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Old 2012-05-19, 05:00   Link #241
totoum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
It has been bugging me for some time now... why do so many of you care so much about the TV ratings of Noitamina anime? I mean the productions themselves are limited by being forced to appeal to mainstream audiences, weird scheduling, and exclusion of the primary anime fanbase
Basicly what you consider a limitations is freedom to others like me,we want noitamina to target other audiences besides the primary anime fanbase.
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Old 2012-05-19, 06:14   Link #242
ahelo
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
It has been bugging me for some time now... why do so many of you care so much about the TV ratings of Noitamina anime? I mean the productions themselves are limited by being forced to appeal to mainstream audiences, weird scheduling, and exclusion of the primary anime fanbase... The few zones from the zone that liked (Honey & Clover, Shiki, BRS, Ano Hana), could have been much better IMHO, and definitely return more money if they did not have these limitations.
Because they're a block USUALLY dedicated to air anime that won't be made into one. So everyone's always afraid of cancellation of the block.
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Old 2012-05-19, 06:36   Link #243
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Noitamina is one of the last stands that dares to do something different from what everyone else is (milking the same tired Otaku formula over and over again) and even then they've been slowing giving in. Once Noitamina goes, there goes probably the only one consistent and almost all current hope of anime branching out and diversifying into the outside demographics.
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Old 2012-05-19, 16:41   Link #244
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I'll never understand why it so offends people that there's one hour a week that doesn't show series aimed at an otaku audience. The 30 slots that do every season aren't enough?
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Old 2012-05-22, 02:44   Link #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Basicly what you consider a limitations is freedom to others like me,we want noitamina to target other audiences besides the primary anime fanbase.
Well, that's my problem with the zone... if you exclude young boys, and adult hobbyists, who is your audience to go through the limitations of a TV run. Several shows would have been more watchable if they focused for example in their innovative art, animation work, storytelling, but with either shorter or longer runs (depending on the case), different/cheaper publication, like festivals, webcasts that also have better revenue prospects.

The only reason I can see Noitamina staying on TV is the hopeless struggle to gain mainstream appeal, and it is obviously not working. Based on the ratings.

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Originally Posted by ahelo View Post
Because they're a block USUALLY dedicated to air anime that won't be made into one. So everyone's always afraid of cancellation of the block.
Not make it into TV broadcasts, which limits not only Noitamina, but also late-night shows (weather they target NEETs or not). And following a more appropriate publication method seems to me more rational.

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Originally Posted by brocko View Post
Noitamina is one of the last stands that dares to do something different from what everyone else is (milking the same tired Otaku formula over and over again) and even then they've been slowing giving in. Once Noitamina goes, there goes probably the only one consistent and almost all current hope of anime branching out and diversifying into the outside demographics.
This approach is what bothers me about the fanatical support of Noitamina. It groups together everyone else (that do not have a awful lot of similarities except not liking the majority of the zones' shows) behind a degrading term, considering what airs in the zone the pinnacle of art, and everything else trash... not all supporters do so, but there are a lot that do.

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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
I'll never understand why it so offends people that there's one hour a week that doesn't show series aimed at an otaku audience. The 30 slots that do every season aren't enough?
I can only speak for myself here. I am not offended by the slot, but by the waste of material because of its format... Black Rock Shooter and Shiki IMHO suffered a lot from dubious innovations.

I am not saying that these kind of anime shouldn't be produced, the opposite that being produced with the zones restrictions and demands it hurts them. In addition, innovative anime that did not appeal to the two major consumer bases were produced in the past and several not only were successful experiments, but also sold well.
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Old 2012-05-25, 16:23   Link #246
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Well, that's my problem with the zone... if you exclude young boys, and adult hobbyists, who is your audience to go through the limitations of a TV run. Several shows would have been more watchable if they focused for example in their innovative art, animation work, storytelling, but with either shorter or longer runs (depending on the case), different/cheaper publication, like festivals, webcasts that also have better revenue prospects.

The only reason I can see Noitamina staying on TV is the hopeless struggle to gain mainstream appeal, and it is obviously not working. Based on the ratings.

