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Old 2011-02-12, 00:16   Link #201
Justin_Brett
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I'm just taking into account how they've done nothing in the story far other than fight Section Six, and win.

And most GOOD villains represent something else beyond something for the hero to fight. Some idea, concept, or a turning point in the story. To use an example, I was watching a stream of the Marineford Arc in One Piece. Akainu killed Ace, yeah, but he wasn't only there to kill Ace. He was meant to tell the readers that shit got real, among other things.
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Old 2011-02-12, 00:25   Link #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
And most GOOD villains represent something else beyond something for the hero to fight. Some idea, concept, or a turning point in the story.
Heh, not too long ago you were saying how you didn't care if Isis had a deeper connection to the story or not.

Although this shouldn't need to be said, keep in mind that we're only a short ways into the story. For now, the Huck's motivations are partly shrouded in mystery. Karen said they were a poison that would destroy the world, and they seem keen on getting Veyron a reactor so he could become one, too. Not to mention, we still don't know the role of the scientist group in all of this.

It could very well be the Huck's have other plans that we haven't been made aware of. Or if they don't, then no one else does.

In anime terms, this is just the first couple of episode of A's, where we meet the villains but we don't necessarily know their aims or plans. And I know it's the month between chapters thing that is making it seem like this is taking forever. If we had a week between releases, I don't think anyone would be complaining about this stuff much.
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Old 2011-02-12, 00:34   Link #203
Justin_Brett
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I said that mostly because it would ruin Isis' character, honestly. She works far more with simple motivations. She's decided she's going to help Touma, and that's that. Hell, Nanoha's not that deep a character when you get right down to it, but people love her.

How deep a goal could these guys have? Even you've said they just seem to want to be left alone, and suddenly declaring they want to destroy entire worlds would make them completely unsympathetic out of nowhere. And even if the scientists have a plot in mind, that doesn't automatically make them deeper by association.
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Old 2011-02-12, 01:12   Link #204
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I consider it one possibility that the Huck's just want to be left alone, and to gather others like them into their family. But considering what Karen refers to them as, it's another possibility that they want to be left alone... so they can accomplish whatever it is they are planning. We'll probably find out more after this battle is over.
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Old 2011-02-12, 01:18   Link #205
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
And most GOOD villains represent something else beyond something for the hero to fight. Some idea, concept, or a turning point in the story.
You think this doesn't?

The Bureau is using MASS-BASED weapons for their mages for the first time since... Well, the wars ended.

(There are people who have guns, but very small amounts.)
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Old 2011-02-12, 02:00   Link #206
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Although this shouldn't need to be said, keep in mind that we're only a short ways into the story. For now, the Huck's motivations are partly shrouded in mystery. Karen said they were a poison that would destroy the world, and they seem keen on getting Veyron a reactor so he could become one, too. Not to mention, we still don't know the role of the scientist group in all of this.
How did you know that, Ch. 13 id finally released xD?
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Old 2011-02-12, 02:56   Link #207
Justin_Brett
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You think this doesn't?

The Bureau is using MASS-BASED weapons for their mages for the first time since... Well, the wars ended.

(There are people who have guns, but very small amounts.)
Until the story shows that as a major development in some way (protest groups, military politics, stuff like that), I'm going to view the new weapons as just a way for Section Six to potentially beat them. More an off-shoot of how powerful they are than anything else.
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Old 2011-02-12, 05:54   Link #208
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Until the story shows that as a major development in some way (protest groups, military politics, stuff like that), I'm going to view the new weapons as just a way for Section Six to potentially beat them. More an off-shoot of how powerful they are than anything else.
Unfortunately, this have totally slipped past Tsuzuki's priorities. Have you ever thought of a possible ressentment from the non-mage population about the blatant treatment of favor that mages are receiving in the form of fast promotion? And what about the unfortunate implication that the system is rotten by rampant nepotism? Isn't enough to anger a bunch of people left in the sidelines and have them creating some faction ranging plain old protest group to domestic terrorist cells? Don't you think that the huckies crisis coupled with the mass based weapon ban should be enough to fuel a MASSIVE RAGE from the grunts and the normal population who would claim the right for self defense?

Tsuzuki appears to not see beyond showing his enthusiasm for tropes inherited from Super robot War, new mecha parts and duels that pretend to be a war. He don't seem to realize that he have created a powderkeg waiting to explode, he is not realizing that he have created one of the most fucked up societies in the way that it made The Free Planets Alliance from Legend of Galactic Heroes appear like a perfectly functional utopia.

When you run all of that through your mind and let it sink, horror hit you.
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Old 2011-02-12, 07:01   Link #209
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
The Bureau is using MASS-BASED weapons for their mages for the first time since... Well, the wars ended.
Except that Vice's reaction to seeing a gun was "oh, that's rare" instead of "eek, a gun, Sankt Kaiser help me!", implying the regulations regarding small arms are not that strict.

Mass-based heavy weapons, powerful enough to damage a warship, on the other hand...

