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Old 2011-02-08, 14:25   Link #121
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawakanai View Post
Its also possible that whatever higher order of rules Kyuube is working off of (agent for a higher power or a cosmic bet between good and evil- or whatever), he must offer renumeration in order to create a binding MG contract. And it appears that same payment of a wish also serves to keep the contract in force. How that plays out we don't know yet.
Good point.

So perhaps the fact that Kyubey offers the girls a wish doesn't reflect on his morality (or lack thereof) in either direction.


Quote:

To a young girl like Madoka or Sayaka the wish might, at first, seem like a boon and inducement to sign up- but those of us watching behind the fouth wall already suspect there are catches involved. I have a feeling that even granted wishes through QB are a mixed bag.
Well, I kind of agree and disagree.

There's an old saying: "Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it."

The idea behind that saying is that wishes, if realized, can have unintended consequences.

Consider a nice caring kid saying to a genie, "I wish that everyone had a million dollars!"

And then the wish is granted, with each and every person finding a million dollars appearing out of nowhere on their person.

And then what happens in short order is that inflation sky-rockets worldwide, and the value of the dollar plummets, and people are no better off now than before.

Now, did the wish have a Monkey's Paw catch? No, the genie granted it honestly and fairly.

But the wish had logical repercussions that meant that the intent behind it was unrealized.


I sincerely doubt that there's a Monkey's Paw catch to the wishes of Madoka Magica. This is for the following reasons:

1) Kamijo's hand seems to be healed fine, at least so far.

2) If there was such a catch, Homura should be bringing it up to Madoka, as it would be a good disincentive against Madoka choosing to be a magical girl.

3) Homura said that all magical girls fight for their wishes. This suggests, in my opinion, that the wish aspect of the magical girl system is actually a pretty fair one. I mean, who fights for a lemon, if you get my car analogy?


However, I do think that the wishes that are granted in this anime can have unintended consequences. With this in mind, I could see Kamijo's healed hand resulting in events that are not to Sayaka's liking (such as him leaving her behind in order to pursue a worldwide career as a top violinist).


Quote:

Do other such animals in the Magical Girl genre reveal the downsides and catches to being a Magical Girl at first or do the girls find out, along with the viewer, as the series progresses?
Great question.

I'd say that usually the girls find that out, along with the viewer, as the series progresses.

It's important to keep in mind, though, that real choice is rarely there for the magical girl. Either the Kyubey stand-in just literally forces the magical girl role unto the targeted teenage girl, or events conspire in such a way that the teenage girl becomes one out of immediate necessity (i.e. in order to save herself from a monster bearing down on her).


Quote:
(I understand that the Madoka universe is a dark one, but still there has to be down sides and incentives to push girls over the edge to commit to be MG in other shows- "stop the destruction of the Earth" would be a good motive I guess).
One area where Madoka is very different is that Madoka casts the role of a magical girl in a negative light, or at least in an ambiguous one.

But it doesn't really do this by the magical girl role being drastically different in this anime than in other magical girl animes (at least not yet), but rather by simply putting a much greater emphasis on the danger aspect of the role compared to what most other magical girl animes do.

In other words, Nanoha Takamachi's life isn't necessarily any safer than Sayaka's, but the danger aspect of it is generally emphasized less.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
@FlavorofLife: You can justify Kyuube's ability to intercede in situations as much as you want, but then you're basically asking Kyuube to undertake something that is not his duty. Kyuube's role is to contact potential Puella Magi and offer them the exchange. He lets them know what they're getting into and offers a compensation that he fairly delivers on.

From then on out, things fall into the Puella Magi's hands, and you know what? That's perfectly fair. Since I like Kaijo's 'capitalism' analogy, let's expand on that theme. When you take a job, a typical, mutually beneficial arrangement between employer and employee will look like this.

Employee receives
-Payment (In this case, a wish)
-Equipment, facilities, information necessary to perform assigned tasks (In this case, magical powers)

Employee undertakes
-Assigned tasks (Fighting witches)
-Responsibility to ensure they are able to continue such tasks (Surviving other challenges and keeping themselves healthy and stable)

What people who want Kyuube to more directly intercede are basically asking that a manager take over that second responsibility for his employees. While a caring manager can be a good thing, a manager who doesn't add 'babysitting my employees at all times' to his list of things to do is not suddenly morally at fault. Especially if he's busy with lots of other employees, he's just being pragmatic.

