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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 4 Rating
Perfect 10 48 36.64%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 46 35.11%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 27 20.61%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 4.58%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 1.53%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.76%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.76%
Voters: 131. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-01-29, 06:52   Link #201
Mentar
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
One could say the same thing about, consider there are still quite a few questions you are dodging.
Fine. Only to those allegedly "dodged" questions.

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Once again, you haven't even looked into The Neverending Story 2 and 3 to learn why this is a bad thing. I'd ask you to even address this, but I predict you won't. Oh, let's watch my prediction come true!
Like I wrote before, I don't _care_ what wish models and their implications are used in different stories because it doesn't matter. At the moment, we don't know enough about the one used here. Heck, even Sayaka said so in ep4: "Thinking back, I realize that at that point I understood nothing. Of what it meant to wish for a miracle... or what it would cost." We don't either. So why should I waste my time about other stories here? It's pointless.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar
2) you refuse to acknowledge that it's perfectly logical to conclude that Madoka's apology to Mami _implies_ that she _has_ considered the wish, but feels too weak to do it.
Your #2 point is pure conjecture. You have no evidence to support it. It could be what she's thinking, but we don't know. This is another point you keep avoiding. Cite your evidence or retract your statement. I predict that you will do neither. Oh hey, I can make accurate predictions, too!
If you do, please don't forget to call me to award you your "Thread first!" achievement.

Nutbladder 9:06, while in Mami's apartment: "I'm sorry. I'm sorry I'm so weak!"

It should be obvious even for you that these words are directed at Mami. But for what would she be APOLOGIZING? She never did Mami any wrong. The only explanation which seems plausible to me is that she's apologizing for _being unable to resurrect her_. She can't become a MG and use her wish for that, because she can't control her fear.

This isn't "pure conjecture", it's simple logical deduction. It's not explicitly spelled out yet - presumably because the scriptwriter would prefer to avoid a discussion of it at this point. Knowing how he usually operates though, I'm pretty sure he will tackle the issue when the time is right.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar
She _does_ still want to do it, why do you believe she's been crying a river? She just feels _powerless_. She _cannot_ do it because she's too afraid.
[citation needed] I predict you will provide none. Because from where I'm standing, she told Kyube "Sorry." That seems to imply she doesn't want to do it.
Nutbladder, 6:31: "I know it's no fair, but I'm just too afraid. I just can't. Just remembering it makes me too scared to even breathe". The "I know it's no fair" is an additional indicator that she feels she's _wronging_ someone by her refusal. In my opinion, this relates to Mami, and is an additional clue that she HAS considered the resurrection wish, even if it's not shown, but she can't follow through with it. If you disagree, explain who she's apologizing to, and for what.

Quote:
You're the one who wants to call Sayaka selfish and Madoka selfless. Considering Sayaka made her wish to help someone, taking on the role of an MG and all that entails, I'd call her wish pretty damn selfless. Note that it was the same wish she was considering before. That implies a greater consideration for other people over herself.
Nutbladder, 1:21: "If I wished for his recovery, what would he think? Would he just thank me? Or... something more? I'm horrible."

Even Sayaka herself realizes that her _true intention_ behind her wish here is fundamentally selfish. And the discrepancy between her true desire and the formal wording of her wish is going to wreck her. That's so obvious that it doesn't even count as a prediction anymore. It's flabbergasting to me that you're even trying to debate the point.

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Originally Posted by guuchan View Post
Don't write it off just yet -- I haven't, hence my bet with Mentar is still on. I did mention in last episode's thread that I wouldn't bet on it happening right away.
Bah! guumeister, you're a wuss

The bet in itself was about the aftermath (that's also what you expected, if you're honest), I clarified it once more before you got cold feet and added the "in the end run is also fine" clause. Since I always said that I give Mami a revival roll in 12, what's the grounds of the bet?

