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Old 2011-02-08, 14:59   Link #41
felix
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Thank you, that's clear as crystal. Well then, debate is thus nulled, I won't be bothering you no more.

I'll clear up things, before I go: (there's no need to reply back)
Quote:
Why not go with the original idea and see how it works out first? I think you'd be surprised.
As others around here will tell you, I don't believe in this kind of thinking; and I'm pretty weird like that. I'm a programmer, thinking like that, ie. "let's, not think, and just use this", just doesn't tick with me. Maybe because I know failure leads to more failure before it leads to anything good, maybe because I'm too used to making things work — the most stupid things can just work! very easily — I just want to see good worthwhile things, work. I share a similar hate to the idea of "if it ain't broken don't fix it" (which to me simply translates to "wait for shit to fall apart first").
Quote:
Finally, I noticed that you said your entry was quickly forced and you were troubled. That would be good reason to look over it, summarize and edit, no? Even to this point you still have almost another week to change it and come up with new ideas.
I'm sorry, I don't want to scrap my idea. This might be another of my programmer habits. "Thow shall never scrap perfectly working code." Sure you might rewrite everything, refactor, but no need to ignore or dump old code. I think the same principles applies to writing: dumping something won't make the new one work better. And you're missing my point, I have looked over it, summarized, edited and so forth; the only thing I would remove is everything that was forced by the theme.
Quote:
Also, 1500 words does not change because readers need to read one entry, and move on. Allowing a 7500 word count is way too much, as many others have said in the original proposal topic. Learn to summarize; this is a competition, not a publishing company.

Another reason why many of the suggestions are not addressed is because they've come up before. And we discussed them. And then we moved on. As I said, check the proposal thread; we covered ground on the word count and I even upped the limit to 1500 for everyone who said I should (which was majority). Now I'm being pushed to up it to 7500 or even make it unlimited. As I've said over and over throughout this topic, that's too many, 1500 stays.
Nobody said you should up it to 1500. Everyone else suggested far greater ranges, so 1500 can't even be considered a average. I'll summarize the thread for you:

1000/1500 wordcount limit
Support
  • you (default) [50]
  • Illusore [80]
Semi-Against
  • milan kyuubi [51] [82]
  • felix [52]
Against
  • TinyRedLeaf [53]
  • Shikabane_Hime [55]
  • Kristen [75]
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Old 2011-02-08, 15:21   Link #42
Hiroi Sekai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Thank you, that's clear as crystal. Well then, debate is thus nulled, I won't be bothering you no more.

I'll clear up things, before I go: (there's no need to reply back)
As others around here will tell you, I don't believe in this kind of thinking; and I'm pretty weird like that. I'm a programmer, thinking like that, ie. "let's, not think, and just use this", just doesn't tick with me. Maybe because I know failure leads to more failure before it leads to anything good, maybe because I'm too used to making things work — the most stupid things can just work! very easily — I just want to see good worthwhile things, work. I share a similar hate to the idea of "if it ain't broken don't fix it" (which to me simply translates to "wait for shit to fall apart first").
I'm sorry, I don't want to scrap my idea. This might be another of my programmer habits. "Thow shall never scrap perfectly working code." Sure you might rewrite everything, refactor, but no need to ignore or dump old code. I think the same principles applies to writing: dumping something won't make the new one work better. And you're missing my point, I have looked over it, summarized, edited and so forth; the only thing I would remove is everything that was forced by the theme.
Nobody said you should up it to 1500. Everyone else suggested far greater ranges, so 1500 can't even be considered a average. I'll summarize the thread for you:

1000/1500 wordcount limit
Support
  • you (default) [50]
  • Illusore [80]
Semi-Against
  • milan kyuubi [51] [82]
  • felix [52]
Against
  • TinyRedLeaf [53]
  • Shikabane_Hime [55]
  • Kristen [75]
Thanks for your reply. Seriously though, you'd be surprised. I do basic programming as one of my hobbies (probably not to an extent that you do, so I can't say for sure), but in no way did I mean "let's not think". I mean we should stick something that has the potential to work, but we haven't even tried it yet. I can understand your viewpoint though. If it's any consolation, I won't sit around and wait for it to fall apart, should the original idea not work.