Where I think people are running aground with Kyuube is, as I've said, that this is not a rose-tinted fantasy as most Mahou Shoujo stories are. This is not a world where little girls are readily willing to throw their lives away in battle against violent horrors without personal compensation, nor a world where the powers that be have the desire to hold the hands of their human agents. It's a world where people have their own motives and act accordingly. That doesn't make Kyuube evil, it makes Kyuube pragmatic. I don't think he builds any catch into the wish that the girls aren't warned of beforehand--how heavy their unique cost is depends on their own actions.
Great points, Ricky. I pretty much agree with you here 100%
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Old 2011-02-08, 14:27   Link #122
FlavorOfLife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
What people who want Kyuube to more directly intercede are basically asking that a manager take over that second responsibility for his employees.
Sorry, the entire point was on fairness not a point of trying to keep them alive. This "intercession" which you refer to, is simply informing Sakaya and Kyoko on each other so neither has any advantage and which he already did with Homura and Kyoko.

Using your employee/manager scenerio, it would be asking for the manager to not show favortism rather than "ensure they are able to continue such tasks".
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Old 2011-02-08, 14:35   Link #123
Ricky Controversy
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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
Sorry, the entire point was on fairness not a point of trying to keep them alive. This "intercession" which you refer to, is simply informing Sakaya and Kyoko on each other so neither has any advantage and which he already did with Homura and Kyoko.
I must have missed this: when did this happen?

Quote:
Using your employee/manager scenerio, it would be asking for the manager to not show favoritism rather than "ensure they are able to continue such tasks".
I don't see how Kyuube is showing favoritism. Kyoko formed her advantage herself by taking the initiative. That Sayaka didn't approach the situation the way Kyoko did doesn't mean it's up to Kyuube to inform her that Kyoko's coming after her. One of those situations where it boils down to 'you should have asked'.

If Kyuube had proactively taken steps to dismantle the advantage Kyoko gained through her own proactive attitude, that would be favoritism.
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Old 2011-02-08, 14:40   Link #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
No, what it requires us to believe is that employers do not intercede in the affairs of their employees where it's beyond the line of duty. An employer's concern is only with their employee's welfare during their work hours. If two coal miners get in a fight in a bar, it's not on the supervisor's head to break that fight up even if he has foreknowledge that it will happen. Kyuube took the steps to give the Puella Magi every protection he can possibly afford them for their duties: if they choose to go after each other, the burden of responsibility is on them, not him.
Well Sayaka was "working" at time so we can't actually call this a bar. Also if an employer has foreknowledge of a dangerous situation, just like if anyone else, then they would be morally inclined to alert people of it. This moral argument not truly a right or wrong though everyone would have different interpretations on that. With this we can conclude he is not a moral person.



Quote:
And I agree that Kyuube is amoral. He's a pragmatist. What bothers me is people acting like he's evil or suspicious because of that. He's just neutral. It would be more morally laudable for him to resolve the dispute himself if he can, but it's also in no way required of him.
It's your opinion that he is amoral and a pragmatist but others aren't so sure of that. A lot of people have gone the immoral route. I personally find it fairly immoral that he not only pretends to not know what is going on when Kyouko attacks but even tries to use the situation to entice Madoka into a contract. That's not being a pragmatist that taking advantage of a situation if not wholly manipulating the situation towards his own ends.
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Old 2011-02-08, 14:45   Link #125
Ricky Controversy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
It's your opinion that he is amoral and a pragmatist but others aren't so sure of that. A lot of people have gone the immoral route. I personally find it fairly immoral that he not only pretends to not know what is going on when Kyouko attacks but even tries to use the situation to entice Madoka into a contract. That's not being a pragmatist that taking advantage of a situation if not wholly manipulating the situation towards his own ends.
Why? When has Kyuube ever mentioned the contract to Madoka--or Sayaka for that matter--when she wasn't already thinking about it? It's not manipulative to offer something when you know someone wants it unless you're being dishonest about the terms of the arrangement, which we have been given no reason to believe Kyuube has been.
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Old 2011-02-08, 14:48   Link #126
FlavorOfLife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
I must have missed this: when did this happen?
Friom Decagon's extraction of subs

ep 5
(10:00) [QB is sitting on a post] "Are you really going to take her on?" "Things may not go how you plan. There's another magical girl in town too." "I don't really know." "Maybe, maybe not." "She's an irregular. I can't tell what she's going to do." [Close up of QB watching Kyoko walk away.]