Quote:
However, right now I'm kind of torn between who she is going to choose to revive, since it's hinting so heavily that Sayaka will soon be the next one. Of course, the show can be giving us the wrong hints purposefully; or, Madoka can be choosing to revive every single MG who died in battles (which then of course will happen only till near the end of the show). Yes, as shocking as it sounds, it's possible. I mean, she's being hinted as the strongest possible MG, so why can't she make a big wish? Kyuubee never implied or mentioned of any limitation to the wish.
Make up your mind, man

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2011-01-29 at 10:56.
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Old 2011-01-29, 07:15   Link #202
BaKaBaKaOtaKu
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man, i don't want mah madoka to have a plothole. so, i'd like to think that gen's being subtle with the reviving-mami wish. Probably madoka's considering it alrdy albeit quite vague to see. ah, don't really want holes in this awesome of a show! DX maybe, next episode will have it brought up..XDD
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Old 2011-01-29, 07:37   Link #203
scr
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there's something that has been bothering me since at least episode 3, and is really bugging me in episode 4. mainly, that this show have the flow and the character chemistry normally appearing in shounen (and seinen) series. let's see what if everyone are gender bent...

you ("Madoka") are just an ordinary guy with some pals that hang around with you ("Sayaka and Hitomi"). one day, you get this offer from a strange guy ("Mephistopheles Kyubey") that says that you can have super cool powers, but you must fight monsters. most shounen protagonists would immediately agree to the deal.

and then you get into the monster-hunting superhero job. since you're a new guy, you have an ace showing you the ropes ("Mami"). this ace is super awesome, and he's brightly idealistic. he's all about how superheroes are making the world better, one monster offed at a time.

however, an antihero appear. unlike the ace, he's jaded with all this monster-hunting job, and warn you that not everything is black and white. he also warn you that the ace is hiding something from you. (i think i've Seen It A Million Times... if i'm not mistaken, something exactly like this happens in the old FPS Deus Ex). the ace brush it aside, saying that the antihero is simply a messed-up dude best left alone.

and then the ace that you akogare very much dies messily in a mission. fortunately (or conveniently, perhaps), the antihero dude comes to save your arses. he then point you to the ugly truth of being a superhero. you begin to question things, but you dont get any word from the higher up strange guy that recruited you (perhaps instead you get a cold glare). it's all too fishy.

anyway, you can't get out of this mess. you need the power for your significant ones' sake, just like you need money to pay the bill. so you're forced to go through the gauntlet of monster-hunting as things spiral out of control and more horrific truths are revealed about the monsters, truths that ultimately invalidate the moral high ground of the superheroes.

ADDENDUM #1:
Oh, and to make things even merrier, there's this psycho guy who was once a superhero in traditional sense, but now he's just in it for the super cool powers and the sadism he can dish out ("Kyouko"). he's not above robbing other superheroes of their power either. the higher-up recruit guy tolerates him, wtf.

that's it.

well, i'm so not watching gay version of Madoka x Homura...
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Last edited by scr; 2011-01-29 at 08:03.
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Old 2011-01-29, 08:06   Link #204
Slick_rick
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This series has been quite good so far. I'm well in the camp of Madoka being a Magical girl in the past though I have a theory that goes a bit beyond that.

While I'm fairly confident in Madoka and Homura meeting in the past and their positions being reversed but I can't help wondering about the wish. It seems to me that the wish wasn't akin to "make Madoka a normal girl" but more likely to be one closer to "I want to be Madoka". In short, I believe Madoka and Homura switched lives and experiences and this happened fairly recently ago. Most likely at the start of ep1 is the start of Madoka's new life. I can't see Kyuubi waiting long to regain a powerful Magical girl. If I'm right then this might explain why Homura seemed upset at Sayaka becoming a magical girl. Sayaka was her friend, not Madoka's. Madoka's happy life was in fact Homura's life.

I mainly came up with this theory after rewatching episode 1. In it I number of things Homura said struck me. When she going down the hallway she knows exactly where she's going most likely cause she somehow knows the school well. She says to Madoka "there's no way you'd want to become someone else" in reference to if Madoka valued her friends and family. She said "You'd lose everything you have" and I think Homura knows this first hand.

