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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 4 Rating
Perfect 10 48 36.64%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 46 35.11%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 27 20.61%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 4.58%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 1.53%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.76%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.76%
Voters: 131. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-01-28, 16:43   Link #141
applejuice
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Originally Posted by Spinell View Post
Well, unlike most people I think that Sayaka can life to the end of the series. She got a thought line referring to future events (like Madoka did).
It's a staff who faked the entire opening sequence. Urobuchi's way of tragedy is about giving hope and dreams to the characters (and readers too...), who does not know it is actually the paths towards absolute despair, until the end.

Sayaka will be forgotten by Kamijou. That's enough death signal for me.
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Old 2011-01-28, 16:44   Link #142
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
What will happen to Kamijou? Before the accident, him and Sayaka's relationship had absolutely nothing. Sayaka was Kamijou's mere audience, and that was the reality.
The official site states they're childhood friends, so I don't think she was just audience for him.

But I agree about the theme of facing reality. In fact, I think Madoka's previous wish of being a MG was escaping reality too. She wanted to gain self-worth by being an MG. But now she's changing, now she's taking the reins of her life by her own, no magic involved. I like the message on that.
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Old 2011-01-28, 16:46   Link #143
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Rather arrogant, eh? You're ultimately right because you see everything, and no one else can possibly be wrong?
Yeah, whatever buddy. Strange that I emphasized time and time again where we disagreed and I yet thought that you had a point or a valid theory different to mine. Guess you are as bad as spotting those lines as you are as spotting negative flags in the show.

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And plot holes are to be ignored because you say so?
Just because you say something is a plot hole doesn't necessarily make it so. Most of them are created by your peculiar perception of the show in the first place. But please do tell us what "plot holes" you have spotted. I'll gladly try to help out.

The one you explicitly listed - that no girl wished for Mami to be revived - is no "plot hole" at all. Sayaka had a much more compelling wish of her own, and Madoka apologized to Mami (which I consider related to the fact that she couldn't help Mami due to her inability to overcome her fear to be a MG). You don't need to accept this reasoning. But a plot hole it ain't.

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Um, that pretty much describes life in general. Hate to break it to you, but we're all gonna die one day. What matters is not life or death, but how we spend our lives. If someone finds it fulfilling to fight as an MG, then who cares if they die in a two months or two decades?
See, this is what I mean with "peculiar perception". Homura has been dropping ominous warnings from ep1. Tons of warning flags were scattered all over the place. Mami friggen DIED just an episode ago. And you write stuff like that, as if living as MG or as normal person would ultimately make no difference. You completely ignore the huge sacrifice that you nonchalantly _demand_ from Madoka (you even call her unsuited for being a MG if she doesn't comply with your demand).

Makes me feel I'm wasting my time.

Quote:
"I'm nothing, I'm worthless, I can't do anything. I wish I could be a superhero and save people so I could feel good about myself!"
It's not the wish Madoka talked about. She said that she wanted to be useful to others - something she felt she couldn't be up to now because of her ineptitude. And that being able to do that would make her happy.

See the difference? If not, please nevermind.

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Your issue is that you have this construct of the show in your mind. You've made up your mind, decided this is the way the show has to go, and so you're jamming facts around your conclusion, and tossing out ones you don't feel fit. There's a word for people like that. It's how we get our right and left winged pundits like Glenn Beck, continuing a narrative despite what the facts say. And we'll cherry pick out intelligence to support our position.
With one difference: We're not talking about airy things like political theories. We're talking about predictions which can be objectively verified, and so far, I have been right and you have been wrong. The facts confirmed ME, not you. So, thanks alot for the factually unwarranted reference to Glenn Beck, one of my most-despised people list entries.

I have no problem at all accepting different theories, if they are sound. I simply took some time pointing out where I disagree with yours. Just forget it. Let's see how things develop.
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Old 2011-01-28, 16:48   Link #144
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
My main focus is, and always has been, that I feel the show needs to address something that it has so far failed to address. Whether your predictions or right or not ultimately doesn't matter; good writing demands it be addressed. I take it you haven't watching The Neverending Story 2 or 3, either.
Yeah, and that's why I said it's better to wait and see before calling everything a plot hole. We still don't even reach half of the story yet.
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Old 2011-01-28, 16:54   Link #145
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
The official site states they're childhood friends, so I don't thing she was just audience for him.

But I agree about the theme of facing reality. In fact, I think Madoka's previous wish of being a MG was escaping reality too. She wanted to gain self-worth by being an MG. But now she's changing, now she's taking the reins of her life by her own, no magic involved. I like the message on that.
Official site is a troll. They once put 'Mami died miserably during the fight with witch' after the third episode, then it is now gone. Childhood friend part is true, but the problem is that Sayaka's desire isn't about just being 'friends'. Even more cruel symbolism is that Kyuube is 'invisible' to everyone other than Mahou Shoujos; Kamijou doesn't want anything from Sayaka, nor knows the fact that Sayaka is risking her life for him. Sayaka's feeling will never approach Kamijou, which was her true wish, not curing him.