Question
i) Did he volunteer information Kyoko did not know?
ii) Did he volunteer information Sayaka did not know?

What is the conclusion on the subject of fainess and neutrality?

Addendum: How did Kyoko even know who the new MS was, where she would be (far enough in advance to find a suitable location to spy)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
I don't see how Kyuube is showing favoritism. Kyoko formed her advantage herself by taking the initiative. That Sayaka didn't approach the situation the way Kyoko did doesn't mean it's up to Kyuube to inform her that Kyoko's coming after her. One of those situations where it boils down to 'you should have asked'.

If Kyuube had proactively taken steps to dismantle the advantage Kyoko gained through her own proactive attitude, that would be favoritism.
Well interesting was it not that he informed Kyoko of the new MS in town so she could "take the initiative"? What would happen if both just met up without Kyoko being informed at all? What is the advantage to each side in this case, if any?

An example of "taking the initiative"
CEO: Hey John my company is going to be taken over by XYZ with a premium of 25 cents per share. The announcement's coming up tomorrow
John: Wow great! I'll buy as much as i can today
CEO: Wow you're really taking the initiative. Jack's dumb to not do the same
John: You told Jack?
CEO: No, but... but... he should have known what i was thinking!
John: Yeah too bad for Jack's lack of initiative or else it wouldn't be just me raking it in or neither of us making money if you kept quiet. CEO, you're the best!
CEO: Of course! You can always count on me being fair and impartial.

Last edited by FlavorOfLife; 2011-02-08 at 15:04. Reason: Adding big labels because people will harp that the exmaple is different from the anime situation
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Old 2011-02-08, 14:55   Link #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
Why? When has Kyuube ever mentioned the contract to Madoka--or Sayaka for that matter--when she wasn't already thinking about it? It's not manipulative to offer something when you know someone wants it unless you're being dishonest about the terms of the arrangement, which we have been given no reason to believe Kyuube has been.
He knows she wants it!!! Wow, you people make him seem more the pedophile now.

Yes, he was manipulative about it when cutting out Sayaka out of the conversation and talking to Madoka in EP5. He called her the ace in the hole and says how he knows she'd do anything to protect her friends and it is him who brings up to her that the only way to stop Kyouko and Sayaka from fighting was her forming a contract.

Personally I have seen more than a little information to see that QB isn't on the up and up.
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Old 2011-02-08, 15:05   Link #128
Ricky Controversy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
ep 5
(10:00) [QB is sitting on a post] "Are you really going to take her on?" "Things may not go how you plan. There's another magical girl in town too." "I don't really know." "Maybe, maybe not." "She's an irregular. I can't tell what she's going to do." [Close up of QB watching Kyoko walk away.]

Question
i) Did he volunteer information Kyoko did not know?
ii) Did he volunteer information Sayaka did not know?

What is the conclusion on the subject of fainess and neutrality?
Oh, I see. But then you're again glossing over the fact that Kyoko came to town with an explicit intention and was approaching Kyuube for a run-down of the situation. He responded in kind, because as a neutral party, he has no reason to state anything other than the raw information. Sayaka, in turn did not ask. Kyuube's behavior is pretty consistent in that he doesn't go anywhere that the parties engaging him don't actively pursue. He only offers his contract when the wish is present--seen clearly in both Madoka and Sayaka's cases--and only speaks on a subject when others have brought it forth. To do otherwise would be to suggest and influence.

Quote:
Addendum: How did Kyoko even know who the new MS was, where she would be (far enough in advance to find a suitable location to spy)
Possibly Kyuube, but why leap to that assumption? We're given the impression that Kyoko has been at this a while, it's entirely possible she's savvy enough to track other Puella Magi. We could also ask the same question of how Homura knew something we amiss with Madoka before their initial Kyuube-related encounter. Asking that question is interesting, but given how little information we have on hand, it's a bit fruitless.