...

This approach is what bothers me about the fanatical support of Noitamina. It groups together everyone else (that do not have a awful lot of similarities except not liking the majority of the zones' shows) behind a degrading term, considering what airs in the zone the pinnacle of art, and everything else trash... not all supporters do so, but there are a lot that do.
Well said.
What bothers me about the noitaminA fandom, is that they haven't read this thread. Or at least they don't analyze it sufficiently.

From the way they talk about how noitaminA is "mainstream", and every otaku show is just a "niche" you would think that there is at least an order of magnitude of difference between their popularity. Rather than just admitting that they WANT noitaminA type shows to keep going and be popular, they create some ideology about how the rest of the anime industry is dying from insularism, and noitaminA is the only cure.

You don't ever hear people commenting on how we need more popular shows like K-on, like To-LOVE-ru, or like Madoka, even though they also had ratings similar to modern noitaminA, (plus much better sales).

For all intents and purposes, the noitaminA audience is as much of a niche as the viewers of these. Maybe they are not from the the "stereotypical otaku", demographic, but that 2% minority of the population who are staying up late to watch artsy coming-of-age stories, must still be some sort of anime enthusiasts, rather than just "the mainstream".

We don't even know if actually targeting the mainstream would be good for anime as a medium. After all, we don't know what ordinary japanese people want from their anime, but evidently, it's not Josei.
We just took the noitaminA fandom's claim at face value, that if anime would be mainstream, more shows woud be like current noitaminA, but it's probably not true. Maybe once noitaminA succeeds and finds the formula to genres that really the whole mainstream of Japan wants to watch, it will be something that it's current Josei-loving niche audience despises.
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Old 2012-05-25, 18:48   Link #247
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Originally Posted by Eternal September View Post
From the way they talk about how noitaminA is "mainstream", and every otaku show is just a "niche" you would think that there is at least an order of magnitude of difference between their popularity. Rather than just admitting that they WANT noitaminA type shows to keep going and be popular, they create some ideology about how the rest of the anime industry is dying from insularism, and noitaminA is the only cure.
[...]
We don't even know if actually targeting the mainstream would be good for anime as a medium. After all, we don't know what ordinary japanese people want from their anime, but evidently, it's not Josei.
We just took the noitaminA fandom's claim at face value, that if anime would be mainstream, more shows woud be like current noitaminA, but it's probably not true. Maybe once noitaminA succeeds and finds the formula to genres that really the whole mainstream of Japan wants to watch, it will be something that it's current Josei-loving niche audience despises.
Have you considered the possibility that these Noitamina fanboys are actually part of a larger fandom that isn't limited to anime? Auteurish live action films certainly aren't as popular as live action blockbusters, but they have a larger fanbase than anime alone ever will. And it just so happens that this very large fanbase that's actually kind of part of the mainstream also likes anime. So it's not as niche of an audience as you'd like to claim. It's just a matter of how you choose to look at the fandom. I don't like this part, but that's how you get your Zac Bertchys--movie buffs who like anime titles based on quality standards that have more in common with western entertainment they enjoy.

And yes, the anime industry is growing insular and more stupid with every new light novel adaptation, but that has nothing to do with Noitamina. Also, I don't see why us Noitamina fans should take the blame for your inferiority complex, just because we like to express what we consider good anime. This is not a Noitamina VS the rest of anime. But Noitamina sure produces some good titles -- and if you can't stomach that opinion without feeling inferior about your tastes, then maybe the Noitamina discussion isn't for you.
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Old 2012-05-25, 19:00   Link #248
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Sorry for bringing this up with such a rant... but I never imagined fans in camps narrowed by tropes flaming each other. My criticism for Noitamina-fandom is similar when it comes to ecchi-freaks, shounen-plot-loving-fanboys, jousei-jaded-OLs, etc, etc.

