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Old 2011-02-20, 14:19   Link #81
Scrooge McDuck
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As the witches' modus operandi seems to be feeding through torture anyway, I'd say that being tortured into guilt-ridden suicide is slightly worse than just being tortured. Also, even if the familiar's torture could end in death, someone could step in before that happen while not killing the familiar (so it would still get its sustenance without anybody dying).

Ah, I don't think the bouncing thing is meant to taken literally in the physical sense. If you remember Madoka in episode 4: she was ripped into shreds and then stretched to four directions (all the while having those guilt trips), yet in the end she doesn't seem to come into any physical harm.
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Old 2011-02-20, 14:28   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Not quite directly. She just stopped Sayaka from killing a familiar, and then stated that you should let them kill people so they become a witch, so you can get a grief seed. Considering her selfish nature and using her magic for herself, the logical conclusion is that she has done that before.
Yea, t his is right.

But from what we have learned up to this point, and from Kyokos perspective, using magic for others doesnt really work. so after episode 7, I wonder if its really selfish, or just not emiya shirou like. Regardless, it seems Sayaka's good nature is leading to her downfall. When Homura said thast girls like Kyoko were best suited as MGs, she seems to have had a point.
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Old 2011-02-20, 14:55   Link #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
As the witches' modus operandi seems to be feeding through torture anyway, I'd say that being tortured into guilt-ridden suicide is slightly worse than just being tortured. Also, even if the familiar's torture could end in death, someone could step in before that happen while not killing the familiar (so it would still get its sustenance without anybody dying).
Who would step in?

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Ah, I don't think the bouncing thing is meant to taken literally in the physical sense. If you remember Madoka in episode 4: she was ripped into shreds and then stretched to four directions (all the while having those guilt trips), yet in the end she doesn't seem to come into any physical harm.
Well, Sayaka rescued her, but Madoka clearly felt that she was going to die; she screamed in pain as she was stretched. As far as literally goes, there are quite a few people here who believe in that it is meant literally. And because it was not stated on the familiar's card, then they literally believe the familiar cannot kill.
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Old 2011-02-20, 15:22   Link #84
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Well, Sayaka rescued her, but Madoka clearly felt that she was going to die; she screamed in pain as she was stretched. As far as literally goes, there are quite a few people here who believe in that it is meant literally. And because it was not stated on the familiar's card, then they literally believe the familiar cannot kill.
Still, it's obviously not a physical torture, since no human could survive being stretched like that, let alone being ripped appart a moment before.


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Who would step in?
Well, since this is Kyouko's thread, by Kyouko, of course. I'm questioning if her method is simply "let people die, farm the witch".
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Old 2011-02-20, 15:24   Link #85
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Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
Well, since this is Kyouko's thread, by Kyouko, of course. I'm questioning if her method is simply "let people die, farm the witch".
Well, considering her stated goal is to farm witches for seeds, and to only use magic for herself, I don't see her stepping in to help someone being tortured by a familiar.
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Old 2011-02-20, 15:38   Link #86
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There's so many things we don't know about the system, so, again, this is at best an assumption.

I brought up the speculation because I am somewhat confused by Kyouko's stance. If Kyouko is really that averse to helping people, I see no reason why she would defeat Witches in the first place. I thought that the magical girls only need the Grief Seeds to hoard magical energy, or to cleanse it when it's corrupted. Since it could only be corrupted when you expend magical energy to defeat the Witches, the best course of action for survival is to never confront the Witches in the first place.

So a completely non-altruistic Kyouko, logically, should simply let the Witches be and just continue her carefree life. Yet she keeps defeating them, which brings me to two possibilities:

1. She is mad with POWER and want more and more, which doesn't really go with her characterization so far (though still a possibility).
2. She actually doesn't want people getting killed (too much), which makes her letting people die to the familiars questionable (when it's within her power to save them without killing the familiars)
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Old 2011-02-20, 15:41   Link #87
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Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
There's so many things we don't know about the system, so, again, this is at best an assumption.

I am somewhat confused by Kyouko's stance. If Kyouko is really that averse to helping people, I see no reason why she would defeat Witches in the first place. I thought that the magical girls only need the Grief Seeds to hoard magical energy, or to cleanse it when it's corrupted. Since it could only be corrupted when you expend magical energy to defeat the Witches, the best course of action for survival is to never confront the Witches in the first place.