Quote:
Well interesting was it not that he informed Kyoko of the new MS in town so she could "take the initiative"? What would happen if both just met up without Kyoko being informed at all? What is the advantage to each side in this case, if any?
Except that Kyoko was already intending to set up shop in that area regardless and made her intention clear. Telling her that there was already a new magical girl in the area was a purely neutral bit of information for her to consider, not so much "so you can track her down" as "if you're interested in this area, these are the facts."

Quote:
CEO: Hey John my company is going to be taken over by XYZ with a premium of 25 cents per share. The announcement's coming up tomorrow
John: Wow great! I'll buy as much as i can today
CEO: Wow you're really taking the initiative. Jack's dumb to not do the same
John: You told Jack?
CEO: No, but... but... he should have known what i was thinking!
John: Yeah too bad for Jack's lack of initiative or else neither of us would make any money rather than just me raking it in. CEO, you're the best!
CEO: Of course! You can always count on me being fair and impartial.
Except it's more like

John: Hey CEO, I heard rumors things are changing in the company, can you fill me in?
CEO: Sure, XYZ is happening.
John: Oh, interesting. I'll prepare accordingly.

Meanwhile, Jack is absorbed in his immediate concerns, and even though he can see the signs and the CEO has let him know enough since he took the job that he could know what questions to ask, he doesn't ask any, and the CEO decides not to bother if Jack isn't showing the drive to pursue that information.
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Old 2011-02-08, 15:08   Link #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
Friom Decagon's extraction of subs

ep 5
(10:00) [QB is sitting on a post] "Are you really going to take her on?" "Things may not go how you plan. There's another magical girl in town too." "I don't really know." "Maybe, maybe not." "She's an irregular. I can't tell what she's going to do." [Close up of QB watching Kyoko walk away.]
Since you and Ricky are working on the Employer/Employee analogy, let me extend off of that one:

John: I'm going to absolutely pulverize that Jack when I track him down at the bar later tonight! How dare he move in on my ex-girlfriend like that?!

Supervisor Mark: Are you really going to take him on?

John: Of course I am! He needs to learn a lesson about moving in on my territory!

Supervisor Mark: Things may not go how you plan. There's some strong guys that go to that bar, I hear.

John: Oh, who are they? Do you know them? Do they work here?

Supervisor Mark: I don't really know.

John: Did they use to work here?

Supervisor Mark: Maybe, maybe not.

John: Then why did you bring them up?

Supervisor Mark: I hear that they're pretty irregular people. I can't tell what they're going to do.


Now, doesn't that come across as Supervisor Mark trying to talk John out of going after Jack at the bar?
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Old 2011-02-08, 15:24   Link #130
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Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
Oh, I see. But then you're again glossing over the fact that Kyoko came to town with an explicit intention and was approaching Kyuube for a run-down of the situation. He responded in kind, because as a neutral party, he has no reason to state anything other than the raw information. Sayaka, in turn did not ask. Kyuube's behavior is pretty consistent in that he doesn't go anywhere that the parties engaging him don't actively pursue. He only offers his contract when the wish is present--seen clearly in both Madoka and Sayaka's cases--and only speaks on a subject when others have brought it forth. To do otherwise would be to suggest and influence.
You really feel that a MS needs to know that there is a new MS made? That is under "information necessary to perform assigned tasks (In this case, magical powers)"?

You would then also be saying that it is Kyubei's duty to do this? He could not simply ignore it with the knowlege both would find out about each other sooner or later? Even more simply, why did he have to show up in the first place?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
Possibly Kyuube, but why leap to that assumption? We're given the impression that Kyoko has been at this a while, it's entirely possible she's savvy enough to track other Puella Magi. We could also ask the same question of how Homura knew something we amiss with Madoka before their initial Kyuube-related encounter. Asking that question is interesting, but given how little information we have on hand, it's a bit fruitless.
If she could track other MS due to experience, she would have noticed Homura's tracks prior to Kyubei's warning which took place after she spied on Sayaka.

If you want to say Homura's so experienced she's hidden herself from Kyoko, then why would Homura be hiding given Mami is already dead as well as if she tracked Sayaka, she would have seen Homura show up after Sayaka's first battle hence she would have known.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
Except it's more like

John: Hey CEO, I heard rumors things are changing in the company, can you fill me in?
CEO: Sure, XYZ is happening.
John: Oh, interesting. I'll prepare accordingly.