My point was that Noitamina-pursuits on a high viewership zone (all things considered) is limiting itself, and could do much better if it did not strive to popularize its artistic pursuits, but enrich them saved of the limitations that mass-consumption enforces, as other creators did/do/will when they find an appropriate vehicle to do so, and IMHO Tokyo's prime time air-waves aren't one

If anything, I lament the lost opportunities of some shows that were struggled artistically by the zone in order to gain mainstream appeal.
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Old 2012-05-25, 19:12   Link #249
cyth
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
My point was that Noitamina-pursuits on a high viewership zone (all things considered) is limiting itself, and could do much better if it did not strive to popularize its artistic pursuits, but enrich them saved of the limitations that mass-consumption enforces, as other creators did/do/will when they find an appropriate vehicle to do so, and IMHO Tokyo's prime time air-waves aren't one
I got you the first time and I agree with you completely on the point that Noitamina's relatively late-night time slot isn't appropriate and is doing a disservice to some of their titles. This can also be said for certain non-Noitamina late-night anime as well. Not sure what you mean by enrichment though.
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Old 2012-05-25, 19:42   Link #250
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I just wanted to clarify my perspective... I partially agree E.S, as well as you and others here about Noitamina, and other shows... I think that pursuing mainstream appeal is the wrong way to go. If the mainstream can appreciate the innovative elements in Noitamina shows won't be achieved by a jaded housewife that leaves her TV on while the whole family is eating dinner, frankly the opposite, the mainstream must be able to appreciate, if not identify and pursue such elements independent of the context they appear in
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Old 2012-05-25, 21:09   Link #251
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Well I don't think many people would categorize Tsuritama, a story about fishing, aliens, secret agents, and male bonding, as mainstream anything. noitaminA was more exciting and more distinctive when it was making shows that targeted adults. It does that less nowadays, but both Tsuritama and Sakamichi no Apollon give me hope that the producers can find shows that appeal to adults and teens and, one might hope, broaden the age spectrum of anime viewers. Moyashimon Redux has the potential to do that as well; I hope it succeeds.

I don't think it's appropriate to have an extended discussion of noitaminA in this thread. Please consider continuing this discussion in the noitaminA thread itself.
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Old 2012-05-26, 06:17   Link #252
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Have you considered the possibility that these Noitamina fanboys are actually part of a larger fandom that isn't limited to anime? Auteurish live action films certainly aren't as popular as live action blockbusters, but they have a larger fanbase than anime alone ever will. And it just so happens that this very large fanbase that's actually kind of part of the mainstream also likes anime. So it's not as niche of an audience as you'd like to claim. It's just a matter of how you choose to look at the fandom.
To also reply to SeijiSensei's note, the reason why I'm writing this here, is that it has nothing to do with how we "choose to look at the fandom", and everything to do with the actual ratings seen earlier in this thread, especially when comparing noitaminA to other popular anime.

Yeah, maybe theoratically, auteurish live action films could also gather a bigger base "than anime alone ever will". But in practice, the type of shows that noitaminA airs, couldn't do the same.

You know what else is a much bigger group than the traditional anime audience? The idol fandom, especially the AKB48 audience. Yet I don't hear any growth-obsessed noitaminA fan hoping that AKB0048 will save the anime industry, by bringing in new viewers. Apparently, growth only counts if we like it's direction.

The problem is, that you are mixing vague feelings about what ought to be popular, and what deserves to be popular, with hard facts. Here is a particularly good example, the ratings of a week from 2 years ago, with Angel Beats, Durarara, and K-on all beating on the noitaminA of the time. While it's not an average week, (noitaminA was somehow weak in that season, and we rarely have 3 late night shows at that level at the same time), it's still a reasonable example of how the fandom's exaggeration about noitaminA's special mainstreamness is a myth. It shows that the individual shows in it are not necessarily on a different level of popularity from "otaku anime" as a whole.

I like most noitaminA shows. You might even call me a "noitaminA fan", since I'm also rooting for these shows to be big hits, (just as I'm rooting for other shows that I like). But I dislike the "noitaminA fandom", as a group that portrays itself objectively superior on a pseudoscientific basis, essentially pretending that their shows already are much bigger than anything else.

