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Old 2011-05-29, 14:42   Link #2201
Rising Dragon
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I know the footstomp was rule of cool. And as such it shows that it is legitimate. Saying it's the only friggin' instance and that it's impossible for everyone else? That's where I'll draw a line.

So, another example then? How about Nanoha holding Teana up in the air one-handed by a knife blade? How's that for magic simply enhancing someone's strength?

Another armor without device example is Einhart, if you want to go there as well.
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Old 2011-05-29, 14:47   Link #2202
Akiyoshi
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The upgraded version of that scene shows a pink glowing on Teana, so it looks more like if Nanoha is holding Teana up on the air with her "floater" magic rather than a right out strenght enhacing(also even with the strenght bump, holding someone straight in the air by holding something as small as a Knife's blade is just plain illogical).

Giving you a point on the "armor without device" thing, tough. Just as you said Einhart can cast her own armor without any device(still don't change the fact that is apparently a rare skill).
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Old 2011-05-29, 14:51   Link #2203
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Isis had her device and its unusual chemical component concealed in several parts disguised to look like something else. She's extremely tough. She's clever, educated, and good at concealing her identity and intentions.

Isis is a complete and absolute badass, joining an established badass-studded cast with which she can compete. Can we please accept this plain and simple fact hanging in front of our eyes and stop picking on the awesome new girl?
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Old 2011-05-29, 14:52   Link #2204
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Maybe, but it's not like seeing it show up on three characters is that big of a deal. Out of a rather large cast overall.
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Old 2011-05-29, 14:59   Link #2205
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
The upgraded version of that scene shows a pink glowing on Teana, so it looks more like if Nanoha is holding Teana up on the air with her "floater" magic rather than a right out strenght enhacing(also even with the strenght bump, holding someone straight in the air by holding something as small as a Knife's blade is just plain illogical).
How about the dozens of times people were send crashing into or through concrete walls? Hell, what about the entirety of Vivid?

Superstrength with magic is a very valid explanation for Isis's chainbreaking.
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Old 2011-05-29, 15:03   Link #2206
Akiyoshi
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Isis had her device and its unusual chemical component concealed in several parts disguised to look like something else.
Still i don't think she can conceal something like devices or components by disguise those to look like parts of her NAKED body xDU(unless, of course, her body contain some "extra space").

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Isis is a complete and absolute badass, joining an established badass-studded cast with which she can compete. Can we please accept this plain and simple fact hanging in front of our eyes and stop picking on the awesome new girl?
I'm not picking on Isis, if anything, she's actually MORE Badass than the rest of the cast, being able to outperform "years in developement" anti-Eclipse specialized equipement with a custom device, being tough and brave enough to continue to fight despite a horrible wound on her neck(unlike some pussies that fell down just after a couple of slices or a simple impalement), and being feared by the guys that make everyone esle to look like a bunch of noobs. The only person around i think can out-Badass Isis is Curren herself.

Isis is too badass to be a simple mage, there's too much lampshading around her and she's one of the new mains so, something amazing must be hidden inside her.

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How about the dozens of times people were send crashing into or through concrete walls? Hell, what about the entirety of Vivid?
It's also present on A's and is naturally attributted to field or barrier, so it's more like "enhaced resilence" rather than "enhaced strenght", as Nanoha at the time was physically just a frail 9-year old girl.

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Superstrength with magic is a very valid explanation for Isis's chainbreaking.
It's hard to take on it because normally said strenght augmentation is acompanied by a glow, or a sound that lampshades the fact that magic is being used, but being a manga(and one with some depiction problems) it's hard to identify, to me it looked more like Isis is just so freaking strong that she's able to bend metal with her bare hands(like i've said that was actually lampshaded by Isis herself). for now it's still plausible as i don't have solid info to confirm that the rrom Isis was held captive is influenced by an anti-magic effect.

If anything Isis's mighty strenght can be also an addition to her incresingly list of badass traits.
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Old 2011-05-29, 15:15   Link #2207
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You keep dancing around the issue when it comes to the older series, so I'll just point to Vivid and let you explain that entire series away. No glow, cutting apart water, the kids there break training equipment and then throw a fit because they forgot to hold back and all this without even using a device.

Is Isis possibly a cyborg? Maybe. Can her superstrength be attributed to magic? Yes.
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Old 2011-05-29, 15:22   Link #2208
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Yup, without colors or evidence is hard to me to follow things accurately, in manga the ultimate evidence is exposition rather than visuals. I can't bring myself to make an absolute statement about the girls on Vivid, the "watwer cut" thing seems to be a special "striker arts" technique involving more the use of dynamics and practice rather than actual magic, but nothing about that is confirmed or denied yet, other theory can be that the girls in Vivid(at least the melee oriented ones) can use "magic" ona very similar fashon to "ki", "chi", "vital energy" or whatever source of energy the shounen martial artists use to power their attacks and moves.