Meanwhile, Jack is absorbed in his immediate concerns, and even though he can see the signs and the CEO has let him know enough since he took the job that he could know what questions to ask, he doesn't ask any, and the CEO decides not to bother if Jack isn't showing the drive to pursue that information.
No sorry, Kyoko in ep 4 never asked about other MS other than the newbie. This information was volunteered without any probing by Kyubei in ep 5. Hence in your example, the CEO would volunteer information without being asked with the information volunteered initially unknown and possibly critical to the task John has planned
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Old 2011-02-08, 15:28   Link #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Now, doesn't that come across as Supervisor Mark trying to talk John out of going after Jack at the bar?
Perhaps, though there are still a lot of possibilities. He might have know she was the type to become more interested in the situation once she found out about another player as she said she was.

Even then if we argue that he was trying to stop Kyouko then we are still left to wonder why he didn't warn Sayaka while we warned her. Is he playing favorites? He just didn't state just the "raw information" to her he went out of his way to warn her against Homura. That would take away a bit from him being amoral to him more picking and choosing between the girls.
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Old 2011-02-08, 15:29   Link #132
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Your example needs correction (in bold)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
John: I'm going to absolutely pulverize that Jack when I track him down at the bar later tonight! How dare he move in on my ex-girlfriend like that?!

Supervisor Mark: Are you really going to take him on?

John: Of course I am! He needs to learn a lesson about moving in on my territory!

Supervisor Mark: Things may not go how you plan. He might have 1 friend in the bar, I hear.

John: Oh, who is he? Do you know him? Does he work here?

Supervisor Mark: I don't really know.

John: Did he use to work here?

Supervisor Mark: Maybe, maybe not.

John: Then why did you bring him up?

Supervisor Mark: I hear that he's a pretty irregular person. I can't tell what he's going to do.


Now, doesn't that come across as Supervisor Mark trying to talk John out of going after Jack at the bar?
With the correction, it sounds as a warning that you should carry a baseball bat instead of just using your fists. Does not sound at all like talking John out of going after Jack

Kyubei did not mention power and it was obvious from his sentence it was one person (and even than it was a "might" not a definitive answer)
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Old 2011-02-08, 15:41   Link #133
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I'd like to also point out that when she does ask if he has a problem with it(her going after Sayaka) he doesn't say no just that things won't go as she had planned. I'd have to say he was warning her to be prepared, not trying to convince her not to go.
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Old 2011-02-08, 15:55   Link #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Perhaps,
Well, at least you're willing to consider the possibility, to your credit.

That's all that I ask people to do.


Quote:
Even then if we argue that he was trying to stop Kyouko then we are still left to wonder why he didn't warn Sayaka while we warned her. Is he playing favorites?
If you want to prevent a possible brawl between two people from happening, and one half of the possible brawl intends to be the surprise attack aggressor, the best way to stop it is to focus on the aggressor. The only surefire way to prevent the brawl from happening is to eliminate the aggressor's desire to attack. In other words, to change his mind.

Telling the potential surprise attack victim about the aggressor's intent may simply cause the brawl to happen even sooner (i.e. "Jack: So John was planning to sneak attack me at the bar, eh? That little punk... well, I have a surprise for him, then! Let's go, Matthew, we're going to have a few words with him then!")


Quote:
He just didn't state just the "raw information" to her he went out of his way to warn her against Homura.
To use as a deterrent against Kyoko deciding to go after Sayaka, I would argue.

Quote:
That would take away a bit from him being amoral to him more picking and choosing between the girls.
How so? Sayaka already knows about Homura, so it's not like he's letting Kyoko in on invaluable insider information that Sayaka lacks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
Your example needs correction (in bold)
Let me explain why I choose the terminology that I did.

I didn't use "friend" because neither did Kyubey.

I enlarged the number and strength of the people involved, because I think Kyubey intended to give Kyoko the sense that this other magical girl could be a real threat to her (i.e. I think that the word "irregular" has a somewhat heavier meaning in the anime than it does in my analogy, so I felt I needed to compensate for that somehow).