I'm also pondering if Homura is in fact Madoka and Madoka is Homura. They could have switched names and possibly faces also.
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Old 2011-01-29, 08:07   Link #205
BaKaBaKaOtaKu
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@scr
L0L. you mean that almost gay relationship that nano-fate has? XDD i say, madoka x homura might end up that way. XDD it won't be really gay but close to it..XD that can still be interpreted as friendship although a very strong one.XD
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Old 2011-01-29, 08:22   Link #206
guuchan
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Bah! guumeister, you're a wuss

The bet in itself was about the aftermath (that's also what you expected, if you're honest), I clarified it once more before you got cold feet and added the "in the end run is also fine" clause. Since I always said that I give Mami a revival roll in 12, what's the grounds of the bet?
You did assert afterwards that Mami wouldn't be revived! Or something about your theory wouldn't be right etc. Please don't make me dig through your pile of posts to quote it.

Other than that, I have no objection to your speculation so far. I do expect surprises though, otherwise it's no fun, right?
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Old 2011-01-29, 09:40   Link #207
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Speaking personally, I have to disagree.

If a story fails to make me care about any of its characters, then there's no way I'd find that story entertaining.
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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
Someone already beat you to it!

And, yes, HONF is included!
Wow. I know that place is filled with spoilers, but that page is especially bad. *shakes head*
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Old 2011-01-29, 10:35   Link #208
FlavorOfLife
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Yeah, my inference is Madoka was crying because she missed her favorite TV show. But it's always going to be hard to convince people that this inference was correct. It's a good thing, though, that I don't have to show any evidence, and thus always claim that I'm right! After all, no one can prove that she wasn't thinking that.^^

I know some people might roll their eyes, but they just don't see the signs, man. After all, it doesn't need to be stated outright; we can infer that just fine. =)
Yes and Homura clenched her fists because a seagull flew over the great barrier reef while a mosquito rode on its back.

This is why i find teaching inferenced to those who keep falling back to "they never stated it outright!" to be a waste of time. Inference uses logic and empathy which most of those types fail completely.
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Old 2011-01-29, 11:32   Link #209
Himeji
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First half can best be described as "Oh the drama!".
It should be pointed out that Kyuubee does nothing to pressure Madoka and Sayaka into becoming magical girls. You could think he'd try to do that now that Mami is gone, but he doesn't. When Madoka says she doesn't want anymore, he simply walks away. That's proof he's not evil - which of course doesn't automatically mean he's good, but at least it means he's neutral.

In the second half, Makoka finds her friend under the influence of a witch. She follows her to an empty factory, where Sayaka and many mores still, also under the influence of the witch, want to commit mass suicide.
Only Madoka's curageous intervention of throwing away the bucket of chemical agents they wanted to use saves them.
Running away from the angry mob, Madoka flees into an empty room and locks the door. There however, she's kidnapped by the witch, which would've been the end of her - if it wasn't for magical girl Sayaka to save her and kill the witch.

After the fight is over, we get to know that Homura had been watching from the sidelines all along. She just hadn't given a damn about the people trying to commit mass suicide. If it wouldn't have been for Madoka's intervention, they would be all dead now. Also, after Madoka told her she didn't want to be a magical girl anymore, Homura dropped the "caring" facade and stopped giving a damn about her as well, so she didn't save Madoka after she was kidnapped by the witch this time. If it hadn't been for Sayaka to become a magical girl just in time to save Madoka, then Madoka would be dead now as well.

That's a definite proof that Homura isn't one of the good guys. She never cared about Madoka in the first place, all that she was interested in is that Madoka doesn't become a magical girl, so she doesn't get any competition. She doesn't give a damn about the people which are under the influence of a witch and are trying to commit suicide either, and so doesn't try to save them.
Also, she seems to be angry at Sayaka. I wouldn't be surprised if she openly attacked Sayaka in the future (actually, I would be surprised if she didn't.)

Finally, we see a new magical girl who is more evil than Homura and even plain out states that she's going to attack Sayaka.
With two others going to attack her, she'll have a hard time
Perhaps the two others attacking Sayaka will be what makes Madoka become a magical girl, so she can help Sayaka fighting against the other two girls.

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Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
Looking back, Kyubey calling in a new MG to fill Mami's place seems odd since Homura is already in the area.
It's not odd - because, as I pointed out, Homura is not interested in saving the poeple under the influence of a witch from their demise, so Kyuubee needs others to do that.

