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Old 2011-08-07, 14:56   Link #3241
Rising Dragon
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It could be taken a number of ways. Stella's words certainly wouldn't put them in a favorable light during a trial if they were defeated and arrested, after all.
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Old 2011-08-07, 15:02   Link #3242
Justin_Brett
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Well neither would what Fortis said to Touma if he decided to talk to the TSAB about it instead of joining them.

The people in charge here really seem to have big mouths.
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Old 2011-08-07, 15:03   Link #3243
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Yeah, but then Touma was just one person they were convinced they could persuade him to join. I doubt any of them were expecting to have the Wolfram knocking on their door only moments later.
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Old 2011-08-07, 15:07   Link #3244
Justin_Brett
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Just saying, if someone decides you're not his kind of people, you don't really want to have him leave with information that would make you look particularly bad to an organization you're trying to avoid. At least more info than you already gave him by making him your guest, anyway.
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Old 2011-08-07, 15:13   Link #3245
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They didn't figure he was going to kill himself. Which is kind of a logical assumption to make from people who stood where Thoma was standing at that point.

Besides, it's not as if they gave away any critical information anyway. All they told him was "You have a deadly virus that forces you to kill or it'll eat you, and we have a treatment that makes it somewhat better. If you want it, you join us. Also yes, we are a group who kills people." That's not really information I'd call critical.

Yeah, it makes you look bad to a law enforcement organization. But that assumes they want to hide that fact in the first place, something I have yet to see them so much as try to do. I mean, they already are known criminals. It'd be like the mafia letting someone go if they promise not to tell them the mafia are criminals.
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Old 2011-08-07, 15:15   Link #3246
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Well, Fortis was actually telling her to stop because she was leaking too much information about themselves, (did not state that he disagreed with her.)

Let's try to clear this up: Does the Huckebein really care about anyone who isn't a member of their family, or an asset to their family?

They have a very "us versus the world" mentality. Killing people, or the thought of it certainly doesn't make any of them feel a whole lot in particular, but each other is off limits.

Now, could they certainly do a lot more damage if they wanted to? I really don't see why not. But they do have a measure of control over themselves and their urges for wanton homicide, it's the whole reason why they're not blobs of meat in a tube.

But is it restraint out of concern for other people? Nothing at all suggests that. It's a restraint born of caution.

No, they don't conform to society in general. They can't. Eclipse virus is the wedge. Yes, it is tragic in a way.

But the TSAB has a sworn duty to uphold the lives of all people underneath their jurisdiction. Even if Precia was crazy enough to not even acknowledge Fate as real, even if the Book of Darkness was being controlled by factors outside of her control, even if Jail did not have free will in a sense different from humans, all of that still doesn't provide any kind of justification for the TSAB to absolve or waiver their responsibility. There should be no exceptions. It's not perfect, but I hardly remember anyone claiming that the TSAB was as such.

All of that said, I would've much preferred the Huckebein had they taken a cue from the Genei Ryodan and accepted that /all/ life is cheap, including their own. Especially their own. Arnage won no points from me after shooting at Nanoha and then talking about how she hated people like her.
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Old 2011-08-07, 15:15   Link #3247
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He could also say what their ship looks like, what their members look like...

But yeah, you are right, they're not very good at the whole secretive thing - good thing that's no longer part of their game plan, I suppose.
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Old 2011-08-07, 15:18   Link #3248
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Judging by the behavior of the Huckebein and the Bureau, the Bureau already knew what the Esquad Huckebein looked like. They did imply they'd tangled with it in battle before.
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Old 2011-08-07, 15:30   Link #3249
Kuze
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Hayate did know the specifications for the ship, so yes, someone tangled with the ship before.

Or maybe a Shadow spy managed to sneak up, and take a nice long observation of the craft with telemetry and signal receivers.

.....and now I have an idea of an undercover agent working before StrikerS trying to follow the trail of manufactured materials, funds, and equipment being moved to Jail's workshop, while Fate works on the combat side of things. Curse you Boast98 simulator and ridiculous Bolivian university work schedule!
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Old 2011-08-07, 16:06   Link #3250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuze View Post
But the TSAB has a sworn duty to uphold the lives of all people underneath their jurisdiction. Even if Precia was crazy enough to not even acknowledge Fate as real, even if the Book of Darkness was being controlled by factors outside of her control, even if Jail did not have free will in a sense different from humans, all of that still doesn't provide any kind of justification for the TSAB to absolve or waiver their responsibility. There should be no exceptions. It's not perfect, but I hardly remember anyone claiming that the TSAB was as such.
I'd comment a lot, but this guy already took most of the words out of my mouth. I'll just add that a good hero should never consider a million a statistic (meaning that the few villains you know is not more important than the thousands of civilians you don't).

Oh, and even if Tsuzuki attempts to make the Hucks sympathetic? Remember Old Yeller. *BANG*
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Old 2011-08-07, 16:36   Link #3251
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All I was addressing was Akiyoshi's comment that the Huckebein view people as cattle. At no point did they say anything to that effect. They may dismiss others for being weaker than them, but there certainly hasn't been any talk of Eclipse infectees being the next evolutionary step and that all normal humans are beneith them. You know, something Magneto would say.

If they believed that, I think their pitch to Thoma would be "You've become something greater than human so you should be happy and leave those inferiors behind!" In fact certain bits of dialouge show that they recognise their condition as a disease that needs to be treated.
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Old 2011-08-07, 16:46   Link #3252
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And whenever Raiser says something good about the Hucks I'm pretty much obligated to step in and say something to the opposite effect.
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Old 2011-08-07, 17:08   Link #3253
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I didn't say it was good or it some how made them better
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Old 2011-08-07, 17:51   Link #3254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
All I was addressing was Akiyoshi's comment that the Huckebein view people as cattle. At no point did they say anything to that effect. They may dismiss others for being weaker than them, but there certainly hasn't been any talk of Eclipse infectees being the next evolutionary step and that all normal humans are beneith them. You know, something Magneto would say.