In this case, I think you may be used to writing longer pieces of composition with less limitations. I never did actually say to scrap your idea, just that you'd have a good chunk of time to adapt it to fit into the regulations. It's your choice if you want to take advantage of it or not; whatever your final entry is, as long as you're satisfied with it then it's okay. There will be some forced out material with these limitations, but that's the idea; we're all learning to work under terms, like we do with our everyday lives. We can't say: "I don't have time to express my creativity because all my time goes to my job" and quit that job for that reason. Wow, that was an odd comparison, I'm sorry. :P

Ah yes, I probably should have made this clear when I said it, apologies. On top of the proposal thread, I've been receiving private messages saying the word count was at an okay range. They didn't all specifically say 1500 words, but they did mention that having anything past 2000 would deter from the goal. Since the populous wanted a fair fight between poetry and longer compositions, I went with the 1500 words. *looks back* Wow, that really WAS worded very poorly. My apologies.
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Old 2011-02-09, 00:29   Link #43
lordshadowisle
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At this point we should probably let the current contest run its course. As noted earlier nobody really knows how things will work out or whether some or any problems would surface.

At the risk of reigniting the issue I have two things to say. First, regarding the fixed theme, my personal opinion is that there's nothing really wrong with it. Assuming the theme is chosen wisely enough it shouldn't stop a person from participating. People usually have many ideas, it's unlikely that ALL are non-compatible with the theme. Sure, people may feel nothing for the current theme. But I'm not entirely certain that widening the selection of themes or challenges is the best solution, because past some point we might as well hold a monthly general writing competition. To me it seems to be a problem of motivating people to write.

As for the word limit, I like 1500 words, but then again I'm relatively used to writing nanofiction (55 words exactly) and drabbles (100 words exactly). Unfortunately we don't know how many people are not competing due to the word limits.

Perhaps we should treat both theme and word counts as soft rather than hard limits. That is, encourage people to post items that may not be entirely within theme or word limit, then provide advice on how to edit the entry to better meet thematic or word count requirements. In the end, the final entries should be reasonably related to the contest theme. Even if not, we should still accept entries that have shown considerable effort in moving closer to the theme. Of course we'll run the risk of having entries that blatantly flout the theme with no effort put into reconciliation, but such entries should be easy to spot.

The above are just my thoughts, and not demands or requests for immediate change or anything.
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Old 2011-02-12, 09:33   Link #44
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From contest thread, by felix:

If the contest would allow italics, then you would then have people saying "oh, why aren't different fonts allowed?" or "oh, why aren't different colors allowed?" or "oh why can't I write everything in size 7?". The consensus in the other discussion was: it's not necessary for writing, and anything you can do with italics you can do with better wording or just plaintext. We don't want a contest where someone who is just cute with formatting gets a advantage from it. Think along the lines of a poem that's written and formatted more like a graphic then an actual poem; like say it looks like a poster (for example) — this is not a graphic contest.

The argument that it's not necessary for writing isn't strong. First, not everything that can be done with italics can be replicated, or replicated elegantly, with wording. Second, surely it is possible to reduce writing to some skeletal subset of basic words and punctuation, but is such a limitation good?

I do agree with limiting the possible formatting of entries. We should draw a line, but I don't believe that restricting italics is the appropriate point. My argument is this: Take a standard novel or book of short stories. Do we see bold and italics? Perhaps not every page, but almost certainly they will be there somewhere. These are elements that are naturalized to writing. Different fonts or font sizes? Not so much unless the work's something avant-garde.

Note that while I suggest lifting the restriction, I'm perfectly fine with it remaining. I'm beginning to see from the point of view of felix and others regarding word count though; perhaps my objection to it is because I use italics relatively often, whereas I don't object to word count as I'm used to such lengths.

To each his own then. Perhaps we can even shuffle the restrictions and word count limits around from time to time, to keep things interesting.
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Old 2011-02-12, 13:28   Link #45
Hiroi Sekai
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I could honestly write either way, so that is why I implemented the "no italics/bold/underline" restriction. There were good points made on the topic by felix and a few others, if I recall correctly.

