AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Nanoha

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-05-19, 22:52   Link #2121
al103
Grumpy Russian bear
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Russia, Krasnoyarsk
Age: 33
Send a message via ICQ to al103
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Also, she was just told that she needed to collect magic from other mages to complete the book, not kill those said mages.
She was also shown how it usually goes by Book.
__________________
Proud Nanoha/Yuno/Fate, Caro/Elio/Lutecia, Alto/Sheril/Ranka and Honor/Hamish/Emily shipper. Last one even canon.

PS. Also Nanoha/job, Honor/job and Rein/Agito.
PPS. Proud Athrun/Cagalli/Meyrin shipper.
al103 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-19, 23:17   Link #2122
Mirron
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Mirron Send a message via MSN to Mirron
Aki, we have no idea what this treatment is. It could just be something they say, but is really far less pleasant in reality. Until we actually... you know, have some evidence of what, exactly, this treatment means, I don't really think it's that valid. Could easily be a lure to gather in Eclipse infected people to kill or experiment on. Or have a 50/50 chance of killing you, or some other horribly unpleasant side effect. Or any number of things. Treatment doesn't imply it's 100% cureable each and everytime, or even the majority of the time, or that there truly is one.
Mirron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-19, 23:17   Link #2123
00-Raiser
Burst Mode
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Windsor, Ontario
Age: 27
Send a message via AIM to 00-Raiser
Quote:
Originally Posted by al103 View Post
She was also shown how it usually goes by Book.
Which she promptly forgets about when she wakes up. Those dreams in the sound stages worked as fine exposition for the audience, but Hayate doesn't remember any of it.

Still, the point is Hayate was never consciously in a situation where she had to chose death or murder. Her situation is different from the Huckebeins'.
__________________
00-Raiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-20, 00:34   Link #2124
Arkeus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Which she promptly forgets about when she wakes up. Those dreams in the sound stages worked as fine exposition for the audience, but Hayate doesn't remember any of it.

Still, the point is Hayate was never consciously in a situation where she had to chose death or murder. Her situation is different from the Huckebeins'.
nor are the Huckbein.

Hayate was in a situation where she had a delibating disease that everyone around her is skittish about and she is well aware that it will lead to death, and refuse to even steal magic to get better (not kill, just steal magic).

the huckbein are ready to murder in order to *feel* better.

So far, there is absolutely no hint or proof they need murder to stay alive- just to feel good.
Arkeus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-20, 00:42   Link #2125
Akiyoshi
The Flame Crussader
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Also, she was just told that she needed to collect magic from other mages to complete the book, not kill those said mages. Indeed, the Wolkenritter proved that you didn't need to kill anyone.
She's still tortured by the twins with the choosing of "die or become an avatar of destruction while sleeping forever in a paradise". They tell her right into her face that she's gonna die and that she needs to awake the power of the book in order to erase her suffering. Taking into consideration that she was a sick & frail 9-year old girl, the amount of determination and kindness displayed by refusing behemently to take the "B" option was very impressive(Arguably most of the adult Huckebeins got infected at older ages but that's just especulation). It must be offending to Hayate so see people cynical enough to take option B when they're counscicious that great efforts are made to attend their cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirron View Post
Aki, we have no idea what this treatment is. It could just be something they say, but is really far less pleasant in reality. Until we actually... you know, have some evidence of what, exactly, this treatment means, I don't really think it's that valid. Could easily be a lure to gather in Eclipse infected people to kill or experiment on. Or have a 50/50 chance of killing you, or some other horribly unpleasant side effect. Or any number of things. Treatment doesn't imply it's 100% cureable each and everytime, or even the majority of the time, or that there truly is one.
We don't know that yet, probably the solution involves depowering them or put them on quarentine and they simply don't want to be enclosed, understandably but selfish considering the consequences. And to not start another debate about the Huck's morale let's remeber that we're discussing Hayate's POV, probably Hayate believes in the treatement or thinks is the most safe and noble route to take, considering that if she was on a similar situation she will doing what's best for everyone and not just for herself, of course, as Hayate has demonstrated before she won't surrender on living but she can't afford to live at the cost of other lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Which she promptly forgets about when she wakes up. Those dreams in the sound stages worked as fine exposition for the audience, but Hayate doesn't remember any of it.
I don't know much about the Sound Stages but there are hints that Hayate is counscicious about who the Wolks really are and what they've done in the past. Please, tell me what sound stage are you referring in order to search for the translation xD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Still, the point is Hayate was never consciously in a situation where she had to chose death or murder. Her situation is different from the Huckebeins'.
Well, like i mentioned above she was put in a situation of "die or commit genocide", while i'm like 87% sure that Hayate is trying to learn about the motives of the Hucks for doing what they're doing but as also able to comprehend a situation like that by experience i can understand why she depises the Huck's actions so behemently. And that at least gives me newfound respect for her morals, she understand that the Hucks have a hard life but avoids being blinded by pity and deny their actions of any justification.