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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
Well, that's it. Without Mami being revived I'm done with paying attention to this show until the end. By which time Mami and Sayaka and ANYONE ELSE (important) who dies over the course of the series had better have been brought back to life, or I will track down this Urobuchii Gen and there will be a reckoning.

...You all can go back to what you were doing, now. I won't bother you anymore.
Not amused by this either... but Madoka still might use her wish to bring Mami back when she becomes a magical girl in order to help Sayaka fight back the attacks by Homura and Kyouko.
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Old 2011-01-29, 11:59   Link #210
Mentar
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Originally Posted by Himeji View Post
First half can best be described as "Oh the drama!".
It should be pointed out that Kyuubee does nothing to pressure Madoka and Sayaka into becoming magical girls. You could think he'd try to do that now that Mami is gone, but he doesn't. When Madoka says she doesn't want anymore, he simply walks away. That's proof he's not evil - which of course doesn't automatically mean he's good, but at least it means he's neutral.
"Proof"? And the fact that he was just conveniently around when Kamijou was tilting, pushing Sayaka into a contract, is just a mere coincidence?

Your summary omits the long part where Homura tried to comfort Madoka. Why would she do that?

Quote:
After the fight is over, we get to know that Homura had been watching from the sidelines all along.
How did that happen again? I remember seeing her _after_ Sayaka's intervention. You do realize you're building a huge accusation case on Homura on this mere unproven assumption of yours?

Quote:
She just hadn't given a damn about the people trying to commit mass suicide. If it wouldn't have been for Madoka's intervention, they would be all dead now. Also, after Madoka told her she didn't want to be a magical girl anymore, Homura dropped the "caring" facade and stopped giving a damn about her as well, so she didn't save Madoka after she was kidnapped by the witch this time. If it hadn't been for Sayaka to become a magical girl just in time to save Madoka, then Madoka would be dead now as well.
Wow. And I thought that at least after this episode you'd have to begin seeing the light ^_^;

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That's a definite proof that Homura isn't one of the good guys. She never cared about Madoka in the first place, all that she was interested in is that Madoka doesn't become a magical girl, so she doesn't get any competition.
Then why did she talk to Madoka after she refused becoming a MG? Why did she try to get Madoka off her guilt trip?

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Also, she seems to be angry at Sayaka. I wouldn't be surprised if she openly attacked Sayaka in the future (actually, I would be surprised if she didn't.)
You mean, Sayaka was always angry at her... like this time.

Quote:
Finally, we see a new magical girl who is more evil than Homura and even plain out states that she's going to attack Sayaka.
Well, I'd rate Kyoko "Chaotic Neutral". We'll see.
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Old 2011-01-29, 12:23   Link #211
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
*snip*
That's a very nice-sounding theory.
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“Phantom: Requiem for the Phantom” and “Superman vs. the Elite”

(Mostly accurate dialogue, but with a little editing to make it mesh better.)
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Old 2011-01-29, 13:00   Link #212
Kaijo
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Like I wrote before, I don't _care_ what wish models and their implications are used in different stories because it doesn't matter. At the moment, we don't know enough about the one used here. Heck, even Sayaka said so in ep4: "Thinking back, I realize that at that point I understood nothing. Of what it meant to wish for a miracle... or what it would cost." We don't either. So why should I waste my time about other stories here? It's pointless.
Why should you care? Okay, I make the statement: "If I were there, I'd wish that humans could no longer be affected by witches." Bam, problem solved. Who cares if I'm a magical girl now? Witches can't harm anyone anymore, so I come out ahead. Thus is something most people would think, so Madoka and crew are idiots for not thinking this.

So, we're watching a show filled with idiots. I suppose if you dumb down your cast, you can make any plot fit. Don't like it? You can't prove me wrong. you'll respond with "we don't know!" and I'd entirely agree: we don't.

Let me toss another example at you: Dragonball Z. We all know the dragonballs can grant any wishes, so what happens when Vegeta and Nappa are on their way to Earth?

Krillin wishes for the Saiyans to be killed. It was an obvious wish, and someone had to address. For all it's faults, and the somewhat awkward explanation that followed ("I can't fulfill wishes beyond the power of the one who created me") made some sense. They at least addressed it, and put some constraints on wishing.