Madoka's previous wish was not from the heart, that's for sure. What she chose was accepting the 'REALITY' that her wish was NOT truthful, thus giving up her hope of becoming Mahou Shoujo. Sayaka, on the other hand, did not want to accept that her wish is not from her heart. That's the difference.
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Old 2011-01-28, 16:56   Link #146
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Self-worth is not something you should look for in an external source. It's definitely not something you should be wishing for. It can only come from yourself. Not only I think is selfish but also a bit unhealthy.
Again, she did not wish "Make me happy". She said, that she WANTED TO BE ABLE TO HELP OTHERS, something which she felt she was unable to do up to now. She said "that would make me happy" - as in, it's one RESULT of what she really wanted. She is not WISHING for it.

I'm insisting on this part because I honestly think that this is what the show is gonna be about: The fundamental difference between Madoka's wish and the "common MG's" wishes. Unless I completely misunderstand you and Kaijo, your point is "there isn't really a difference between their wishes, both are selfish".

Yes, just a theory. But we'll see over time if my hunch is correct or yours.
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Old 2011-01-28, 16:56   Link #147
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
This could be true. But if I were in Madoka's position, I'd at least wonder if it was possible, even if it wasn't for whatever reason the writers want to use.
You seemed to have missed my other point. They didn't bring it up yet because the answer would change Sayaka's decision to become an MG. She doesn't yet know that what she did to Kamijo is also a latent curse on him contingent on her success as an MG. If they had asked Kyube about it already and he gave an answer along the lines of what I speculated, that would change the plot, or at least the dramatic reveal. And Kyube can always say "you didn't ask" because they didn't.
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Old 2011-01-28, 17:00   Link #148
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@Mentar: I think you can approach it in different way. Madoka's wish at first on surface was 'becoming cool person like Mami-san' and she said it herself. I do think her true wish is 'helping others', but herself does not know it 'yet'. That's why she needs more time to become mahou shoujo.

Sayaka's exactly opposite. Her intention is pure, curing kamijou, but her true desire is dating with Kamijou and she knows it. She failed to accept it, escape from the reality. This is kind of irony between those two.

Sorry if I miss lead you. I didn't really read the entire conversation went on pages before..
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Old 2011-01-28, 17:02   Link #149
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
Official site is a troll. They once put 'Mami died miserably during the fight with witch' after the third episode, then it is now gone.
I'm looking at it from a meta perspective. I think it's gone so as not to spoil people who come to find information about the shows before they actually go watch it. I don't think it foreshadows Mami coming Back From The Dead.

Don't mind me, just wanted to point out how certain things should not be new grief seeds speculah seeds.
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Old 2011-01-28, 17:04   Link #150
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I'm looking at it from a meta perspective. I think it's gone so as not to spoil people who come to find information about the shows before they actually go watch it. I don't think it foreshadows Mami coming Back From The Dead.

Don't mind me, just wanted to point out how certain things should not be new grief seeds speculah seeds.
I well know that fact. I was only saying it since it alternatively means we shouldn't really believe or take seriously on anything that is on the synopsis/character descriptions, too. I don't think Mami will ever come back to life, either.
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Old 2011-01-28, 17:07   Link #151
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Unless I completely misunderstand you and Kaijo, your point is "there isn't really a difference between their wishes, both are selfish".
I don't know about Kaijo, but Madoka's wish until episode 3 was selfish. It was escaping from reality. But now is different. The Madoka who has the guts to help her friend even though she doesn't have any powers is not the same Madoka who felt she needed said magical powers to help. She's changing and growing.

In the end your theory may be correct, but you should take in mind that after episode 3 Madoka's wish of "becoming a magical girl" may not mean the same than it did before. Before episode 3, her wish was "tainted" by her need for self-worth, but now she's on the path to gain that confidence on her own, before becoming a magical girl.
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Old 2011-01-28, 17:13   Link #152
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I don't know about Kaijo, but Madoka's wish until episode 3 was selfish. It was escaping from reality. But now is different. The Madoka who has the guts to help her friend even though she doesn't have any powers is not the same Madoka who felt she needed said magical powers to help.

In the end your theory may be correct, but you should take in mind that after episode 3 Madoka's wish of "becoming a magical girl" may not mean the same than it did before.
I think calling it 'selfish' is a bit exaggeration, I think Madoka and Sayaka were simply naive. They just thought mahou shoujo is cool thing so they wanted to be one. They also had delicious 'BONUS' of granting one of their wish, that's about it. Now, they realised that being mahou shoujo is no fuckin joke, thus now taking their wishes a lot more seriously.

