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Old 2012-06-16, 05:08   Link #32401
ZeroXSEED
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Inside your head
@ Age
HOLY SHIT YOU ARE GENIUS!!!

*Quickly rush for the draft board*

@ Demi
Nah, at best transonic range (Mach 0.7 - Mach 1.2)
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Old 2012-06-16, 05:15   Link #32402
Eratas123
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Not always. Oga from Beelzebub has no goal, but you'd be hard pressed to find people calling him a tard or a loser. Makoto Inou also has a goal, but everyone calls him a douche. It's their character that matters.

Example: Kamijou Touma is the textbook example of a completely reactive Pinball Protagonist. Still one of the most popular heroes these days.

@ Demi - i watched the anime first, so i had no idea about the whole misandry thing since I figured they weren't too far off with the whole "War in 3 days thing". That said, I did a literal spit take when Ichika mentioned the complete flip in the novels and had to re-read it to make sure.
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Old 2012-06-16, 05:21   Link #32403
demino_hellsin
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Spoiler for race before attack:


Ichika is unlikeable because he NEVER puts his foot down. He never had a belief that he was willing to stick his neck out for. In short, he lacks the number 1 thing that gives men their manliness... And that thing he lacks would be BALLS
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Old 2012-06-16, 05:23   Link #32404
agetreme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eratas123 View Post
Not always. Oga from Beelzebub has no goal, but you'd be hard pressed to find people calling him a tard or a loser. Makoto Inou also has a goal, but everyone calls him a douche. It's their character that matters.

Example: Kamijou Touma is the textbook example of a completely reactive Pinball Protagonist. Still one of the most popular heroes these days.

@ Demi - i watched the anime first, so i had no idea about the whole misandry thing since I figured they weren't too far off with the whole "War in 3 days thing". That said, I did a literal spit take when Ichika mentioned the complete flip in the novels and had to re-read it to make sure.
I don't watch Beelzebub. No comment.

For Makoto.... that a pretty good writing if he is intended to be hated for being a douche bag.

Touma is reactive but he is interesting because he attract bad luck and has the personality of described as "Helping others even without being asked to".

Ichika is not even that active.... he is on the receiving end of being helped rather than helping others

I did mention: Protagonist with boring goal is interesting if fate conspire against them.

Edit: I have the feeling that Zero got it.... He got the gist of what I am implying.
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Old 2012-06-16, 05:30   Link #32405
Eratas123
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He did put his foot down that one time where he dragged Houki to lunch. Shame it never happened again after that.

@ Treme - Ichika does help others. His saving Houki from the Gospel and helping kanzashi just to name some incidents.

Also, how is fate not conspiring against him? His position is pretty unique.

Not trying to say he's the best, but he's hardly the worst and at least tries most of the time. Anime! Natsuru is the worst since in just about every scene he's in with plot he's staring at a wall like an idiot.
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Old 2012-06-16, 05:41   Link #32406
ZeroXSEED
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^ Seconded this, I don't hate Ichika as much as most people did ("Stupid' "Dense" "Idiot" etc). His harem though....

And yes, Age, I understand what you talking about.
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Old 2012-06-16, 05:41   Link #32407
agetreme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eratas123 View Post
He did put his foot down that one time where he dragged Houki to lunch. Shame it never happened again after that.
Like I say: Too many things didn't happened for Ichika....

Quote:
@ Treme - Ichika does help others. His saving Houki from the Gospel and helping kanzashi just to name some incidents.
Dude, he can't do it without Byakushiki intervening (shift up).

As for Kanzashi.... a little too late to change his impression of a spineless wimp who can't do anything on his own.

Quote:
Also, how is fate not conspiring against him? His position is pretty unique.
Unique in the name only. You didn't see him getting looked down by female (only one or two instant) or get bashed by anti-IS people/people who envy him.
====

Let me try to put the idea forming in my head into words:

Everybody have dreams.
For somebody to lose their goal/motivation , there must be an event so bad that him stop dreaming.

For Ichika to appear empty and dead inside, there must be an event so bad that he become like this.

Edit: guilt? (because he destroyed Chifuyu's title as champion and ended her career?)

Character development chance?
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Old 2012-06-16, 05:47   Link #32408
demino_hellsin
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He actually tried to do something for Chifuyu, get a part time job. She stamped that non-sense right out of him quickly. His stay in ISA? So he doesn't ruin her name of being a great IS pilot... not really seeing him succeed though.
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Old 2012-06-16, 05:47   Link #32409
Eratas123
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And Touma requires imagine breaker for just about anything. Doesn't diminish his achievements in any way, and neither does Byaku shiki do to Ichika.