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Originally Posted by cyth View Post
I don't see why us Noitamina fans should take the blame for your inferiority complex, just because we like to express what we consider good anime.
...
if you can't stomach that opinion without feeling inferior about your tastes, then maybe the Noitamina discussion isn't for you.
Actually, that whole reaction of yours is an ironically appropriate demonstration of the negative aspects of the noitaminA fandom that I intended to point out.

I made a statement about how the noitaminA fandom tends to mix up their personal preferences of liking noitaminA's style with their ideological belief that noitaminA is inherently much more mainstream than "otaku anime". I provided ratings examples from this thread, on why the latter isn't necessarily true.

And you reacted to this, by assuming that I made an attack on your tastes about good anime.

If you can't stomach a discussion about audience sizes without derailing it into how much you like noitaminA, then maybe the TV ratings discussion isn't for you.
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Old 2012-05-26, 08:20   Link #253
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Originally Posted by Eternal September View Post
The problem is, that you are mixing vague feelings about what ought to be popular, and what deserves to be popular, with hard facts. Here is a particularly good example, the ratings of a week from 2 years ago, with Angel Beats, Durarara, and K-on all beating on the noitaminA of the time. While it's not an average week, (noitaminA was somehow weak in that season, and we rarely have 3 late night shows at that level at the same time), it's still a reasonable example of how the fandom's exaggeration about noitaminA's special mainstreamness is a myth. It shows that the individual shows in it are not necessarily on a different level of popularity from "otaku anime" as a whole.
What are you even talking about? Mixing vague feelings what? Leaving ratings issues aside, my point was that auteurish shows have a bigger fanbase outside anime. AKB48 fanbase will never be as big as that, because the auteur fandom has a long established global identity (hardcore otaku anime and AKB48 do not). This is why I consider some Noitamina shows to have bigger potential than otaku anime. As it was discussed earlier, Noitamina isn't really the right platform for them.

For stories themselves, maybe anime isn't the right medium for them. If I weren't an animation fan, I wouldn't mind seeing [C] in live action form.

Quote:
But I dislike the "noitaminA fandom", as a group that portrays itself objectively superior on a pseudoscientific basis, essentially pretending that their shows already are much bigger than anything else.
"Are bigger" and "have more potential" are two different concoctions. I think you're reading too much into these rapid Noitamina fanboys.
Quote:
And you reacted to this, by assuming that I made an attack on your tastes about good anime.
I honestly didn't. Unfortunately for us, Noitamina really is one of the last places to get a different blend of anime. While we have plently of motivation to defend their past practices, before they started catering to otaku, I'll agree with Guardian_Enzo about people shutting the fuck up about being offended over this, and just leave it at that.
Quote:
If you can't stomach a discussion about audience sizes without derailing it into how much you like noitaminA, then maybe the TV ratings discussion isn't for you.
I thought this thread was also to discuss the merits of these ratings.
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Old 2012-05-26, 12:23   Link #254
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The real money is always DVD/BD sales. Unfortunately noitaminA rarely does well on that front...

That said, are we sure this decline in ratings is unique to noitaminA? Could it instead be more symptomatic of a general decline in TV viewing?

For instance,I'd be interested in finding out how these noitaminA shows do on japanese bittorrent and streaming networks. It would also be interesting to know how ratings for Anime as a whole have changed. It could be that ratings as a whole are declining, as more and more Japanese otaku switch from expensive cable to simple downloading the shows. Fortunately for the anime industry as a whole, they've never gotten much money from advertising and ratings, so it shouldn't hit hard if DVDs continue to sell as they used to (and I don't see that changing, given how they play to hardcore collectors). That does leave noitaminA in a tricky position though.

I think a lot of Anime fans would be sad to see noitaminA dissappear, it's the only place where you can find Josei and other unconventional anime. Maybe it will switch back to 1 series per season first though.
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Old 2012-05-26, 17:44   Link #255
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Originally Posted by Eternal September View Post
From the way they talk about how noitaminA is "mainstream", and every otaku show is just a "niche" you would think that there is at least an order of magnitude of difference between their popularity. Rather than just admitting that they WANT noitaminA type shows to keep going and be popular, they create some ideology about how the rest of the anime industry is dying from insularism, and noitaminA is the only cure.