Our lovable DBZ heroes are smarter than Madoka and crew. Toriyama is looking like a better writer than the writers of Madoka.

Quote:
Nutbladder 9:06, while in Mami's apartment: "I'm sorry. I'm sorry I'm so weak!"

It should be obvious even for you that these words are directed at Mami. But for what would she be APOLOGIZING? She never did Mami any wrong. The only explanation which seems plausible to me is that she's apologizing for _being unable to resurrect her_. She can't become a MG and use her wish for that, because she can't control her fear.

This isn't "pure conjecture", it's simple logical deduction. It's not explicitly spelled out yet - presumably because the scriptwriter would prefer to avoid a discussion of it at this point. Knowing how he usually operates though, I'm pretty sure he will tackle the issue when the time is right.
The problem is, you are assuming your explanation is the only correct one. Just like someone else would assume that their explanation for the events of 9/11 is the only correct one. You have to first admit to yourself that you could be wrong. I've already done this; my explanation may not be the correct one; I just acknowledge it as one of many.

So let me postulate another explanation: Madoka is simply saying "I'm sorry. I'm so weak" because she can't keep her promise to be an MG since she's scared now. She's not strong enough to overcome her fear of death. So she's apologizing to Mami for not being able to live up to the expectation.

Or perhaps apologizing because she didn't become an MG sooner so she could have helped Mami.

Or apologizing that she was still too weak in her heart to become an MG at that time, and kept putting it off.

There are more explanations than yours. I don't know the correct one, but at least I can admit that.

I'm really waiting for next episode, or one down the line, where Madoka suddenly goes: "Huh? I can revive Mami with a wish?" thus proving she was never thinking about the possibility before now, when you're trying to tell me she is. I'd make that prediction, but I'm also wondering whether the show will actually address it, or leave it as an elephant in the room.

Quote:
Nutbladder, 6:31: "I know it's no fair, but I'm just too afraid. I just can't. Just remembering it makes me too scared to even breathe". The "I know it's no fair" is an additional indicator that she feels she's _wronging_ someone by her refusal. In my opinion, this relates to Mami, and is an additional clue that she HAS considered the resurrection wish, even if it's not shown, but she can't follow through with it. If you disagree, explain who she's apologizing to, and for what.
I've seen bigger leaps of logic in the old Adam West Batman show, but not by much. Again, you assume; and you know what they say when you assume something.

Quote:
Nutbladder, 1:21: "If I wished for his recovery, what would he think? Would he just thank me? Or... something more? I'm horrible."

Even Sayaka herself realizes that her _true intention_ behind her wish here is fundamentally selfish. And the discrepancy between her true desire and the formal wording of her wish is going to wreck her. That's so obvious that it doesn't even count as a prediction anymore. It's flabbergasting to me that you're even trying to debate the point.
It's human nature to feel guilt about something that isn't our fault. Just because Sayaka feels guilty, doesn't mean she actually is. I'd further postulate that, just by feeling guilty, she is acknowledging her potential selfishness; a lesser person wouldn't do that, and just go straight ahead.

It's flabbergasting to me that you just make up your mind and decide "This is the way it is; I've deduced everything and I can't possibly be wrong; and you're wrong for even thinking differently."


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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
Yes and Homura clenched her fists because a seagull flew over the great barrier reef while a mosquito rode on its back.

This is why i find teaching inferenced to those who keep falling back to "they never stated it outright!" to be a waste of time. Inference uses logic and empathy which most of those types fail completely.
Perhaps you weren't taught this, but inference can be wrong. Anyone who has lived with a girlfriend or a wife knows this. She infers that you know what she wants, and gets flabbergasted when you don't. Trying to infer something not stated is literally a guessing game. It's the root cause of miscommunication.

Everyone is unique, shaped by their own preconceptions and experiences. Thus, everyone sees something different, infers something different, and is confused why anyone else would see something else. You ever see the "old woman/young woman" picture? Which did you see first? Did you ever see two people argue about it really was? That's what's going on now.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
"Proof"? And the fact that he was just conveniently around when Kamijou was tilting, pushing Sayaka into a contract, is just a mere coincidence?
Convenient, perhaps, but I infer from Sayaka's firm face that she had already made up her mind. If Kyube hadn't shown up, odds are Sayaka would have gone looking for him. If she hadn't decided, Kyube might not have shown up.