If they believed that, I think their pitch to Thoma would be "You've become something greater than human so you should be happy and leave those inferiors behind!" In fact certain bits of dialouge show that they recognise their condition as a disease that needs to be treated.
The "statistics" comment was because the Hucks consider things that way. To quote: "I'm not talking on someone who can't do arithmetic!"

And "disease that needs to be treated?" More like "a great source of power which is still unstable and could use improvement." None of them seems excited about getting "cured"

And the "cattle" part? Let's see, they kill other people whenever the feel they need to and doesn't feel anything wrong with it nor do they seem to value their victims beyond "those things whose death keeps me alive"...so yes, I don't think "cattle" is off the mark.

One more thing. Fortis didn't try to stop the loli because she was spouting nonsense, it was because she was leaking too much information!
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Old 2011-08-07, 18:28   Link #3255
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I must completely disagree with the cattle part. The Hucks don't put any kind of value, positive /or/ negative, on the lives of people, or least not from their family.

They really don't feel anything at all about it. I mean, yeah, they like victory and hate defeat in context of a fight. But other than that? The value of life doesn't mean anything to them. They just don't care, outside the family.

Magneto in contrast is prepared to decide which nonmutant is too dangerous to live, and which one is allowed to live underneath the boot of mutant kind.

Quote:
Oh, and even if Tsuzuki attempts to make the Hucks sympathetic? Remember Old Yeller. *BANG*
I remember Reinforce.

It's why I didn't rib on Touma when he was going away to kill himself. If he lost all emotional control again, then what's stopping him from granting heart attacks everywhere? At what point does he stop being Touma, and is just someone else entirely from the Book of the Silver Cross, zero problems with survival?

I can't condone suicide. But I can't condone being like the Huckebein either. It's a shitty choice, especially if you want to live, and have a lot to live for. Neither one is gonna be nice.

But thankfully, Touma had the Lily initiative, although I can't say the same for poor Reinforce. Time to leave some passages.

Quote:
"Why wasn't it us, you mean?" Kaidan said quietly.

Tarasov glanced at him, expression stricken.

"I don't know," Kaidan continued, taking care to keep his voice level. "I've asked myself the same question. I think... it was just luck. Shepard's counterattack scared them off before they could round everyone up, and we got lucky. Walker and Inoue weren't."

The private grimaced. "It has to be more than that. What if-"

"Look, it's not a nice thought, I know. Good people aren't supposed to get killed because of chance, are they?"

Tarasov seemed to shake himself, scuffing at the ground with his boot. "Okay, it's dumb, I know."

"Hey, I never said that. It's just that we can't kill ourselves wondering what we could have done differently."
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Old 2011-08-07, 18:30   Link #3256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
And "disease that needs to be treated?" More like "a great source of power which is still unstable and could use improvement." None of them seems excited about getting "cured"
They're not thrilled about the Bureau trying to treat them. Fortis still talks to Thoma like the Eclipse is something that requires a treatment, as anyone would seeing as how the end result isn't very pretty. You also got Arnage saying "And you think you can help him?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
And the "cattle" part? Let's see, they kill other people whenever the feel they need to and doesn't feel anything wrong with it nor do they seem to value their victims beyond "those things whose death keeps me alive"...so yes, I don't think "cattle" is off the mark.
By that definition every military views people as cattle.

Look at how Arnage treats Isis. Sure she's condescending to her, but mostly because of her bust size and general antagonism. Not because she's some lesser animal whose only purpose in life is to be killed to feed the Eclipse. You also got Veyron complaing about needlessly killing, which he wouldn't do if he thought nothing of them. Do you walk around saying "Damn, I needlessly stepped on an ant."
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Old 2011-08-07, 18:50   Link #3257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Look at how Arnage treats Isis. Sure she's condescending to her, but mostly because of her bust size and general antagonism. Not because she's some lesser animal whose only purpose in life is to be killed to feed the Eclipse. You also got Veyron complaing about needlessly killing, which he wouldn't do if he thought nothing of them. Do you walk around saying "Damn, I needlessly stepped on an ant."
maybe Arnage and Isis can be good friends someday. Just like Sayaka and Kyouko from Madoka Magica, because Arnage's appearance reminds me with Kyouko.

And about Veyron, which killing is needless, I'm agree with you
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Old 2011-08-07, 18:58   Link #3258
Justin_Brett
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Those examples represent why the Hucks aren't likeable to me and a lot of people: they're just assholes and bitches to people by default. The only real way it's justified is if all of them were abused by the Bureau at some point. Every single one.
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Old 2011-08-07, 19:06   Link #3259
LostSome
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What is this ?
A moral debat on Nanoha ?
Signum is getting killed by her fans for her failure...
And they are the same saying the Hucks are evil.
I`m liking this board already.

Anyway, I find the Hucks to be very likeable.
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Old 2011-08-07, 19:19   Link #3260
Tiresias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
By that definition every military views people as cattle.
Barring the occasional breaches (which are treated as sick and wrong), militaries are restrained by the rules and customs of war (and if the TSAB doesn't have any, then they are not as humane as the pose) such as the Geneva Convention, which forbids attacking non-opposing civilians - a direct opposite to the Huckebein's demands, which as outlined by the loli were for the TSAB to stay out of their way and let them slaughter the civilians whenever they feel like it.

So no, they are nothing like most military.
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