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Old 2011-05-31, 18:00   Link #2301
Justin_Brett
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Oh shit, you're probably right.
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Old 2011-05-31, 19:06   Link #2302
Akiyoshi
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I bet she's more interested in the lab they rescued Lily from.
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Oh shit, you're probably right.
Good point, if that were the case it will bring down the theory that the scientist from Ch. 1 are the ones behind the Hucks's activities.
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Old 2011-05-31, 19:21   Link #2303
Arcc
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I'm more with the theory that it's a secret Caledfwlch lab.

Caledfwlch seems like if left unchecked, it could develop into something like Cerberus (as we knew it pre-ME2). Right now it's an experimental R&D group with some very sketchy-looking projects and possibly shady dealings, but it's still officially sanctioned by somebody and in the military's employ. . . for now.
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Old 2011-05-31, 19:35   Link #2304
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I sure hope they don't pull the 'maverick groups' card on their really evil actions to keep their leader remotely morally ambiguous like Cerberus, if so.
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Old 2011-05-31, 19:38   Link #2305
Akiyoshi
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Which reminds me of the surprise i receive while watching the page with a Raptor walking for the first time, those things are HUGE(those drones can probably tower over Zafira and Deville), the common sized female scientist looks like a midget walking by it's side.
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Old 2011-05-31, 19:51   Link #2306
Arcc
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I sure hope they don't pull the 'maverick groups' card on their really evil actions to keep their leader remotely morally ambiguous like Cerberus, if so.

I never personally understood how there could anything morally ambiguous about the Illusive Man being a psychotic evil bastard. The dude excuses himself with mafia logic- the easiest psychological trap to think your way out of ever. But it gets to be a pain when the writers somehow think it works.

I am with you 100% on this, Justin, but remember the genre we're in. I know you're not terribly happy with the writing in FORCE thus far, but you can at least know for sure that Nanoha is the straightforward heroine who would call bullshit on the Illusive man in less than ten seconds. Because the tenth second is the part where she blows up his space station.
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Old 2011-05-31, 21:37   Link #2307
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Well, they do seem to be trying for a generally more ambiguous thing this season, at least with the Hucks. They could certainly do it better, but they're making the attempt.

...or at least nobody's really called any of them out in a meaningful way yet, so the story could say that's not the case in the future.
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Old 2011-06-01, 00:56   Link #2308
Koveras Alvane
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Blagh, sorry. I seem to have a broken radar that brands ever post talking about Signum in some negative way as one of Aki's or Justin's posts.

Conditioning, I guess.
Stereotypes, stereotypes. %)

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I like how she looks with her barrier jacket open like that.
Subtle fanservice is always best. ^^

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I never personally understood how there could anything morally ambiguous about the Illusive Man being a psychotic evil bastard. The dude excuses himself with mafia logic- the easiest psychological trap to think your way out of ever. But it gets to be a pain when the writers somehow think it works.
It's not just the writers, obviously. And everyone has their pet peeve tropes...

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Because the tenth second is the part where she blows up his space station.
...without needing any fancy overload codes. Ergo, Nanoha > Shepard.
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Old 2011-06-01, 01:22   Link #2309
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I never personally understood how there could anything morally ambiguous about the Illusive Man being a psychotic evil bastard. The dude excuses himself with mafia logic- the easiest psychological trap to think your way out of ever. But it gets to be a pain when the writers somehow think it works.
It's not just that the writers think it works, it actually works. Believe me I've lost count of the amount of people who think the Illusive Man is really a good guy and are both confused and outraged that he turned on you in ME3.
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Old 2011-06-01, 02:01   Link #2310
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Hmmm. Well, I guess I understand what that's about. A lot of people, when given a bad option and a slightly better alternative, seem incapable of thinking about other possibilities, with the occasional and usually inapplicable exception of Occam's.

When people like the Illusive Man talk about "making the hard choices," it means they're actually making the safe choices. People who say "at any cost" are less determined to take risks and take the difficult steps to win it all. What they don't get is that pragmatism and idealism aren't mutually exclusive- you actually need one to be effective at the other. To be good, you just need to be be good enough. If you see all the angles, and have enough irons in the fire, so to speak, you can bust an unbelievable number of impossible situations on your terms. I think I was the only person who went to see The Dark Knight and walked away painfully disappointed and depressed because I'd figured out how Batman could have saved both Dent and Rachel. He's supposed to be the genius Holmesian hero who's better at seeing all this than anybody.

Well, like I said, I get why they do it but to me it just looks so silly when people fall for that sort of manipulative fallacy. And I may be an idealist (partly because I've found it's a much tastier way to live than cynicism), but when I made that decision I made sure I didn't let anybody or anything else build my principles for me, lest they become putty in another's hands. I guess I was just raised weird. Dark Helmet was right about one thing- Why must good always be so dumb?
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Last edited by Arcc; 2011-06-01 at 02:11.
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Old 2011-06-01, 03:26   Link #2311
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Because if good is smart, the bad guys don't stand a chance.
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Old 2011-06-01, 11:32   Link #2312
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Why must good always be so dumb?
Law of Bruce: The smartness of a story is capped by the intelligence of its antagonist.