Quote:


With the correction, it sounds as a warning that you should carry a baseball bat instead of just using your fists.
The problem with taking it this way is that all magical girls are already "heavily armed", so to speak. It's not like bringing added real world weapons along would make any significant difference.


Quote:

Does not sound at all like talking John out of going after Jack
Come on, Flavor of Life, even Slick_rick is willing to admit the possibility of my interpretation here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
I'd like to also point out that when she does ask if he has a problem with it(her going after Sayaka) he doesn't say no just that things won't go as she had planned. I'd have to say he was warning her to be prepared, not trying to convince her not to go.
Slick_rick, didn't you just imply earlier on that my interpretation is a possible one? Isn't it possible that Kyubey was trying to dissuade Kyoko from attacking Sayaka?


Edit: I just rewatched the scene between Kyubey and Kyoko where these lines come up.

In doing so, two distinct impressions come across to me...

1. Kyoko has a mischievous grin on her face when she asks "Have a problem with that?". She's kind of teasing, if not mocking, Kyubey there, imo. To put it in internet terms, it's almost like typing "lol, u mad?"

2. Kyubey's tone in his reply to Kyoko has a slight touch of anger to it... which is quite something for Kyubey. I get the sense that he doesn't approve of Kyoko's plan, and hence wanted to throw a good reason against it back in her face for teasing/mocking him.
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Old 2011-02-08, 15:58   Link #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
Y



You should consider that people already understood your point and moved on from there and now you're missing the point instead. He does NOT need to "persuade/force" them to stop. He needs to simply tell the both of them and survive. Hence if he is high defensive abilities but has the offensive capability of a mouse that is sufficient. He does not need superman powers to smash kyoko or sayaka into obedience which is what you seem to think when you think he is required to "subdue" them.

Hell, he even has telepathy for communication from hiding



You never counted the shots eh? 7 shots fired. 1 hit. This is when he is already wounded. The injury caused? None visible except sliding on the floor. I like how you try to make my point sound nothing like what i said. Very comedic.

Then there's the part where you did not even attempt to answer why Homura never used her shunpo style movement and was seen very slowly running.


Finally got it. To be honest I kinda expect you complain that I "twist your words" or "That isn't what I really mean"...etc regarding Kyubei being a super martial art master that is dodging with ease. You are supporting your Kyubei is safe by dodging theory right? You are both saying I "make your point sound nothing like you said" but you also reinforce your Kyubei is a dodge master theory. You kinda lost me there.

So basically what you are saying, is that Kyubei is fully able to defend/ escape from Kyoko if Kyoko become crazy and attack Kyubei. You proof is the scene between Homura vs Kyubei, at that scene you believe Kyubei is not in any immediate danger from Homura.

If you fully embrace Kyubei dodge master theory then I have no other question. You can interpret any scene any way you want. I can fully see how you establish your argument now if you believe Kyubei is a master at dodging.

All I can say is, one of us have a weird interpretation on that scene (which is not wrong, kinda like in a certain sitcom character found the Grinch to be a relatable and engaging character and rooting for the sun in frosty the snowman)

I am just glad that I learn something new everyday. I never would have dream the Homura vs Kyubei scene can be interpreted that way.
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Then they came for Toro (bluefin tuna) sushi,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sushi.
Then they came for me and force me to be a vegan by that time no one was left to speak up.
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Old 2011-02-08, 16:03   Link #136
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Slick_rick, didn't you just imply earlier on that my interpretation is a possible one? Isn't it possible that Kyubey was trying to dissuade Kyoko from attacking Sayaka?
Yes, its possible I never said it wasn't. Like I said there are a lot of possibilities though I tend to move away from that one considering that he didn't outright say that she shouldn't do it when he was given the chance. Now time for work...
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Old 2011-02-08, 16:08   Link #137
FlavorOfLife
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I didn't use "friend" because neither did Kyubey.
Then change the word from friend to guy but would make your example quite redundant. The MS are in a group of their own. You might be better off if you changed the John, Jack and the other fella into boxers or a obviously physically capable group. Still would not change the impact though

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I enlarged the number and strength of the people involved, because I think Kyubey intended to give Kyoko the sense that this other magical girl could be a real threat to her (i.e. I think that the word "irregular" has a somewhat heavier meaning in the anime than it does in my analogy, so I felt I needed to compensate for that somehow).
Then you're just supporting my case of Kyubei doing more for Kyoko than Sayaka hence not showing fairness nor being neutral because that was the entire point