That being said, I don't see any major problem with adding the use of italics. Since we're keeping it to 1500 words. there can't be too many italics used anyways. We probably shouldn't shuffle the restrictions/word count around, but I do like the idea of mixing it up here and there. We may have special themes with surprises every so often.
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Old 2011-02-19, 14:08   Link #46
felix
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Queries
  • pictures allowed? specifically thinking maps and other material, not characters—though it be best to include the position on artwork and characters as well
  • links allowed? things like linking to wikipedia, or google maps, etc
I am kind of aware of what the most likely answer is; but since it's not mentioned in the rules might as well bring it up for clarification.
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Old 2011-02-19, 14:23   Link #47
Hiroi Sekai
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Oh, a few queries? I'm happy to oblige.

Pictures are not allowed in the actual competition thread itself; visual additions would only create a biased voting phase. You are free to post your illustrated version somewhere else though:P

As for links, those are allowed, but must be relevant to the story. If you're using Wikipedia or Merriam-Webster to describe words, or using Google Maps to clarify something, then it's okay. If you're linking to images or videos that enhance your text-based entry, then that is forbidden.

Good questions - thanks for clarifying those.
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Old 2011-02-19, 14:25   Link #48
felix
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Ok, thanks.
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Old 2011-03-30, 21:00   Link #49
Suomi
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PM-san (I'm addressing you in specific here): what would you say to putting poetry in a separate category? I think it has a better chance that way, rather than being pitted against long stories... would you, as leader of the EMDAS, consider it?
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Old 2011-10-23, 10:50   Link #50
felix
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@Mario

I haven't been keeping count but we've had pretty much a whole bunch of contests already. So I raise the following:
  • 2B needs to go.
  • 2A needs to go.
  • 1A is unnecessary (last entry is your final entry)
  • 1B needs to go.
  • I think images should be allowed as long as they don't contain text.

So basically allow all formatting options and see what people do with them. In a lot of cases, including your own entries Mario I feel the lack of formatting options makes the entries actually harder to read.

Specifically regarding 1B, I've been indulging into this 1500 word limit "creativity" argument and frankly I'm not seeing anything but a negative impact. Since we have so few entries anyway I don't think size should matter at all. Won't say any more then that.
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Old 2011-10-24, 06:05   Link #51
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Thanks for the suggestions, but I'm forced to disagree on most of these. Forgive me if I'm mistaken but since we've gone through this song and dance multiple times before, I have to ask: "Are you still viewing this competition as a platform to host your personal story on?"

Ever since this started you haven't deviated from your main storyline idea for entries and haven't shown any sorts of agreements with the limitations set to keep things concise and simple for both readers and writers. It's not a "How much content can I shove in per month" as opposed to "How well can I do with the limitations set on me" ordeal. So when another website asks you to submit a story using nothing but quotation and standard punctuation marks for entries (which I've done before), can you ask them to change everything as well?

I want to set out the reminder that this isn't a medium for telling long stories in. If you want to do that, it's best to share it on your own thread. Here, it's to help your short-burst creativity skills grow, and to push yourself to write better in that department.

We've had a couple instances where people didn't properly have time to finalize their entries in time and ask that their unfinished version be kept from being published, so I still think finalizing it by writing 2 words is easy enough.

As for pictures, we've been through this and I definitely refuse to move from this one. Not everyone is going to formulate pictures to go with their stories, which means that the ones that do will have that certain edge over them. No, it's not laziness on their part if they don't submit photos; I believe we are to compose stories here, not storyboards.

Finally, that limit is rarely even utilized by most of the people who have submitted entries thus far. So I suppose we are to be allowed writing novellas as entries while other barely manage to scrounge up a short story from their inexperience? This competition is to run with the general public in mind at all times despite who enters, so no, I can't really see myself agreeing to change these. We've gone by so far with no problems, so in all honesty, I'd need something that is harshing the overall competition before I consider making changes. Sorry.
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Old 2011-10-24, 06:40   Link #52
felix
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Quote:
Thanks for the suggestions, but I'm forced to disagree on most of these. Forgive me if I'm mistaken but since we've gone through this song and dance multiple times before, I have to ask: "Are you still viewing this competition as a platform to host your personal story on?"
No. Actually I just view it as a initiative to write since I'm always kind of busy with something. Also like experimenting with the "episodic" challenge.

(shouldn't that be obvious, I kind of changed to another story on a whim just because of the theme)

I'll change to another story next time since it really bothers you.