So a completely non-altruistic Kyouko, logically, should simply let the Witches be and just continue her carefree life. Yet she keeps defeating them, which brings me to two possibilities:

1. She is mad with POWER and want more and more, which doesn't really go with her characterization so far (though still a possibility).
2. She actually doesn't want people getting killed (too much), which makes her letting people die to the familiars questionable (when it's within her power to save them without killing the familiars)
I don't think that Kyoko believes in her non-altruistic way of life as much as she lets on.

In fact, I think that Sayaka bothers Kyoko so much because Sayaka reminds Kyoko of her younger and more idealistic self. Sayaka is a painful reminder to Kyoko of who Kyoko used to be, and that's playing havoc with Kyoko's conscience I think. I think that we see this with how Kyoko angrily bites into her apples after Sayaka rejects Kyoko's attempts to persuade Sayaka to change her approach to being a magical girl.

I think Kyoko likes to put up a tough front of being a very cynical self-centered badass, but I think there's a strong conscience buried beneath that which Sayaka is awakening.
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Old 2011-02-20, 15:49   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
I brought up the speculation because I am somewhat confused by Kyouko's stance. If Kyouko is really that averse to helping people, I see no reason why she would defeat Witches in the first place. I thought that the magical girls only need the Grief Seeds to hoard magical energy, or to cleanse it when it's corrupted. Since it could only be corrupted when you expend magical energy to defeat the Witches, the best course of action for survival is to never confront the Witches in the first place.
You're missing a critical component. Kyoko uses magic for herself, so she would use her powers for other purposes besides witch-defeating. Sayaka asked Kyoko where she got those apples, and Kyoko didn't reply. The implication is that Kyoko stole them. Considering Kyoko doesn't seem to have a home nor job, she would have to provide for herself somehow. Magic would do that.

And thus, she would have to fight witches for seeds. Simple self-preservation.
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Old 2011-02-20, 16:16   Link #89
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I think Kyoko likes to put up a tough front of being a very cynical self-centered badass, but I think there's a strong conscience buried beneath that which Sayaka is awakening.
Of course (or hopefully). Being unflinchingly unremorseful is kinda bad for character progression.

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You're missing a critical component. Kyoko uses magic for herself, so she would use her powers for other purposes besides witch-defeating.
Aaah. Yes, a fair point. I'm still averse to the idea of Kyouko being such a sociopath, but at least it's a logical motivation.
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Old 2011-02-20, 17:14   Link #90
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Now that I've watched yesy's subs of ep.7 I think I feel for Kyoko even more all she really wanted was to help her father...

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Old 2011-02-21, 03:11   Link #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I don't think that Kyoko believes in her non-altruistic way of life as much as she lets on.

In fact, I think that Sayaka bothers Kyoko so much because Sayaka reminds Kyoko of her younger and more idealistic self. Sayaka is a painful reminder to Kyoko of who Kyoko used to be, and that's playing havoc with Kyoko's conscience I think. I think that we see this with how Kyoko angrily bites into her apples after Sayaka rejects Kyoko's attempts to persuade Sayaka to change her approach to being a magical girl.

I think Kyoko likes to put up a tough front of being a very cynical self-centered badass, but I think there's a strong conscience buried beneath that which Sayaka is awakening.
I'm inclined to agree with you on this alot. Sayaka's way of doing things, and her ideals and beliefs in general do conflict with what Kyoko's conscience. In my mind, one of the main reasons she acts so tough is because she knows she wants to be alone. On top of that, it seems like she really dosen't have a problem with it. By trying to persuade Sayaka, she viewed it as attempting to make sure someone else didn't duplicate her own mistakes. Whether or not she takes any action for or against her ideals in the next couple of episodes, we'll see.

Another key point: Her reaction to Sayaka throwing away the apple. By telling her 'not to waste it', it shows that she still has some degree of morality, notably that her process of forsaking/disregarding human lives for personal gain is something, deep inside, she really dosen't like. In any case, it showed that she still does have some values involving preservation and worth.