Hayate went to the ultimate consequences to avoid being a monster and is ready to amend for her crimes, the Huckebein embraced their monsterhoods and spit on any rules or human rights in order to live another day. Probably Hayate's ultimate goal is to show these guys what responsibility and respect actually means.
__________________
May 29 2010-2014

...4 yeargo, the day after never would be the same

~The ASFB~

Last edited by Akiyoshi; 2011-05-20 at 03:35.
Akiyoshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-20, 01:40   Link #2126
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
She was never told it was fatal, and it only got to that point awhile after the book awakened. Dr Ishida only spoke of the deteriorating condition to Shamal. Obviously Hayate knew something was wrong with her that she had to be hospitalized but at no point did it indicate she thought her condition was fatal.
When people clutch their chest in pure agony, they generally know things are not going well with them and it's not really that hard for anyone to at least have the "I'm going to die" thought jump across their mind. And yet, Hayate did not jump on the offer of healing her with the book. An offer that was still open to her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Also, she was just told that she needed to collect magic from other mages to complete the book, not kill those said mages. Indeed, the Wolkenritter proved that you didn't need to kill anyone.
That only increases her justification. She chose her own suffering over the suffering of others even though in her case nobody even had to die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirron View Post
Aki, we have no idea what this treatment is. It could just be something they say, but is really far less pleasant in reality. Until we actually... you know, have some evidence of what, exactly, this treatment means, I don't really think it's that valid. Could easily be a lure to gather in Eclipse infected people to kill or experiment on. Or have a 50/50 chance of killing you, or some other horribly unpleasant side effect. Or any number of things. Treatment doesn't imply it's 100% cureable each and everytime, or even the majority of the time, or that there truly is one.
This is the TSAB. The happy-happy joy-joy group where anything morally bad is done by rogues. Without any source to base this "it's a trap" logic on, I'm not buying it.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-20, 03:28   Link #2127
Mirron
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Mirron Send a message via MSN to Mirron
I agree, but at the same time, we have no real proof of this actual treatment barring one side material, we have yet to see it in the manga. Further, TSAB also brought up the High Council and all that potentially bad stuff. Nanoha and co. may be good, but we haven't seen enough for me to rule it out as not being as clear cut as it is. If it really is as simple and straight forward a treatment as one quick shot, immediate Eclipse curing, clearly the Huckbeins are in the wrong, especially if there aren't any ulterior motives from the people giving the cure. And no, I don't necessarily expect a shot, just using an example.

And I do want to point out it's not feeling better, it's avoiding dying and losing your mind. It's not like they come down with a case of the cold if they don't kill, it kills them. I'm not saying that it's a good thing, but you're putting it way too lightly if you think it's just feeling better.

For me at least, I just think it's too soon to come to any clear cut calls. This is Nanoha, after all. Very rarely do you encounter straight bad guys, most of the time it's a small part of the overall group that is bad. So while some of the Huckbein are doubtless just evil, I'd say we have yet to see what's truly going on. They definitely aren't doing good things, but we still don't know much about what's going on behind the scenes.
Mirron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-20, 03:56   Link #2128
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 27
Every single 'bad guy' in the TSAB was a rogue or working behind the scenes, and ended up being arrested (if they didn't get themselves killed) when they were brought to light. The TSAB as a whole has always been dead-set against this, if it wasn't these people would not have had to work in the shadows and Nanoha and co. wouldn't have been able to touch them.