[edit] oh and about the posting in your thread thing; I only created it to keep track, and as you can tell by me not bumping it by editing my posts instead of posting new ones I'm not really attached to it. That said I think if you really just want people to read it then it's better to use some of the specialized sites out there. There are a few with karma type system where to post you have to earn points by reading/reviewing other people's work.

Quote:
Finally, that limit is rarely even utilized by most of the people who have submitted entries thus far.
This could be seen the other way around too: People have not submitted entries because the limit is there. And when you look at how many have participated, particularly in the last contest, we can pretty much count them on one hand.
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Old 2011-10-24, 13:53   Link #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
No. Actually I just view it as a initiative to write since I'm always kind of busy with something. Also like experimenting with the "episodic" challenge.
Ah okay. As I said, please forgive me since I was wrong.

Quote:
I'll change to another story next time since it really bothers you.
Hey now, don't be twisting my words around. I had to bring it up because in the past it was a large factor during the suggestions phase and I wasn't sure.


Quote:
oh and about the posting in your thread thing; I only created it to keep track, and as you can tell by me not bumping it by editing my posts instead of posting new ones I'm not really attached to it. That said I think if you really just want people to read it then it's better to use some of the specialized sites out there. There are a few with karma type system where to post you have to earn points by reading/reviewing other people's work.
That's alright, I wasn't concerned about the details of your thread so much as the basic fact that you would be free to write as much as you want in there.

Quote:
This could be seen the other way around too: People have not submitted entries because the limit is there. And when you look at how many have participated, particularly in the last contest, we can pretty much count them on one hand.
I would counter-argue that I haven't seen our regulars online very often as of late. School and work and personal lives, you know? I can respect where you're going with this, but I cannot for the life of me wrap my head around where this kind of thought process would arise for any newcomer. Picture that they're trying to enter and they have a look through the other entries, which were written by the more experienced and without limits. It could be the very factor that makes them think that their story will never be as good. The absolute best I could do is raise it the count to 2,000, but I'd never change it from there- I'm already pushing past what I think is fair.
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Old 2011-10-24, 14:19   Link #54
felix
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Well this is just my take on it but, long or longer is pretty much same thing for me when reading, and I don't think anyone looks at the numbers before they start posting.

While it may seem weird, I actually find it harder to write it shorter then to write it longer. I mean it does make sense it would be harder when you think about it, since you have to always cut yourself short to make sure you meet the limit. Though I suppose some people naturally write it short. This was also mentioned in the original thread (and part of why a tend to just continue a story then make new one). Looking at the general length of how people write on specialized sites longer seems a lot more normal, so by virtue of being more common I suppose easier?

The other problem with short length is that it kind of forces the story into a prolog; even if you end it in some way. There's not much room for character development beyond the exposition. People may feel bad if they can't actually write the stuff they want to write about because they never get to it; I'm sure you know what I mean.

OH and about the "fairness" thing. If anything short gets across easier and faster. If my posts and the poetry entries are anything to go by nobody cares for length, actually the longer it is the less chance. Then again I should put more effort into them, so it could be just me.
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Old 2011-10-24, 14:58   Link #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Well this is just my take on it but, long or longer is pretty much same thing for me when reading, and I don't think anyone looks at the numbers before they start posting.

While it may seem weird, I actually find it harder to write it shorter then to write it longer. I mean it does make sense it would be harder when you think about it, since you have to always cut yourself short to make sure you meet the limit. Though I suppose some people naturally write it short. This was also mentioned in the original thread (and part of why a tend to just continue a story then make new one). Looking at the general length of how people write on specialized sites longer seems a lot more normal, so by virtue of being more common I suppose easier?

The other problem with short length is that it kind of forces the story into a prolog; even if you end it in some way. There's not much room for character development beyond the exposition. People may feel bad if they can't actually write the stuff they want to write about because they never get to it; I'm sure you know what I mean.

OH and about the "fairness" thing. If anything short gets across easier and faster. If my posts and the poetry entries are anything to go by nobody cares for length, actually the longer it is the less chance. Then again I should put more effort into them, so it could be just me.
For me, reading short stories portrays a concise yet simplistically powerful message, whilst longer stories focus on an equally powerful message, but builds it up over time. The same effect can be brought about in either case.