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Come on, Flavor of Life, even Slick_rick is willing to admit the possibility of my interpretation here.
Its possible if Supervisor Mark is a social moron. Morons make almost anything possible in the area in which they are moronic

Mentioning theres just 1 possible threat in addition to the target is not the way to dissuade anyone. I could use the same idea here "Don't take the plane because it might crash" to dissuade someone from flying off to hawaii for their vacation.
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Old 2011-02-08, 16:08   Link #138
Decagon
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Because this anime lacks the things like sweatdrops, forehead veins, etc. All those little anime visual tics and exaggerated expressions that normally imply some sort of emotion. With them, a magical animal doesn't much in the way of conveying emotion.
Which is exactly why I've been using body language. I would like to know if you value those visual tics and exaggerated expressions more than the tone of their voices or non-exaggerated expressions.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
That's not entirely incorrect. If it was just for the wish and just for her friend, Sayaka wouldn't have attacked Kyoko. She very clearly wants to protect the people of the town *and* help Kamijou. The two positions aren't mutually exclusive.
The point there was that if there was no wish that allowed her to help Kamijo, she shouldn't have become an MG because she wasn't willing to risk her life just for the sake of others.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
No, he told her he had to find another one to protect the town; a distinct difference.
His specific line is, as per the roof top scene in episode 4:
Sayaka: Will someone take up Mami's task of protecting us from the witches?
Kyubey: This has been Mami's territory for a long time, but the other magical girls won't ignore an opening.
Kyubey: Another girl will be here soon to hunt witches.

And here's Chihiro's non-speedsub version
Kyubey: This has always been Mami's territory, but now that there's nobody guarding it, the other magical girls won't just sit back and watch.
Kyubey: There will soon be others coming to deal with the witches here.
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
You state "the wish is a tool to pick up on human weakness" as if it were a fact, but it's not. Your position is essentially that I want you to perform a service for me, but I won't offer you any compensation. And that's somehow better than someone paying their employee for work rendered.

That's a strange notion you have there. Considering everyone here would love to get paid for what they do, it also smacks of hypocrisy. I can just see the scene now...
Magical Madoka's system is very much the exception when comparing to other magical girl series where girls receive their power without compensation of any sort and are expected to fight villains or entities who are trying to subvert some aspect of society, the town they live in, or the well being of the earth. I think the burden of proof should rest on you as to why this series offers such a thing as compensation when the idea of helping your friends/community/planet is enough for those other girls who risk their lives.
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Old 2011-02-08, 16:17   Link #139
FlavorOfLife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
Finally got it. To be honest I kinda expect you complain that I "twist your words" or "That isn't what I really mean"...etc regarding Kyubei being a super martial art master that is dodging with ease.
Wow, you're very smart. To be honest i kinda expect you to expect me to say you "twist your words" or whatever.

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Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
If you fully embrace Kyubei dodge master theory then I have no other question. You can interpret any scene any way you want. I can fully see how you establish your argument now if you believe Kyubei is a master at dodging.
... its time like this when i need to facepalm

The basic point is this
i) He was able to evade 6 out of 7 shots when wounded
ii) The shot did not do visible damage (please feel free to point out where he had more red stuff showing after the shot)
iii) Homura did not use her shunpo movement. Why?

Final question
i) Is he easy to kill?

Seriously its just down to the final question.
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Old 2011-02-08, 16:36   Link #140
fukarming
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
Wow, you're very smart. To be honest i kinda expect you to expect me to say you "twist your words" or whatever.



... its time like this when i need to facepalm

The basic point is this
i) He was able to evade 6 out of 7 shots when wounded
ii) The shot did not do visible damage (please feel free to point out where he had more red stuff showing after the shot)
iii) Homura did not use her shunpo movement. Why?

Final question
i) Is he easy to kill?

Seriously its just down to the final question.
The real question is, if Modoka did not show up, will Kyubei be dead?
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They came first for sharks fin,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sharks fin.
Then they came for foie gras,I didn't speak up because I don't eat foie gras.
Then they came for Toro (bluefin tuna) sushi,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sushi.
Then they came for me and force me to be a vegan by that time no one was left to speak up.
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