I do believe she has a kind heart, and good intentions underneath that sociopathic, cynical, badass exterior.
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Old 2011-02-21, 05:39   Link #92
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Ekureiru - Kyoko's backstory is very telling, I think. From it, she was likely an outright Saint of a daughter at one time. Then, her own father condemned her for what she saw as objectively good deeds. For Kyoko, it had to have been an unbelievably bitter event that threw her entire moral understanding into chaos.

Now, I can see why her father made that condemnation, but I can also understand how a young girl could not fathom the theological concerns that likely lay behind the father's feelings there. Nonetheless, he obviously took things too far and emotionally snapped under the weight of intense guilt.

Ironically, Kyoko is probably the character in this anime that I now feel the most sorry for. Poor, poor girl...
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Old 2011-02-21, 15:17   Link #93
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Ya know, I think I'm going to speculate that Kyoko's power is increased physical strength. In all of her battles, she's only attacked with her weapon, and she clearly had the pure physical strength advantage to Sayaka (who couldn't budge Kyoko at all while pressing on her sword with both hands). She kicks down the door to the church, and then smashes board with her foot. She lifts Sayaka up into the air fairly easily.

Not sure how they got super-strength from her wish, but that's my guess. Perhaps because she wished people would have the strength to listen to her father.
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Old 2011-02-21, 15:33   Link #94
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Not sure how they got super-strength from her wish, but that's my guess. Perhaps because she wished people would have the strength to listen to her father.
Or it could've been that she wished that people would listen to her father giving him strength to keep going.
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Old 2011-02-21, 15:37   Link #95
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As a little kid I don't think you already word your sentences like that so I'd like to believe "please make people listen to what papa has to say seriously" is fairly accurate, or however she told it Sayaka.
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Old 2011-02-22, 10:28   Link #96
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I just realized what Kyoko's special ability is. She can force others to listen to her unconditionally. It's similar to the wish she made to get others to listen to her father's sermon.

She probably uses her ability everytime she goes out to get food. If she just used her superhuman Puella Magi athletic abilities and stole the food, someone would undoubtedly catch on or suspect the strange shortage in food. If she used her ability to make the food seller willingly give her food, then only Kyoko would know what she did was shady, and the people who gave it to her will just think they did it out of their own free will.
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Old 2011-02-22, 11:10   Link #97
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I just realized what Kyoko's special ability is. She can force others to listen to her unconditionally. It's similar to the wish she made to get others to listen to her father's sermon.

She probably uses her ability everytime she goes out to get food. If she just used her superhuman Puella Magi athletic abilities and stole the food, someone would undoubtedly catch on or suspect the strange shortage in food. If she used her ability to make the food seller willingly give her food, then only Kyoko would know what she did was shady, and the people who gave it to her will just think they did it out of their own free will.
Wow that makes perfect sense I can't believe I didn't think of that possibility sooner.

So that means she might be able to get whatever she wants just by talking to someone...That sounds like a dangerous ability.
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Old 2011-02-22, 11:24   Link #98
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I also think it would make a lot of sense but I'm sure 1) it has its limitations and 2) Kyouko would not act like a queen ruling over people even if she could. After all, she tries to depend on her own as much as she can. For eating, drinking, sleeping, shitting, entertainment (DDR) etc. she can surely make use of people but that's about it imo. I believe Kyouko ain't the type to be on that high level of meanness. For instance, given that she has such a manipulative ability, she was still honest and straight with Sayaka.
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Old 2011-02-22, 12:31   Link #99
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I'm sure those with magical abilities are immune to Kyoko's ability, so no magical girl will be affected by it, and I don't think Witches or their familiars have the ability to reason to be affected by it. Second, Kyoko doesn't have any ambition to work with other people, so she probably only used her ability to barely get by. If she gets too ambitious, people could see her as a evil witch again and try to kill her like her father did.
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Old 2011-02-22, 12:37   Link #100
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Going by your speculation though, would Kyouko be able to control her ability actively? Would she be able to choose if the people she talked to would be influenced by her ability or not? And you have a point there about other MGs not being affected by it, though my point still stands that Kyouko was giving honest advice and did not mean to manipulate her in case it was possible but chose not to.
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