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Unfortunately, this have totally slipped past Tsuzuki's priorities. Have you ever thought of a possible resentment from the non-mage population about the blatant treatment of favor that mages are receiving in the form of fast promotion? And what about the unfortunate implication that the system is rotten by rampant nepotism? Isn't enough to anger a bunch of people left in the sidelines and have them creating some faction ranging plain old protest group to domestic terrorist cells? Don't you think that the huckies crisis coupled with the mass based weapon ban should be enough to fuel a MASSIVE RAGE from the grunts and the normal population who would claim the right for self defense?

When you run all of that through your mind and let it sink, horror hit you.
You forgot the most basic, one that was shown way back from the original series, long before we saw the rest of TSAB society: the TSAB considers employing nine-year olds into the combat zone as legal; viewers just never think much about it since the protagonist considered it to be her true calling and jumped at the call.
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Old 2011-02-12, 08:06   Link #210
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You forgot the most basic, one that was shown way back from the original series, long before we saw the rest of TSAB society: the TSAB considers employing nine-year olds into the combat zone as legal; viewers just never think much about it since the protagonist considered it to be her true calling and jumped at the call.
Another bit of fridge horror regarding that verse. Nanoha and Hayate ARE nobodies on Earth. Run that through your mind and see all the implications it have.
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Old 2011-02-12, 08:25   Link #211
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I have no idea how you all have the patience to go back to each individual post and reply to each one, so I'll just do it generally.

To the people complaining about the uninteresting motivations of the Huckebein that make them crappy antagonists, I think you're thinking about this all wrong. Despite everything that we spend our time bitching about, Touma is ostensibly the protagonist of Force. Yes, I know, it's hard to tell. The rest of the roles fall in place in relation to him. Therefore, so far, I see two groups of antagonists in Force--the Huckebein and the TSAB. And so far, it's hard to see how the two groups of antagonists will drive Touma's story.

As for the Huckebein themselves, I think that the banality of their motivations makes them interesting in the context of the TSAB motivations. Though you can argue about evilness and morality with regards to their individual members, the Huckebein on the whole (so far) operates on the principle of "We know we're on the fringes of society, so we try to stay out of your hair and not bother anyone in your charge. You leave us alone, and we'll leave you alone." What's Hayate's response to this? "We'll take steps to stop crime outside of our jurisdiction"? WHOA NELLY! That's a bold statement there. What does that imply for TSAB policy? Forget how our "heroes" (they feel like cogs in the military machine, simply taking orders from above, personally) feel. How does the TSAB truly feel about the Huckebein? Add that to its allowing its top mages to finally use mass-based weaponry, I personally am excited for upcoming changes and developments within the TSAB.

And once again, to address the "Haxbein", they are still a largely unknown enemy. They had some limited information on the Huckebein, and they really didn't get much out of Signum's battle. I mean, if she's still unconscious, what could they have learned? Non-5th gen, non-AEC weapons are not fit for use against the Huckebein? They already knew that; Signum already knew that. Its members are very dangerous? It's likely that they knew that. You can argue about the timing of the Wolfram's confrontation with the Huckebein, but Section 6 did take measures to be more prepared. They took the people most suited for the mission, armed them with the best (effective) weapons they had, and sent them off for an initial engagement. Personally, this battle works better if you see it as a probe into enemy strength and capabilities, as well as field-testing for an entirely new class of weapons. It turned out to be a battle that is far harder than anyone probably expected, but any other unit would've been even more screwed, and the next time Section 6 faces the Huckebein, they'll actually have actionable intelligence and tuned weapons.
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Old 2011-02-12, 10:49   Link #212
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Originally Posted by TheRainbowConnection View Post
the Huckebein on the whole (so far) operates on the principle of "We know we're on the fringes of society, so we try to stay out of your hair and not bother anyone in your charge. You leave us alone, and we'll leave you alone." What's Hayate's response to this? "We'll take steps to stop crime outside of our jurisdiction"? WHOA NELLY! That's a bold statement there. What does that imply for TSAB policy? Forget how our "heroes" (they feel like cogs in the military machine, simply taking orders from above, personally) feel.
The colonies are Administrated Worlds. They are under TSAB jurisdiction.

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Personally, this battle works better if you see it as a probe into enemy strength and capabilities, as well as field-testing for an entirely new class of weapons. It turned out to be a battle that is far harder than anyone probably expected, but any other unit would've been even more screwed, and the next time Section 6 faces the Huckebein, they'll actually have actionable intelligence and tuned weapons.
I want to believe that this was all a probing mission, but chapter 8 indicates that Hayate had a "we'll end this right here, right now" mindset. Not out of character for a Magical Girl story, but since people keep insisting that this is a war story...

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Another bit of fridge horror regarding that verse. Nanoha and Hayate ARE nobodies on Earth. Run that through your mind and see all the implications it have.
This is why I'm conflicted with the whole "adding WAR to the title" thing. There's just some things from a magical girl story that we can handwave because its normal for the genre, but doesn't translates well into a more serious story (unless you're aiming for a deconstruction a la Madoka).