See, this is another example where you see one thing, and other people see something different. Yet, everyone else has to be wrong, and you have to be right. Can't you just say, "Hmm, yeah, that could be the case, too. I suppose we won't really know until they tells us?"

Is it really that hard to admit that other people's inferences could be correct?

Quote:
How did that happen again? I remember seeing her _after_ Sayaka's intervention. You do realize you're building a huge accusation case on Homura on this mere unproven assumption of yours?
So, only your unproven assumptions can be accepted, then? No one else is allowed? I'm not saying he's right, but I can at least say, "Hmm, it's possible. We don't really know for sure."

I personally think some of what Himeji said isn't quite right or true, but I can at least admit he might be right. There's no real evidence one way or the other.

Can your mind be just as open?
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Old 2011-01-29, 13:13   Link #213
Himeji
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
"Proof"? And the fact that he was just conveniently around when Kamijou was tilting, pushing Sayaka into a contract, is just a mere coincidence?
"Pushing"? He didn't do any pushing there at all. Just as before, when Madoka said she didn't want to become a magical girl, he didn't do any pushing as well, and he didn't try to change her mind about it - he simply left.
Same here, he didn't di any pushing as well. Sayaka made the wish all by herself, because she didn't want her friend to suffer any longer.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Your summary omits the long part where Homura tried to comfort Madoka. Why would she do that?
Easy, because she wants Madoka to fell good about doing the thing she wanted her to do without Madoka having any regrets about it later.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
How did that happen again? I remember seeing her _after_ Sayaka's intervention.
Yes, we saw her *after* it. Right after Sayaka had finished off the witch, they found Homura standing there. She had been standing there watching everything, but she had neither cared about the people trying to commit mass suicide and thus didn't try to stop them from doing it, nor did she care about Madoka anymore, now that Madoka did what Homura wanted her to do, and thus didn't come to save her from the witch.

Homura's thoughts were probably: "I'll just do it as usual: watch and wait until the witch has killed the other magical girl before I step in. That way, not only I get rid of a competing magical girl, but also the witch is already weakened, making it easier for me to kill her and reap the rewards all by myself."

While that worked fine for her many times already (she mentioned that she's seen countless magical girls die) and also last time, when she waited until Mami was killed (she could've ward off that chain ribbon easily if she wanted), this time, she underestimated Sayaka, thinking: "Sayaka is a total n00b, the witch will wipe the floor with her." However, Sayaka proved to be able to do it, which is why Homura was so angry when they found her standing there afterwards.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Wow. And I thought that at least after this episode you'd have to begin seeing the light ^_^;
Actually, I *have* seen the light, already a good while ago. It's the others who haven't seen the light yet.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
You mean, Sayaka was always angry at her... like this time.
Sayaka was angry at her for good reason, like threatening Madoka, or that little arrogant speech she gave at the end of ep. 3.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Well, I'd rate Kyoko "Chaotic Neutral". We'll see.
With voicing her clear intent of beating up Sayaka, she seems much more like Neutral Evil to me.
"Chaotic Neutral" would be fitting for Homura. Definitely "Chaotic", since she's fighting against the order created by the magical girls. Since she didn't intervene to help neither the people in the factory nor save Madoka from the witch, the can only be "Neutral" or "Evil" as second part - if she starts fighting Sayaka (and Madoka as well, should she decide to become one to help Sayaka), I'd rather put her as "Evil".
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Old 2011-01-29, 13:20   Link #214
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I see no plot hole you speak of. I am more of the approach advocating to wait to see the show as a whole before throwing plot hole, asspull and red herrings accusations; so, while those accusations were thrown a lot during the Geass R2 airing, the naysayers finally had their reasons and material to throw them again when the show was over, and fans got the same to refute it.