See it this way: the protagonist is the starting point, the antagonist is the ending one. The (geographical, social, intellectual) gap between them is where the story will naturally play out. That said, there is a way to circumvent it: good can be smarter than evil... if it plays an antagonistic role. But our literary tradition has a strong prejudice against that. ^^
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Old 2011-06-01, 11:43   Link #2313
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So it's less a case of "Good is Dumb" and more like "Protagonist is Dumb"?

Well it make sense at some point but there are stories where this is better applied, in other words, stories that manage to give the impression that the antagonist is indeed very cunning and smart but also without make the heroes to look like a bunch of morons, that way it actually make the villain even cooler because they're able to outsmart a group of actually smart and capable people. Section Six is definetly not the case xDU.
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Old 2011-06-01, 11:48   Link #2314
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It's much easier to make a dumb hero than a smart villain, since you're limited by the abilities of the writer - can't write beyond your own abilities!

Naturally this makes me worry about the kind of people who do come up with truly brilliant villains...
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Old 2011-06-01, 11:51   Link #2315
Akiyoshi
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Naturally this makes me worry about the kind of people who do come up with truly brilliant villains...
Beware the evilness of Tsugumi Ōba, writer of Death Note xD!(even "L" is kind of villanous sometimes o.O!)
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Last edited by Akiyoshi; 2011-06-01 at 13:28.
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Old 2011-06-01, 13:24   Link #2316
Justin_Brett
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Well if we're talking about Mass Effect, Paragon Shepard is a pretty smart guy, or at least level-headed enough to know why Renegade decisions might not work out in the long run.

Most Nanoha heroes are fairly intelligent, too.
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Old 2011-06-01, 13:45   Link #2317
Akiyoshi
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Most Nanoha heroes are fairly intelligent, too.
I'll say skilled rather than intelligent.

While all them are capable and cunning fighters they tend to do some awfull descisions from time to time, also their logic is a bit weird sometimes, specially when a mid-season climatic battle is involved. On early seasons this was easier to digest because the plot itself is pretty simple: Nanoha fights against some conflicted people she wants to help but said people didn't want to talk and feel bad abot themselves. The plot can be resolved in five minutes if some of this nice-but-troubled people accept to have a talk with the heroes but that will deny us from epic battles and flashy powers so it's understandable.

It's when they decided to make things more elaborated and complicated where the logic started to contrast with the plot. The setting, the risks and the characters themselve matured but the writing stays mostly the same and while StrikerS have it's own very enjoyable moments it was also a very challenging series to my own logis and is very demanding of my willing suspension of disbelief to overcome various details. Again, it was easier in S1 and A's because the story isn't very complicated so we can still take for granted some foolish moves from the heroes and villains(admiteddly, the Wolkenritter aren't precisely the smartest villains of the universe xDU) an roll with that. From StrikerS onwards is supposed that they're now "mature" more deep and councsious of the risks around them and taking descicions that affect more people than just them and their opponents. But sometimes i felled that the efforts to make clear that "they're not kids anymore" are too obvious thus ending being a bit unconvincing. All in all, by this point the fan is already connected to the characters and thus more willing to wiothstand this kind of mistakes but sometimes, only sometimes, there are screwings so notorios that simply can't be overlooked that easily xDU.
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Old 2011-06-01, 14:30   Link #2318
Koveras Alvane
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Naturally this makes me worry about the kind of people who do come up with truly brilliant villains...
Writing good villains doesn't mean you can be one. Just like playing a doctor on TV doesn't make you one IRL...
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Old 2011-06-01, 17:13   Link #2319
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Curious, perhaps incorrect, comparison. Playing a doctor is not writing about a doctor. People write from experience and imagination, but the good writers (not counting the classic ones hopped up on LSD) are best known for the works they write within their realm of experience. Most writers say to write from experience. Now, no, you do not need to be evil, but studying the human mind helps, for sure.
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Old 2011-06-02, 02:41   Link #2320
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Curious, perhaps incorrect, comparison. Playing a doctor is not writing about a doctor. People write from experience and imagination, but the good writers (not counting the classic ones hopped up on LSD) are best known for the works they write within their realm of experience. Most writers say to write from experience. Now, no, you do not need to be evil, but studying the human mind helps, for sure.
I have both played (on stage) and written (on paper) villains before and the biggest difference I noticed between fiction and RL in that aspect is: in fiction, everything goes right for the villain right up to the ending; IRL, everyone screws everything up from day one. Therefore, I think that writing villains and being villain are two distinct sets of skills: one is about tweaking events to make them look realistic and epically dangerous, the other is about managing a perpetual crisis. ^^
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