I am not saying that the treatment is some insta-fix, or even a full cure, but without some serious evidence or foreshadowing I find the idea that the TSAB is 'very, very evil' and wants to capture Eclipse for experiments while the main cast is the only part of it that's actually good and doesn't know about these experiments ridiculous.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-20, 06:52   Link #2129
00-Raiser
Burst Mode
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Windsor, Ontario
Age: 27
Send a message via AIM to 00-Raiser
Please note that the 'bad guys' in the Bureau were 1.) the head honcho of the ground forces and 2.) the brains who controlled the entire bureau. They were at the top of the food change and if they were corrupt there's no limit on who else could be.
__________________
00-Raiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-20, 09:12   Link #2130
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 27
And until I see any evidence of such corruption in Force, I am going to call nonsense.

Note that I am not denying the possibility of more corruption beyond the three cases we've seen. However, so far there hasn't even been the tiniest shred of evidence that the TSAB is planning something with shadowy with Eclipse infected, which renders the force of the argument... close to null.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-20, 11:43   Link #2131
Mirron
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Mirron Send a message via MSN to Mirron
And we've seen nothing to hint that the cure does anything positive. I mean, this is Nanoha again. How often is the entire opposing team all bad? 2/3 in Season 1, all of them in Season 2 (unless you want to count the defense program as a separate entity, in which case 6/7), and... 7/16 in Season 3? (just did the Numbers, Jail, and Lutecia's group). I just... find it really hard to believe there is a simple cure since it kind of means the entire opposing side chose to keep their powers at the cost of others lives, which makes it really hard to do anything positive with them.

And we have seen something suspicious, such as the scientists experimenting on Lily. Just saying, we've seen something off going on, we just... don't know what, exactly. I'm not saying this is necessarily a corrupt thing, but... again, I find it hard to believe that they have a cure for Eclipse infected people that has zero negative side effects and no ulterior motives.
Mirron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-20, 12:11   Link #2132
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirron View Post
And we've seen nothing to hint that the cure does anything positive.
I don't know id it's actually called a cure, but the term generally implies it has a positive effect. They also use the term 'rescue' for Thoma, instead of the darker 'capture' or even the more ambiguous 'contain.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirron View Post
I mean, this is Nanoha again. How often is the entire opposing team all bad? 2/3 in Season 1, all of them in Season 2 (unless you want to count the defense program as a separate entity, in which case 6/7), and... 7/16 in Season 3? (just did the Numbers, Jail, and Lutecia's group). I just... find it really hard to believe there is a simple cure since it kind of means the entire opposing side chose to keep their powers at the cost of others lives, which makes it really hard to do anything positive with them.
Of course you can. It'll just be more 'turn away from the dark side' than 'oopsie, we had a little misunderstanding.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirron View Post
And we have seen something suspicious, such as the scientists experimenting on Lily. Just saying, we've seen something off going on, we just... don't know what, exactly. I'm not saying this is necessarily a corrupt thing, but... again, I find it hard to believe that they have a cure for Eclipse infected people that has zero negative side effects and no ulterior motives.
Were said scientists part of the TSAB?
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-20, 12:20   Link #2133
Mirron
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Mirron Send a message via MSN to Mirron
It... is Nanoha. You're equating Nanoha and her team with the entire TSAB. They aren't quite the same thing. Just because Nanoha's plan is to rescue him, doesn't mean that TSAB is going to do something.

But bleh, we're looking at this in entirely different ways.
Mirron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-20, 12:23   Link #2134
al103
Grumpy Russian bear
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Russia, Krasnoyarsk
Age: 33
Send a message via ICQ to al103
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Please note that the 'bad guys' in the Bureau were 1.) the head honcho of the ground forces and 2.) the brains who controlled the entire bureau. They were at the top of the food change and if they were corrupt there's no limit on who else could be.
WHUT? TSAB is controlled by Board of Directors. Brains weren't on it. There are also section/department heads... which Brains weren't also (though Regius was). They had advisory or overwatch role. All that they'd done they done by using influence acquired by ages of being in command but NOT using any official status. They relinquished any control they had 65/75 years before series started!
__________________
Proud Nanoha/Yuno/Fate, Caro/Elio/Lutecia, Alto/Sheril/Ranka and Honor/Hamish/Emily shipper. Last one even canon.