Beside, I don't even think the first three episodes as a part of this story. They are more of 'prologue'. The real story begins now as you said, having Mami's death as a central base.
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Old 2011-01-28, 17:17   Link #153
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Oh Kyoko...
You're going to be a bad girl. A "very bad bad girl", Kyoko.
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Old 2011-01-28, 17:19   Link #154
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
I think calling it 'selfish' is a bit exaggeration, I think Madoka and Sayaka were simply naive.
I suppose it's a bit strong. I was just using the terms that were circulating on the conversation. But yeah, naive may be more accurate.
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Old 2011-01-28, 17:19   Link #155
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
*Mami was lonely being mahou shoujo, thus she wanted more mahou shoujo who can support her.
It's true that Mami was lonely being a solo magical girl against all these witches, and when Madoka offered a duo she was enlightened by it and eventually became happier. But I don't think that she just supports girls becoming magical girls naturally, just sorta like a job for her. She helps Kyubey get more girls because of the eternal debt she has for the wish she made.

Quote:
Either way, being 'Mahou Shoujo' pretty much means 'throwing everything you had'. At this time, I really wonder what would've been Homura's wish. For instance, she seems to know about Madoka a lot, even though Madoka has never seen her. Homura was being extremely sarcastic about Madoka's 'I will remember you!' claim, which wonders me whether if memory madoka has is actually true. Whatever it is, I'm pretty sure Homura knows either Madoka's past or about future, and her wish might be related to these. Or even maybe...
Spoiler:
Something is leading me towards the very first episode strangely... Madoka had a dream about Homura and her getting beated up badly. Maybe it was "Madoka" that wished for time to reset after experiencing the horror of Homura getting slaughtered. Then it was only "Homura" that still seems to remember Madoka after the wish was granted.
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Old 2011-01-28, 17:24   Link #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Yeah, whatever buddy. Strange that I emphasized time and time again where we disagreed and I yet thought that you had a point or a valid theory different to mine. Guess you are as bad as spotting those lines as you are as spotting negative flags in the show.
Calm down, dude; I did read that. I thought you would have accurately spotted things in my post that talked about that. Guess you are as bad at spotting those, as you are about the show.

See how that can go both ways?

I just felt that you were coming across as "You missed all the signs that I see, therefore you fail and are wrong." If this is incorrect, please say so, because that's how it seems. My counterpoint to this was that we humans see "signs" all the time of things, ie, 9/11 conspiracy theories. It doesn't mean that we're right; it could just mean we're picking up on things that aren't really there. I only advised that it might be the case where you're seeing things.

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Just because you say something is a plot hole doesn't necessarily make it so. Most of them are created by your peculiar perception of the show in the first place. But please do tell us what "plot holes" you have spotted. I'll gladly try to help out.
The wish system, and how no one has brought up whether bringing back Mami with a wish is possible. Nor ending the series right here and now.

Since you haven't responded as to whether you've seen the Neverending Story 2 and 3, allow me to briefly state things. In those movies, the hero was given an amulet that granted his every wish. With one wish, he could have solved the problems and ended the movie at anytime, but he never does. Instead, the writers didn't even have him consider it, making him appear dumber and dumber as things went on.

That's the big plot hole here, but I'll get to it a bit more in a sec...

Quote:
The one you explicitly listed - that no girl wished for Mami to be revived - is no "plot hole" at all. Sayaka had a much more compelling wish of her own, and Madoka apologized to Mami (which I consider related to the fact that she couldn't help Mami due to her inability to overcome her fear to be a MG). You don't need to accept this reasoning. But a plot hole it ain't.
No, you have it wrong. It's not that no girl wished for it, but that no one even considered it. That's called passing the idiot ball. Even if, for whatever reason, it's not followed through on, it still needs to be addressed.

That's the big 2,000 lb elephant in the room that, for some reason, people are real hesitant to talk about.

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See, this is what I mean with "peculiar perception". Homura has been dropping ominous warnings from ep1. Tons of warning flags were scattered all over the place. Mami friggen DIED just an episode ago. And you write stuff like that, as if living as MG or as normal person would ultimately make no difference. You completely ignore the huge sacrifice that you nonchalantly _demand_ from Madoka (you even call her unsuited for being a MG if she doesn't comply with your demand).
I don't ignore it at all. Madoka was told from day 1 what a magical girl is all about. Despite that, she still wanted to do it, and now suddenly she doesn't. If it was selfless as you claim, then she should still want to do it. After all, the rationale is still there: she can still help people. Why doesn't she do it, then? Because she doesn't want to risk her life.