You don't ever hear people commenting on how we need more popular shows like K-on, like To-LOVE-ru, or like Madoka, even though they also had ratings similar to modern noitaminA, (plus much better sales).
I'm not sure that's really the issue. By mainstream, people are referring to the appeal of the stories and subject matter as understood outside anime. That is, properties like Honey & Clover, Nodame Cantabile, and Moyashimon reached millions of non-otaku (mainly young women just out of university and entering the workforce) through other forms of media, making them mainstream.

I think everyone's aware that noitaminA has been tanking and that mainstream popularity is an increasingly distant dream. Nevertheless, it isn't going to stop fans from raging at Fuji (who really aren't at fault) for changing up their programming.

Quote:
Maybe it will switch back to 1 series per season first though.
Two series a season may be keeping the slot alive. noitaminA is now a Fuji TV x Aniplex venture, which means a lot in terms of financing. One partner (Aniplex) has money to burn, while the other (Fuji) operates on a shoestring budget. They each spearhead a single show every season.

For, Fuji, it's a beneficial setup because
a) Aniplex and Sony Music help fund some of their own initiatives
b) They benefit whenever one of Aniplex's offerings succeed.

An example of this working in their favour might be the failures of Fractale, [C], and Un-Go. Those projects failed, but the losses would've been offset by their royalty streams from AnoHana and Guilty Crown.
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Old 2012-05-26, 19:51   Link #256
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Two series a season may be keeping the slot alive. noitaminA is now a Fuji TV x Aniplex venture, which means a lot in terms of financing. One partner (Aniplex) has money to burn, while the other (Fuji) operates on a shoestring budget. They each spearhead a single show every season.

For, Fuji, it's a beneficial setup because
a) Aniplex and Sony Music help fund some of their own initiatives
b) They benefit whenever one of Aniplex's offerings succeed.

An example of this working in their favour might be the failures of Fractale, [C], and Un-Go. Those projects failed, but the losses would've been offset by their royalty streams from AnoHana and Guilty Crown.
I'm not so sure, if profits continue to fall, then there won't be resources in the system to fund two shows.

There's also the possibility that they end out cannibalizing their own sales, particularly if they have two shows of a similiar type airing at once. Maybe that's why they've been airing more "mainstream" (IE otaku oriented) shows lately, there's only so many non-mainstream shows the industry can support at once, most of the money is still in Otaku shows. The only alternative is to be aiming at selling a tie in (Like Kaiji with the live action movies etc.).

The main thing in noitaminA's favour is that the viewing (and paying...) audience for Anime is aging, yielding perhaps more opportunities for alternative programming aimed at older demographics. If we consider that the current generation of anime started with Evangelion in 1995, those who were 16 at the time of watching Evangelion are now 33. Those were 16 when Macross aired in 1982 are now 46. But I think the aging of the Eva cohort might have the most interesting effects.

It's an interesting time.
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Old 2012-05-26, 20:29   Link #257
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I'm not so sure, if profits continue to fall, then there won't be resources in the system to fund two shows.

There's also the possibility that they end out cannibalizing their own sales, particularly if they have two shows of a similiar type airing at once. Maybe that's why they've been airing more "mainstream" (IE otaku oriented) shows lately, there's only so many non-mainstream shows the industry can support at once, most of the money is still in Otaku shows. The only alternative is to be aiming at selling a tie in (Like Kaiji with the live action movies etc.).
Well, at least the producers showed their determination, now if only they can work a business model that serves their goals, like other studios and distributors have done, they might end up producing something more than romantic experiments

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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
The main thing in noitaminA's favour is that the viewing (and paying...) audience for Anime is aging, yielding perhaps more opportunities for alternative programming aimed at older demographics. If we consider that the current generation of anime started with Evangelion in 1995, those who were 16 at the time of watching Evangelion are now 33. Those were 16 when Macross aired in 1982 are now 46. But I think the aging of the Eva cohort might have the most interesting effects.