Mentar also have a valid point about the wish system. It should not be judged with Dragon Ball or the Monkey's Paw as a measuring stick because it is its own universe that is, at the moment, unveiling its rules little bit by little bit. We have no way to judge the system's workings until we see the whole picture. However, evidences in episodes are pushing the system toward the Monkey's Paw end of the scale which is "I could wish Mami back but would not my motive to do so corrupt the wish? Am I guaranted to have 100% Vanilla Mami brought back? I should hold back until I know more."
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Old 2011-01-29, 13:28   Link #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
I see no plot hole you speak of. I am more of the approach advocating to wait to see the show as a whole before throwing plot hole, asspull and red herrings accusations; so, while those accusations were thrown a lot during the Geass R2 airing, the naysayers finally had their reasons and material to throw them again when the show was over, and fans got the same to refute it.

Menta also have a valid point about the wish system. It should not be judged with Dragon Ball or the Monkey's Paw as a measuring stick because it is its own universe that is, at the moment, unveiling its rules little bit by little bit. We have no way to judge the system's workings until we see the whole picture. However, evidences in episodes are pushing the system toward the Monkey's Paw end of the scale.
So, you are advocating that no one should make assumptions, while you make an assumption? And you're saying that wishes can't be compared? Under that criteria, we can never compare anything to anything else, because obviously everything is different. Which means all those fine literary critics are totally wrong in comparing works to each other.

However, to a degree, I do agree about waiting and seeing. All I can say now is that I see an issue. I hope the show does address and resolve the issue, because the show WILL have a plot hole if it's not addressed. And I've seen nothing that indicates this wish system is like a Monkey's paw. Mami got exactly what she wished for. Sayaka got exactly what she wished for (presumably; we never see her state it directly). Mami healed, and Kamijou's hand was healed. We'll have to see on the latter, but there were no downsides or "not granted quite the way you wanted" issues with Mami's wish. We can presume Kyube told her she'd be an MG so she would know some of what she was getting into, but obviously she didn't have a lot of time to fully consider.

In short, not enough evidence to determine what kind of wish system, one way or the other. All we know is that the sky is the limit, according to Kyube.

If you can solve all problems with a wish, and no one in the show even thinks about or considers it when plenty of people in the audience can see it... what does that say about the cast?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
There is no indication or proof that demonstrates that Homura was standing there watching the mass suicide or the witch battle.
Klashikari pretty much says it: There is no proof for a lot of our assumptions. We have to recognize that. We can't tell someone else they are wrong, when we ourselves are arguing from a position that is an assumption with direct proof. We can't assume Homura was standing there the whole time, and we can't assume that Kyube deliberately tempted Sayaka by appearing there, and we can't assume Madoka was thinking about reviving Mami.

We can't say one way or the other. If you want to ignore everything else I've said, and remember one point, this is it.

Last edited by Kaijo; 2011-01-29 at 13:49.
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Old 2011-01-29, 13:35   Link #216
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My god, Kaijo stop with this. That's getting ridiculous.

We are telling you what we are seeing with what the show is showing us.
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Old 2011-01-29, 13:36   Link #217
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"Pushing"? He didn't do any pushing there at all. Just as before, when Madoka said she didn't want to become a magical girl, he didn't do any pushing as well, and he didn't try to change her mind about it - he simply left.
Same here, he didn't di any pushing as well. Sayaka made the wish all by herself, because she didn't want her friend to suffer any longer.
You don't need direct method to pressure someone to do X or Y.
As soon as it was "evident" that Madoka and Sayaka wouldn't take the job, he just left despite it was very likely Madoka would be involved with more troubles considering her potential.
And "conveniently", kyuubey was present when Kamijo was having a fit. If it isn't a presence that spells an outright "hey girl, -I- have the solution, come grab it", then I have no idea what it is.
As much as Kyuubey wasn't openly pushy, he is definitely being extremely persistent in turning Madoka and Sayaka into MG, be it subtly or not.
Quote:
Easy, because she wants Madoka to fell good about doing the thing she wanted her to do without Madoka having any regrets about it later.
If Homura was really ill intentioned towards Madoka, why would she actually give her peace of mind? Actually, leaving Madoka into a gloomy and depressing state would be purely advantageous, in your assumption that Homura is "evil".