Okay, so lets remember the fact that behind all that denseness he's 15 years old. Do you seriously expect every 15 year old to have long reaching hopes and dreams beyond getting past the next day or passing the net test? If yes, then you should look around you when you go to school next time. Even in College there are people who apply to courses with no thought about afterwards.

Hell, the anime Hyouka's MC's motto is "If I don't have to do it I won't. If I have to do it I'll do it quickly.". Stil a decent protag behind all that laziness and snarking. Personality plays a factor. If Ichika was 25 then I'd understand your complaints, but he's barely into his teens.
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Old 2012-06-16, 05:48   Link #32410
ZeroXSEED
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@ Age & Demi

What he claim in canon, it's never developed further after Laura arc finished.

As Eras said, there's always room for development due to his young age. The problem is... well, you know.
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Old 2012-06-16, 05:55   Link #32411
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The fact that the novel is cancelled?
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Old 2012-06-16, 05:58   Link #32412
demino_hellsin
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every time he makes progress the writ- I mean the exec- I mean the universe seems to peg him back 5 steps?
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Old 2012-06-16, 06:00   Link #32413
ZeroXSEED
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Both are true.
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Old 2012-06-16, 06:03   Link #32414
Eratas123
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I will admit this, though: In social situations, he can be a colossal dunce. I mean, saying: Rin, you look cute......like a squirell! is just asking to get goomba stopped since it sounds like an insult. The guy from Blade dance says it, but he acknowledges that he's doing it to troll people and that it's just for laughs.
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Old 2012-06-16, 06:06   Link #32415
agetreme
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Quote:
And Touma requires imagine breaker for just about anything. Doesn't diminish his achievements in any way, and neither does Byaku shiki do to Ichika.
IT'S THE STRUGGLE!!!

Touma only has imagine Breaker. He only has one hammer that has limited uses (because he has yet to know how to fully use it).

Even with gamebreaker ability, he still get beaten up to pulp more often then not but he is trying.

He always stand up in the end because of his idea.

Ichika has little of such struggle. He is just there like a wall.... which you can punch if you feel like it. Byakushiki suddenly shift up and save Ichika felt more like ass-pulled.... It's like a super hero suddenly gain new power without hard work.

It would have been better if Ichika stick with the original Shift during the fight with Sliver Gospel.....

Quote:
Okay, so lets remember the fact that behind all that denseness he's 15 years old. Do you seriously expect every 15 year old to have long reaching hopes and dreams beyond getting past the next day or passing the net test? If yes, then you should look around you when you go to school next time. Even in College there are people who apply to courses with no thought about afterwards.
You didn't get it..... I blame my skill in English.

Why do you think people claimed that real life is damn boring..... They lack dreams/motivation.

besides
Dream don't have to be long term.
It can be a series of short term goals chained together.
It can be as simple as getting lunch

Simple and boring but....
But to make that interesting.....
Getting Lunch by stealing your friend's lunchbox because you spent all your money on video game.

Your friend is a black belt martial artist... you are just a normal person. Things get interesting as you plot and plan the "downfall" of his lunchbox....

Or go head on to struggle to get a bite.

===
What I am trying to say is: what make things interesting is the struggle to reach the end/goal.... (I am assuming that everybody know Dream is the goal)
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Old 2012-06-16, 06:10   Link #32416
Eratas123
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Okay, I'm stopping now before this devolves into an argument. Maybe your standards fr heroes is higher than mine or something, so let's just leave it at that. I look at characters and compare them to the average human, so I'm not completely critical of them. I don't expect all of them to be a hero.
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Old 2012-06-16, 06:27   Link #32417
agetreme
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Well.... rather than saying that my standard of hero is higher(I admit, it is really high...Paragon level of high... and currently I am only taking about an average human main character....)

It is more like my standard for Literature is kind of high.... even though I am not really that aware of it because my English really isn't than good.

=

Eratas, everybody struggle with life....

I am only critical because I envy those who doesn't struggle with life.

Edit: Hell! I want childhood friend who is secretly in love with me!!!!
(edit: Even if she is a tsundere or a yandere...)

===

Moar edit: yes I think that is the feeling that I wanted to give my male lead...

Envy.....
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Old 2012-06-16, 06:34   Link #32418
ZeroXSEED
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^ Dude, high five.

On a more serious note, let's respect each other opinion, accepting it or not, this is discussion board after all.
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Old 2012-06-16, 06:51   Link #32419
demino_hellsin
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for once I agree with age.

The only girl in that harem that I feel he actually did something significant for was Charlotte... Everyone else seemed ready to hand in their V-card and more because he saved/beat them in a duel
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Old 2012-06-16, 06:57   Link #32420
ZeroXSEED
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
hand in their V-card and more because he saved/beat them in a duel
I'll have this in my "not to do" notes, thank you.
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