In FORCE i think is a bit easier to come up with explanations because the setting is inviting us to ditch already "magical girl" tropes, ordinary magen can't hold a light on this enviroment so i thing something more "special" than magic will be behind Isis physical prowess.
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Old 2011-05-29, 15:32   Link #2209
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Well, remember that the Hucks were planning to let Isis go and give her back all her stuff. Her bag might even have been in the same room with her, which would solve the question of where her device and jacket came from: just offscreen.

Second of all, her arms were just wrapped in cloth and secured with straps (because if it were a proper straitjacket we wouldn't get to see her boobs and we can't have that now, can we). She worked loose from that the same way anybody would: you push and tug on it until something slips. The leg-irons I'd say was a magical shattering thingy. Arnage recognized that Isis could escape whenever she wanted to and wasn't terribly surprised when she did.

Anyway, it's entirely probable that she has some sort of rare skill, but I'd wager it's probably more in the way of genius smarts and inventiveness or natural capacity than some lost magic or combat cyborgery. You can't write off everyday folk who work hard to get their ability- they outmatch one-trick ponies any day of the week. Nanoha herself is kind of the example to note here.
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Old 2011-05-29, 15:43   Link #2210
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And why exactly does she have to be a cyborg?
Well, we have three things so far:

- She's afraid of being identified by the TSAB, and while a private contractor group might be viewed with a little suspicion by some people, I suppose, but just being related to someone from that wouldn't be cause for deportation on its own.

- Such a company would probably have a lot of resources available to it, along with connections. Jail wasn't the only one who was capable of creating combat cyborgs, after all.

- She got her neck broken and was still able to move around and fight. That's probably the biggest tell right there; not too many organic life forms capable of pulling that off.
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Old 2011-05-29, 15:46   Link #2211
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I still say the "broken neck" thing was the big guy overestimating himself. He meant to decapitate her and couldn't do that. Why are you so sure he didn't assume wrong about her neck breaking?
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Old 2011-05-29, 15:48   Link #2212
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Well, in that panel of her in the ocean, she looked pretty messed up. Even if it wasn't a full on break, that's a sensitive area to get hit in.
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Old 2011-05-29, 15:50   Link #2213
Koveras Alvane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcc View Post
I still say the "broken neck" thing was the big guy overestimating himself. He meant to decapitate her and couldn't do that. Why are you so sure he didn't assume wrong about her neck breaking?
I think he said something along the lines of "I felt her neck snap" when talking to Arnage.
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Old 2011-05-29, 15:52   Link #2214
Arcc
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He said so, but I'm fairly sure he was wrong about that.
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Old 2011-05-29, 15:54   Link #2215
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That's a little interesting, actually, now that I think of it. Can the Hucks feel things through their Dividers?
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Old 2011-05-29, 16:01   Link #2216
Rising Dragon
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That's a little interesting, actually, now that I think of it. Can the Hucks feel things through their Dividers?
Maybe. When Cypha Reacted, her whole body was the Divider.
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Old 2011-05-29, 16:04   Link #2217
Keroko
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Yup, without colors or evidence is hard to me to follow things accurately, in manga the ultimate evidence is exposition rather than visuals. I can't bring myself to make an absolute statement about the girls on Vivid, the "watwer cut" thing seems to be a special "striker arts" technique involving more the use of dynamics and practice rather than actual magic, but nothing about that is confirmed or denied yet, other theory can be that the girls in Vivid(at least the melee oriented ones) can use "magic" ona very similar fashon to "ki", "chi", "vital energy" or whatever source of energy the shounen martial artists use to power their attacks and moves.
Y'know, claiming that the girls in Vivid can create towers of water without magic doesn't really help your case, and the later just supports the point.

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That's a little interesting, actually, now that I think of it. Can the Hucks feel things through their Dividers?
I'd say no, as we've seen nothing to hint that they can, but the feeling of material shattering doesn't require any mystical connection to your tools.
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Old 2011-05-29, 16:10   Link #2218
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Anybody can feel things through an implement, moreso with practice. But I'd say whether he was correct in his assessment is up for debate.
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Old 2011-05-29, 16:12   Link #2219
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Oh, well I'm an idiot then.

Still, I'd say Deville's probably skilled enough with that thing to be pretty close with such an assessment.

Also noteworthy: the same chapter seemed to imply that a blow from him would have killed Nanoha.

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Old 2011-05-29, 16:28   Link #2220
Arcc
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Possibly, but if your attack's intention fails altogether, you can't be very sure as to how well you've managed to inflict lesser injuries. DeVille's intention was a clean cut, and he was stopped. There are grounds for misinterpretation in that, and DeVille seems like a proud fellow (plus it was a suspense factor for the next chapter).

She was bleeding from her wound and certainly in a great deal of pain when we cut back to her, but we never saw her neck out of alignment. If she'd anticipated the attack without any time to evade, she might still have been able to change the blow's angle with her white perfume (which can alter vectors) or otherwise do something to soften the impact.
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