Quote:
Yes, we saw her *after* it. Right after Sayaka had finished off the witch, they found Homura standing there. She had been standing there watching everything, but she had neither cared about the people trying to commit mass suicide and thus didn't try to stop them from doing it, nor did she care about Madoka anymore, now that Madoka did what Homura wanted her to do, and thus didn't come to save her from the witch.
There is no indication or proof that demonstrates that Homura was standing there watching the mass suicide or the witch battle.
Quote:
Homura's thoughts were probably: "I'll just do it as usual: watch and wait until the witch has killed the other magical girl before I step in. That way, not only I get rid of a competing magical girl, but also the witch is already weakened, making it easier for me to kill her and reap the rewards all by myself."
It does not make any sense whatsoever: Homura was shown competent enough to deal with Charlotte, despite Mami was hardly a rookie but still got killed. If your assumption is correct, it is a dumbest course of action, considering it has a very high risk that Sayaka and Madoka would become stronger over time, gaining more experience.
You would rather have a direct obliteration of the competition (aka killing the girls for real before any contract).

Quote:
While that worked fine for her many times already (she mentioned that she's seen countless magical girls die) and also last time, when she waited until Mami was killed (she could've ward off that chain ribbon easily if she wanted), this time, she underestimated Sayaka, thinking: "Sayaka is a total n00b, the witch will wipe the floor with her." However, Sayaka proved to be able to do it, which is why Homura was so angry when they found her standing there afterwards.
Where does this assumption about Homura being able to break that chain ribbon comes from?
Why would she say "impossible" when Mami's death was quite obvious when her chain got dissolved? Your assumptions really come from nowhere.
Quote:
Sayaka was angry at her for good reason, like threatening Madoka, or that little arrogant speech she gave at the end of ep. 3.
What good reason is it to be angry at someone who was rightfully warning about the high risks in being a MG?

Honestly, the way how Homura is characterized in the series so far is pretty obvious for many: that she has repressed her personal feelings in order to carry out her duty without involving anyone. And she has a very obvious priority on Madoka's safety.
All the assumptions you make do not prove that Homura is evil one bit. In fact, you are starting from this basis leading to these assumptions.

From a neutral perspective, I see no hard evidence of any circumstancial / schemed plot present at all.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2011-01-29 at 13:49.
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Old 2011-01-29, 14:58   Link #218
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ok, just watched it...wow Madoka and her friend are basically in a lose-lose situation...if they don't have the power then they will be constantly in great danger because for some reasons they always find ways to get involved...and when they get the power, the tragic fate is unavoidable...this is so sad

and...don't know if this is the sub issue, but do others still have the memory of Mami anymore?? in the early part of the show, madoka suggests that no one has the memory of Mami anymore, then Homura just says Mami will be treated as the missing girl...which one is correct?? or the sub I watch is wrong?? Thanks in advance
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Old 2011-01-29, 15:00   Link #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
and...don't know if this is the sub issue, but do others still have the memory of Mami anymore?? in the early part of the show, madoka suggests that no one has the memory of Mami anymore, then Homura just says Mami will be treated as the missing girl...which one is correct?? or the sub I watch is wrong?? Thanks in advance
From what I've seen, since Mami had no relatives and was living alone, it will take awhile before anyone reports her missing. Only Homura, Madoka, and Sayaka know how she died, and obviously they can't tell anyone. So everyone else will have their memories of Mami, just not what happened to her.

Madoka is mainly stressing that she'll never forget Mami.

At least, that's my take on all of it.
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Old 2011-01-29, 15:06   Link #220
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From what I've seen, since Mami had no relatives and was living alone, it will take awhile before anyone reports her missing. Only Homura, Madoka, and Sayaka know how she died, and obviously they can't tell anyone. So everyone else will have their memories of Mami, just not what happened to her.
Yeah, she has no immediate family or close relatives and therefore lives alone. And because your body stays in the witch's world (is there an official name for it?) when you die, no one will find her body. So she will be marked as absent for several days until they start to suspect something and then eventually a missing child case will be made with the police. Most missing child cases are never closed or declared deceased. So no one will know that Mami died, let alone died saving Madoka, Sayaka, and everyone else. Chances are they will think she was a troubled teen who ran away from home and people look down on that sort of thing, so she may get a negative legacy too. It really is cruel.
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