PS. Also Nanoha/job, Honor/job and Rein/Agito.
PPS. Proud Athrun/Cagalli/Meyrin shipper.
al103 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-20, 12:29   Link #2135
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirron View Post
It... is Nanoha. You're equating Nanoha and her team with the entire TSAB. They aren't quite the same thing. Just because Nanoha's plan is to rescue him, doesn't mean that TSAB is going to do something.
Yes I am equating them, because the TSAB as an organization consistently does the good thing, while the ones doing the wrong thing are the rogues working in small numbers hiding in the shadows. I have no reason to doubt the entirety of an organization because of a few rogues, especially when there is zero evidence of such corruption in this case.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-20, 13:09   Link #2136
Mirron
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Mirron Send a message via MSN to Mirron
Except there is still something mysterious going on with the entire Eclipse deal, with the scientists and all that. Mostly, again, I just think there is a lot of things going on we just don't know about, and saying that there is a cure, and thus the entire Eclipse group are bad guys because they don't take it... well, just doesn't agree with me. I think they're bad, but I wouldn't base it on that.
Mirron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-20, 13:57   Link #2137
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 27
It's like everyone keeps forgetting that Caledfwlch Techniques is being built-up to look like the bad guys. Obviously, it has to be the TSAB causing the Eclipse!

*facepalms*
__________________
Rising Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-20, 14:10   Link #2138
Akiyoshi
The Flame Crussader
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Nobody said it's a perfect pain-free cure. Eclipse seems to be a very serious disease and the profile call the TSAB's offer a "treatement" not a full on cure, probably involving putting the infected on observation with controlled conditions to mantain their health and sanity to make sure they will survive while the full cure is developed, of course their will be subjected to examinations and checkings on a frequent basis. Probably it's not an instantly happy option but is still better than go with the "serial murderer" route.

That's why i think the Hucks not only elected to live a life of murder just to survive, they also follow that path because is the most easy and comfortable for most of them. But if you like drama there's also the possibility that some of them thinki of themselves as horrible monsters that are already too deep into darkness to accept any chance of repemtion and go with the "psycho killer" behavior because they think there's no other option or salvation for them.
__________________
May 29 2010-2014

...4 yeargo, the day after never would be the same

~The ASFB~
Akiyoshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-20, 14:17   Link #2139
Mirron
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Mirron Send a message via MSN to Mirron
Eh, treatment could imply any number of things. And you're a really poor example of unbiased judgment Aki. :P I'm still waiting to see this treatment in action, and a number of things. Unfortunately, we're still stuck in the revealing phase, where things are still being set up for stuff. We'll find out soon enough more about the Eclipse, the scientists, if Caledfwlch has any role really (given they are named, I expect they'll be at least dealt with a bit, but maybe it's just world building), and a number of other things, such as Huckbein back story.
Mirron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-20, 14:40   Link #2140
Akiyoshi
The Flame Crussader
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Taking into consideration how Raptors are called "the new weapons that will lead to the last part of this story" on their own NEXT design, guess there's not much story left. Taht, or probably this will be pretty much like StrikerS where 90% of the season were conformed by leadings, lampshadings and developings for the real conflict battled in the last 10%.

Well yeah, i'm pretty biased about anything that has something to do directly with Cypha or the Yagami family for a hundred times explained reasons. As long as i don't have the need to talk about any os those reasosn i think i can comment a bit more freely about the story in general. About TSAB's tratement probably we will only get a grap of that at the end of the season when the Hucks get defeated/arrested. Probably they'll take a grasp on the Huck's investigation and thanks to that can come out with a full cure or at least an effective tratement that allows them to live seemingly normal lives(like AIDS tratement or something like that xDU), even if that means they'll need to take the tratement for life.
__________________
May 29 2010-2014

...4 yeargo, the day after never would be the same

~The ASFB~
Akiyoshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
manga, nanoha force

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 14:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.