And no no, it's not weird, that's the point! If you're having to cut back because of the limit, then I still think you'd be missing the point. It's a MAXIMUM of 1,500 words, not AROUND 1,500 words. The whole idea is to force people to write stories that are restrictive yet still portray that powerful message I talked about. There's always good in writing longer stories yes, but there are literally hundreds of competitions for that online.

I understand what you mean about the prolog situation, but that would just mean that you're still trying to establish too many characters. With one or two I never found a problem, but any more and you'll be asking for empty characterizations. I never post my personal novel ideas in the competitions because of the reasons you listed, but I keep building it separately on my own time because I DO enjoy writing novel length compositions as well.
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Old 2011-10-24, 15:35   Link #56
felix
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To me the message might as well be a average cliche sentence, if the journey to it is fulfilling (ie. the story). I find it hard to force myself to write like that unless it just comes naturally. It's just uncomfortable. Well, seems we'll never see eye to eye on this issue. And don't be silly, this is the only contest around here, so there is no "other contests", lol.

Oh and what's this about your novel? Link me to your PDFs.
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Old 2011-10-24, 15:39   Link #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
To me the message might as well be a average cliche sentence, if the journey to it is fulfilling (ie. the story). I find it hard to force myself to write like that unless it just comes naturally. It's just uncomfortable. Well, seems we'll never see eye to eye on this issue. And don't be silly, this is the only contest around here, so there is no "other contests", lol.

Oh and what's this about your novel? Link me to your PDFs.
Hopefully your idea of "the internet" isn't just AnimeSuki.

And PDFs? Don't be silly! These are handwritten from scratch with care, but I have those in a large binder that I lent to my grandparents to read. For some crazy reason they wanted to show them off to their relatives. XD
If and when I get them back I'll try to scan them or something.
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Old 2011-10-24, 15:52   Link #58
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If it comes to anime-esquey content, yes. I kind of follow one or two sources only for everything, I know I'm lazy. I'm usually either visiting regularly or checking once every 3 months, so unless you start calling names and giving links these "other contests" are nonexistent on my radar (and potentially others).

Quote:
And PDFs? Don't be silly! These are handwritten from scratch with care, but I have those in a large binder that I lent to my grandparents to read. For some crazy reason they wanted to show them off to their relatives. XD
If and when I get them back I'll try to scan them or something.
It's okey if you don't want to share them.
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Old 2011-10-24, 15:55   Link #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
If it comes to anime-esquey content, yes. I kind of follow one or two sources only for everything, I know I'm lazy. I'm usually either visiting regularly or checking once every 3 months, so unless you start calling names and giving links these "other contests" are nonexistent on my radar (and potentially others).
That's your own negligence and unfortunately cannot be tied to me in any way. We're not even on topic anymore.

Quote:
It's okey if you don't want to share them.
It's okay if you wanna be cynical.
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Old 2011-10-25, 17:43   Link #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papermario13689 View Post
For me, reading short stories portrays a concise yet simplistically powerful message, whilst longer stories focus on an equally powerful message, but builds it up over time. The same effect can be brought about in either case.

And no no, it's not weird, that's the point! If you're having to cut back because of the limit, then I still think you'd be missing the point. It's a MAXIMUM of 1,500 words, not AROUND 1,500 words. The whole idea is to force people to write stories that are restrictive yet still portray that powerful message I talked about. There's always good in writing longer stories yes, but there are literally hundreds of competitions for that online.

I understand what you mean about the prolog situation, but that would just mean that you're still trying to establish too many characters. With one or two I never found a problem, but any more and you'll be asking for empty characterizations. I never post my personal novel ideas in the competitions because of the reasons you listed, but I keep building it separately on my own time because I DO enjoy writing novel length compositions as well.
I agree with all of this, except I don't write novels *guilty look* in fact I hardly ever write anymore.
But I think the limit is good, because the point is to write SHORT stories, stories that fit within that limit but still encompass all they need to. Do I make sense?
Plus, it's a challenge
and personally, when it's a competition I'm voting on, I prefer reading the short stories. "short stories" (one shots that aren't overly long) as opposed to longer, drawn out ones. But that may just be me.
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