Spoiler for Think too hard and you'll realized that TSAB is actually a few steps away from this:


Like I said before,
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Either Tsuzuki actually did try to turn this into a war story but failed to properly research or he just add 'War' in the title so it sounds 'cool' (I'm guessing the latter)
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Old 2011-02-12, 11:45   Link #213
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well check the translation again, its something like war chronicle, so its a set of stories about major conflicts?
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Old 2011-02-12, 12:06   Link #214
Justin_Brett
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Therefore, so far, I see two groups of antagonists in Force--the Huckebein and the TSAB. And so far, it's hard to see how the two groups of antagonists will drive Touma's story.
See, that also could have been interesting if Nanoha and co didn't have to be in this story. It could have been a nice perspective flip for people who have to fight the TSAB's forces (although they'd probably have to tone down his powers to make a more desperate situation). But no, he knows Subaru, he knows everybody, there's no need to worry at all anymore.

Missed opportunity.
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Old 2011-02-12, 12:11   Link #215
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
See, that also could have been interesting if Nanoha and co didn't have to be in this story. It could have been a nice perspective flip for people who have to fight the TSAB's forces (although they'd probably have to tone down his powers to make a more desperate situation). But no, he knows Subaru, he knows everybody, there's no need to worry at all anymore.

Missed opportunity.
And people would have bitched even worse about not having Nanoha and wondering where she is.
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Old 2011-02-12, 12:26   Link #216
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
I said that mostly because it would ruin Isis' character, honestly. She works far more with simple motivations. She's decided she's going to help Touma, and that's that. Hell, Nanoha's not that deep a character when you get right down to it, but people love her.
I disagree with Isis being a simple character. She's been shown to be more mysterious than just a simple traveling tailor ever since the first chapter she appeared in, where she already showed to have some history with the bureau and wanting to avoid them. Then later she turned out to have superhuman strength and be an explosive user who hid her weapons as tailoring materials, she's arguably the biggest box of mysteries in the entire series at this point.

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You think this doesn't?

The Bureau is using MASS-BASED weapons for their mages for the first time since... Well, the wars ended.

(There are people who have guns, but very small amounts.)
But unless this is actually touched upon beyond just a simple commentary left or right, it is largely irrelevant to the story. Heck, only people who actively dig into the background like us would even notice any difference.
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Old 2011-02-12, 12:28   Link #217
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Not everyone is gonna like everything. Thus, no matter what happens, there is gonna be someone who is gonna bitch.

Me personally... I have no issues with the Hucks or the way the TSAB society is presented. It is quite plausible. Hell, the Star Trek Federation worlds are the more implausible to me. Eliminated money? Eliminated Bigotry? Everyone works for high ideals instead? Psh.
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Old 2011-02-12, 12:54   Link #218
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
I'm just taking into account how they've done nothing in the story far other than fight Section Six, and win.

And most GOOD villains represent something else beyond something for the hero to fight. Some idea, concept, or a turning point in the story. To use an example, I was watching a stream of the Marineford Arc in One Piece. Akainu killed Ace, yeah, but he wasn't only there to kill Ace. He was meant to tell the readers that shit got real, among other things.
Done nothing other than fight Section Six, huh? You forget that they were key in providing exposition to Thoma, letting him and us know about what kind of situation he's actually in.

And they do represent something beyond something for the heroes fight. Like I've said before, they're people stuck in an unfortunate situation where they have to kill to live. They represent how people will do what they need to when pushed into a corner, even if such things aren't deemed acceptable. They show that even if they are non-repentant killers, they still have values and care for their family deeply. Also, like Akainu, they also show that shit got real.

Like has been said, they haven't gotten much of a chance to do much else.

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Unfortunately, this have totally slipped past Tsuzuki's priorities. Have you ever thought of a possible ressentment from the non-mage population about the blatant treatment of favor that mages are receiving in the form of fast promotion?
You forget that that was exactly Regius's motivation for doing what he did. The Navy snapped up all the talented mages, leaving the ground forces greatly under powered. That's why he resorted to the Combat Cyborg project.
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Old 2011-02-12, 13:07   Link #219
Justin_Brett
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Again, Raiser, unless they actually begin to be protrayed like that, I don't see why I should view them as such when they haven't really been all that sympathetic. Any arguments for them are pretty much entirely fanon at this point.

And one can argue that shit was already fairly real in the Nanoha universe, even as far back as season 1. Precia did that job way better than the Huckebeins. One Piece was infamous for not letting any character die on-screen, and when that happened, it was something. Have one of the Huckebeins kill an important character, and yeah, then I'll agree with that.
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Old 2011-02-12, 13:11   Link #220
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Again, Raiser, unless they actually begin to be protrayed like that, I don't see why I should view them as such when they haven't really been all that sympathetic. Any arguments for them are pretty much entirely fanon at this point.
The Wolkenritter weren't sympathetic in A's during the first battle.

I've heard people say "what a bitch" when they saw Shamal ripping out Nanoha's Linker Core.
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