As a side note, I think this is a valid reason; I might make the same choice. But that doesn't escape the fact that she is more concerned with her own survival, than the survival of her dear friend and everyone else. When you are more concerned about yourself over other people, it's called "selfish." That doesn't make it wrong, but it does make it selfish. You try to equate selfish with being wrong, but there are subtle differences between those terms.

But let me repeat the quotes that Kazu-kun brought up:

"I'm slow and there isn't really anything good about me. So if I could be cool and wonderful like Mami, that would make me happy"

Where are other people in there? No where. It's all about Madoka. You like to tell me about missing signs, but why are you missing this?

And suddenly, when the prospect of death is made very real, she's no longer about helping people. Imagine that. It doesn't make Madoka a bad person; it makes her human, but it does expose that her desire was born of selfishness, out of what she'd get out of it, then genuinely helping people.

If I want to help people, and that's my major concern, there isn't much that's going to stop me.

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It's not the wish Madoka talked about. She said that she wanted to be useful to others - something she felt she couldn't be up to now because of her ineptitude. And that being able to do that would make her happy.
Ineptitude? As wikipedia says, [citation needed].

Quote:
With one difference: We're not talking about airy things like political theories. We're talking about predictions which can be objectively verified, and so far, I have been right and you have been wrong. The facts confirmed ME, not you. So, thanks alot for the factually unwarranted reference to Glenn Beck, one of my most-despised people list entries.
We can go with 9/11 conspiracy theories, too. You know the ones: people who call us fools for not noticing all the signs that point to it being an inside job by the government, order by the illuminati at the behest of aliens. You don't see the signs?

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I have no problem at all accepting different theories, if they are sound. I simply took some time pointing out where I disagree with yours. Just forget it. Let's see how things develop.
We're not talking about what develops; we're talking about Madoka's motivations. You want to claim Sayaka's as selfish, and Madoka's as selfless, when the facts as they are don't support that. For the record, I can see them as either, but you have to acknowledge that either both are selfish, or that both are selfless, by whatever criteria you use.

You can see them both as selfless: Sayaka making a wish for someone else and risking her life to do it, and Madoka for her desire to help people.

Or you can see them both as selfish: Sayaka wanting Kamijou to be with her and Madoka just wanting to be special.

Pick one.

Because we don't know exactly what Sayaka's wish was. It could have been something as simple as making his hand better. Sure, she probably wants him to be with her, but that's a hope, not a wish. If she were selfish, she would have made the wish include that. All we know for sure is that Kamijou's hand is better.

I don't know whether your predictions will be correct or not. Frankly, I don't care too much. What I'm talking about, is what is happening now, and what should be addressed in order to make it a good story.

Tell me, how would you feel if we reached the last episode, and Madoka finally decides to be an MG, and her wish is: "I wish there would never be any more witches!" thus making the world safe and taking down the need for Magical Girls?
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Old 2011-01-28, 17:25   Link #157
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Something is leading me towards the very first episode strangely... Madoka had a dream about Homura and her getting beated up badly. Maybe it was "Madoka" that wished for time to reset after experiencing the horror of Homura getting slaughtered. Then it was only "Homura" that still seems to remember Madoka after the wish was granted.
In any case, we're most likely going to run into the moment again by the end of the series. It's interesting to note the witch or whatever Homura is fighting is outside the maze, in the real world. I wonder what that means, besides the fact that the world is a freaking mess
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Old 2011-01-28, 17:26   Link #158
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Something is leading me towards the very first episode strangely... Madoka had a dream about Homura and her getting beated up badly. Maybe it was "Madoka" that wished for time to reset after experiencing the horror of Homura getting slaughtered. Then it was only "Homura" that still seems to remember Madoka after the wish was granted.
That isn't going to happen, since if Madoka 'wished' the time reset, she should be mahou shoujo already.

But any theory including time loop is always relevant at this point of story, since as Urobuchi said, EVERYTHING about Homura is mysterious.
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Old 2011-01-28, 17:28   Link #159
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Just watched Magica Madoka 4
dundundun!!

what's probably going to happen..

Sayaka is probably going to die next, THEN the main girl finally becomes a magical girl.

In fact, EVERYONE will die other than her.
and her wish will be to never have met Kyubei or he never existed.

Reset to beginning of episode 1
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Old 2011-01-28, 17:29   Link #160
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
That isn't going to happen, since if Madoka 'wished' the time reset, she should be mahou shoujo already.

But any theory including time loop is always relevant at this point of story, since as Urobuchi said, EVERYTHING about Homura is mysterious.
Well of course my idea is merely a speculation, but if she resetted time herself with her one wish. She loses a chance to obtain anything else she "could" have had, so when she reset time. She has another chance to become a magical girl, there we have Homura who remembers Madoka apparently, and wishes to stop Madoka from suffering all those tragic events in the future from happening again.

Maybe I should just take this to the speculation thread.
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