that draws the line between him being fully evil and him being evil by human morality.

I feel like I'm beginning to repeat myself here. =/
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Old 2011-04-24, 01:22   Link #816
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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
In a perfect world yes, he would come to our planet and adhere to our sense of morality. But he doesn't, and it's understandable why; whether or not Incubators really were superior (there's no denying their technological superiority, but overall superiority is debatable), he believes them to be superior--and if not that, at least more important. This doesn't give him any rightful authority to spit on humanity's rights, and I still haven't said any such thing, nor have I said that he has any right to enforce his morals upon others. I keep getting the impression that we're arguing under the assumption that I agree with Kyubey here; stop putting words in my mouth, please.

That Kyubey is evil in the sense of our own morality is unquestionable; I'm losing the ability to count the number of times I've said this on one hand. But by his own alien morality he is not evil; accounting for the fact that this is a legitimate fact is not a difficult concept. We keep arguing that he has to be evil but in doing so we keep coming back to him being evil being reliant upon adhering to human morality; if your argument is simply that in the scope of human morality he is evil then we can stop right now, since there I agree with you fully.

It is that him being evil by human morality somehow makes him evil in the grand scheme of things that I disagree with. This doesn't make his actions better, not at all. But that he lacked malicious intent in doing what he did--and in fact had benevolent intent, for whatever reason--is a relevant point to make. And it is exactly that point that draws the line between him being fully evil and him being evil by human morality.

I feel like I'm beginning to repeat myself here. =/
My thing is this: Kyubei cannot understand why all the chars see him as evil. He feels... I mean he analyzes that what is doing is right and for the greater good of the universe, yet he cannot perceive what is 'good' and 'evil' because he looks at everything in a logical way. If he cannot fathom 'good' and 'evil' in any action by looking at all situations logically, how exactly can he fathom it in himself or his race? This clearly shows he does not have any qualifications to specify what he is doing or he, himself, is not evil. We, as humans, have this qualification; it's called emotion. This is why all the chars as well as the viewers deem his actions evil. Even if he has no malicious intent, he still knows the suffering it will cause the girls to become PMs, yet turns a blind eye for the sake of his own(or the Inkyubeitors) goals. That sounds like he's evil to me.

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Originally Posted by Dharma View Post
Wow. You are prepared to kill little girls in scores to get rid of QB? Well, do as you see fit... Just don't ask why people see you as sociopath.
"Fight fire with fire." as they say.
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Old 2011-04-24, 01:43   Link #817
Akashin
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My thing is this: Kyubei cannot understand why all the chars see him as evil. He feels... I mean he analyzes that what is doing is right and for the greater good of the universe, yet he cannot perceive what is 'good' and 'evil' because he looks at everything in a logical way. If he cannot fathom 'good' and 'evil' in any action by looking at all situations logically, how exactly can he fathom it in himself or his race? This clearly shows he does not have any qualifications to specify what he is doing or he, himself, is not evil. We, as humans, have this qualification; it's called emotion. This is why all the chars as well as the viewers deem his actions evil. Even if he has no malicious intent, he still knows the suffering it will cause the girls to become PMs, yet turns a blind eye for the sake of his own(or the Inkyubeitors) goals. That sounds like he's evil to me.
Which brings us around to what exactly his goal is. By his logic entropy is a real issue (I'm wary of that, but whatevs), and the sacrifice of a few girls to stave it off is worth it. This (as the series points out) is in line with butches rationalizing murdering animals for meat; are we evil for hunting animals for our own gain? Ignoring the outlying groups that will argue we are, we don't really see it that way. Kyubey is the same way.

Is that right? No. Is it evil from our perspective? Yes. But so long as he has a viable, explainable reason to do so and isn't just making little girls cry for the lulz, he isn't evil beyond human morality.

Quote:
"Fight fire with fire." as they say.


Seriously. Your entire argument hinges upon Kyubey being willing to kill girls for energy and failing to see the evil in it, yet you're willing to do exactly that to remove him? "Oh hey, guys, I have a great way to kill Hitler! Let's kill all the Jews and throw their bodies at him!"

Assuming you're not trolling, that makes absolutely no sense.
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Old 2011-04-24, 01:44   Link #818
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A few of the wonderful questions that i like to ask those who forget to question the very base of the entire argument.

i) What species created morality?
ii) Do cows have morality?
iii) What species judges morality

Oh wait! Cows are moral like female cows protecting their young
Answer: Do consider instinct and what difference morality and instinct

Oh wait, farm animals aren't smart! They wouldn't have morality like smart aliens!
Answer: This points to a certain arrogance in assuming all intelligent species are the same. Show me a smart alien that has morality and i'll agree. Without proof, the answer defaults to the original

Oh wait! We shouldn't put people as the only ones to judge morality
Answer: The species who created the concept are the ones capable to judging if an event fits the concept
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Old 2011-04-24, 02:07   Link #819
taofd
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Guys are we really back to the is QB evil discussion? If anything, episode 12 should prove that QB is not EVIL, he is simply amoral. Its race does what is most efficient and logical at that given time, hence Homura's words. "That is your nature, isn't it?"

Also, we were already slapped on the wrists by mods earlier about talking about a QB morality discussion :/.
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Old 2011-04-24, 02:23   Link #820
frubam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
Which brings us around to what exactly his goal is. By his logic entropy is a real issue (I'm wary of that, but whatevs), and the sacrifice of a few girls to stave it off is worth it. This (as the series points out) is in line with butches rationalizing murdering animals for meat; are we evil for hunting animals for our own gain? Ignoring the outlying groups that will argue we are, we don't really see it that way. Kyubey is the same way.

Is that right? No. Is it evil from our perspective? Yes. But so long as he has a viable, explainable reason to do so and isn't just making little girls cry for the lulz, he isn't evil beyond human morality.
Can you stop saying "human morality"? No matter how much you try to justify Kyubei's actions, his inability to decipher 'right' or 'wrong', whether due to his own actions, "beliefs", or otherwise, he is still considered evil. This sums it up quite nicely:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
Oh wait! We shouldn't put people as the only ones to judge morality
Answer: The species who created the concept are the ones capable to judging if an event fits the concept
Based on Kyubei's actions, they think in a purely logical way. As such, they do not have the ability to classify themselves or their actions that way. They simply can't. No different than how they perceive what we[humans] can't, we perceive what the Inkyubeitors can't, thus, they need to be judged by are rules. Clearly they are evil.

Quote:


Seriously. Your entire argument hinges upon Kyubey being willing to kill girls for energy and failing to see the evil in it, yet you're willing to do exactly that to remove him? "Oh hey, guys, I have a great way to kill Hitler! Let's kill all the Jews and throw their bodies at him!"

Assuming you're not trolling, that makes absolutely no sense.
Don't see how it doesn't. Sometimes, a greater evil is needed to stop a current evil and lives sacrificed for a greater good. Does this make me evil? Absolutely. And this is exactly what Kyubei is doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taofd View Post
Guys are we really back to the is QB evil discussion? If anything, episode 12 should prove that QB is not EVIL, he is simply amoral. Its race does what is most efficient and logical at that given time, hence Homura's words. "That is your nature, isn't it?"
What's logical does not necessarily mean it is just, nor does it excuse what they are willing to do. The fact that they are willing to do whatever underhanded, unscrupulous tactics there are to get the most efficient means is the very CORE of evil.
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