It's an interesting time.
It's feels so painful that I fit into your EVA group (18->31, though for me it was SE: Laine) Anyway be aware that your division also means more obligations and less free time, which leads more to look for simpler less experimental (and not necessarily artistic) entertainment

The mainstream you mentioned is an easy consumer base for japanese animation that for anything decent (by their standards) will at least return the investment. Having wider appeal is very tricky, since incorporating elements that other "groups" will appreciate can easily cut off the sales on that base. Only SHAFT and Sunrise have managed the past few years to gain wider appeal and not lose appeal to that "mainstream".
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Old 2012-05-27, 04:02   Link #258
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Well, Noitamina's bread and butter were adaptations of highly popular manga. The reason why Noitamina even came into existence was because Shueisha wanted Honey & Clover to have an anime adaptation before turning it into a live-action movie adaptation. One thing led to another, Noitamina adapted many popular manga (with Nodame Cantabile probably yielding the most profits), now that popular manga geiser is all but dried up.

One thing I do like about Noitamina's producers is that they have guts to tackle original anime, since the anime industry has traditionally been a trade of adapting stories.
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Old 2012-05-27, 06:48   Link #259
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
It's feels so painful that I fit into your EVA group (18->31, though for me it was SE: Laine) Anyway be aware that your division also means more obligations and less free time, which leads more to look for simpler less experimental (and not necessarily artistic) entertainment

The mainstream you mentioned is an easy consumer base for japanese animation that for anything decent (by their standards) will at least return the investment. Having wider appeal is very tricky, since incorporating elements that other "groups" will appreciate can easily cut off the sales on that base. Only SHAFT and Sunrise have managed the past few years to gain wider appeal and not lose appeal to that "mainstream".
I think part of the issue might be that none of the mainstream "genre fiction" works have contained sufficient elements to target adults rather then the teen/young adult crowd.

As it is right now, only the more "artistic" anime are being tailored towards adults, the vast majority of the bread and butter of anime, the equivalent of "genre fiction" in books, is being aimed at teens. It's always going to be genre fiction that will be the most succesful.

So I think the solution here is to take pre-existing anime genres and "adultify" them. For instance, instead of the harem being a teen and various girls from his school, why not a harem consisting of a young salaryman, and various office ladies from his work place? It would be very easy to transplant the genre wholesale into such a setting. I'm fairly sure it's also been done in manga already as well. In fact many of the original harem were not around school aged teens (think Love Hina)

Likewise, rather then have every mecha pilot be a teen, why not put them in their 20s, or 30s instead?

In fact, tiger and bunny is just such a mainstream example, at it's core it's a fairly lighthearted superhero story, which has been done a fair number of times in anime and manga. The difference was that rather then the protagonist being another teen suddenly discovering his powers, they used a 30 something washed up father, working as a hero like it's a job, leading to new possibilities for plot lines and drama. And the show was very succesful, selling upwards of 20k per volume, with all kinds of tie ins and maybe a sequel in the works.

Likewise, they could also try animating popular manga genres aimed at adults, like salaryman manga.


I'd say the future of anime is not with noitaminA (much as I love the block), but with more shows appearing like Tiger and Bunny. We need all the light entertaining elements that make up the majority of anime, and what gives it it's appeal in the first place, but use those elements in settings that include issues more pertinent to adults.

As a 23 year old, while I enjoy the occasional bout of school antics, I'm finding it more difficult to empathise which such characters. I've realised that the world is a lot bigger then school.
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Old 2012-05-27, 08:00   Link #260
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Honestly, is it that bad to have one block that tries something different from the norm? I get the whole "they could be more popular if they became more mainstream (the anime mainstream)" and they already did that with varying success (GC and Anohana). But what I like about noitaminA is that they show things than normally would rarely be produced. Stuff like Un-Go, Hourou Musuko, Kuragehime, Shiki etc etc would not be produced if it weren't programmed on noitaminA.

Honestly the mainstream stuff WILL be produced but it doesn't have to be on noitaminA does it? Especially from big josei fans (I'd have to say me included) who rarely get their favorite genre shown on a block outside of noitaminA.
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