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Old 2011-09-25, 09:43   Link #4281
Sheba
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Manga fights are rarely any good.
Yuyu Hakusho, Hunter x Hunter, Hokuto no Ken, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Rurouni Kenshin, Blade of the Immortal, Tenjou Tenge, One Piece, Berserk, Gunnm AND this madness all begs to differ.
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Old 2011-09-25, 10:03   Link #4282
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I myself also enjoy it, although the plot makes me dizzy. The story does not matter, only the illustrations makes me suffer headaches.

ViViD slightly better, just the fanservices too explicit, even looking at it makes me want to blow my head. The story is also not a problem, just like Force. It's just less antagonistic.
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Old 2011-09-25, 11:43   Link #4283
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Because it's a canon series in a setting I love with many characters I care about.

Even if it's absolutely horrible I still have to read it.
That's the thing--you don't have to read it, particularly if you don't like it. You let your dislike of it bias your opinion against any good part of it and prevent you from focusing on anything but what you dislike, and that kind of self-poisoning will just spread to other parts of the franchise you don't dislike--I inadvertently made the same mistake in Code Geass, and I still regret doing so.

There's literally no change in any of the returning characters in Force to make them seem OOC or stupid or anything of the like--Nanoha's still married to her job, Vita's still a spitfire, Subaru still has moments of weakness, etc. Yet can you honestly say you can still see that? Because thus far all you've focused on is the hate for the series.
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Old 2011-09-25, 11:43   Link #4284
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Iromaru View Post
I follow many manga and believe me, you can have great fights in manga too.
Quoted for truth.

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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Yuyu Hakusho, Hunter x Hunter, Hokuto no Ken, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Rurouni Kenshin, Blade of the Immortal, Tenjou Tenge, One Piece, Berserk, Gunnm AND this madness all begs to differ.
Needless, Evangelion, Kenichi the Mightiest Disciple, Nar*to(in fact, the anime version is inferior xDU), Shaman King, etc...

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Originally Posted by Iromaru View Post
Because it's a canon series in a setting I love with many characters I care about.

Even if it's absolutely horrible I still want to read it.
Fixed xD

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
There's literally no change in any of the returning characters in Force to make them seem OOC or stupid or anything of the like--Nanoha's still married to her job, Vita's still a spitfire, Subaru still has moments of weakness, etc. Yet can you honestly say you can still see that? Because thus far all you've focused on is the hate for the series.
Those three hardly cover "any of the returning characteres", and i have my doubts over Nanoha(Vita and Subaru are still true to themselves, tough).
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Old 2011-09-25, 11:48   Link #4285
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Those three hardly cover "any of the returning characteres", and i have my doubts over Nanoha(Vita and Subaru are still true to themselves, tough).
Yeah, because I so want to waste my time listing out every single returning character.

And I'm going to regret asking this, I know it, but just why do you have doubts about Nanoha?
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Old 2011-09-25, 11:52   Link #4286
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Manga fights are rarely any good.
So you can't criticize Force about something, because of things that have happened in other mangas?
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Old 2011-09-25, 12:00   Link #4287
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
And I'm going to regret asking this, I know it, but just why do you have doubts about Nanoha?
She feels like a bit flanderized version of herself, while it's true she showed enthusiasm in training new people she was never as uhm... excited about it(she was fawning about the prospect of training the new kids, even Vita felt iuncomfortable with that attitude), also a bit pretentious with her approaching to the battle, her "i have this one guys" scene came to my mind as also her out-of-pace "cheerful smile with open arms" move.

I also suffer from her now clumsier battle style, specially if i know how damn skilled and creative Nanoha has been all these years, but i guess that can be handwaved as being more the fault of the artist depicting the battle than of her own skill.

Nanoha always has been optimistic but not over confident(save for few exceptions), she approached Fate and Reinforce with courage but also with a healthy sense of caution knowing Fate is more experienced and Reinforce is orders of magnitude stronger than her, she approaches her fight with Vivio with a more aggressive attitude but she's also councsious about the high stakes betting on the results of that battle. Her "piece of cake" attitude while approaching Tohma felt a bit fake by comparission, i never tought Nanoha as being the type of warrior that understimates an opponent.
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Old 2011-09-25, 12:03   Link #4288
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as also her out-of-pace "cheerful smile with open arms" move.
She did that in A's too, dude.
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Old 2011-09-25, 12:05   Link #4289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
She did that in A's too, dude.
moments before Vita mangled her name and she started swinging her arms up and down going "It's NANOHA! NA! NO! HA!"
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Old 2011-09-25, 12:08   Link #4290
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
even Vita felt uncomfortable with that attitude),
Vita's always been uncomfortable with Nanoha's attitude, given all the official art of Nanoha petting Vita, and Nanoha cradling her and walking in on her during a childish moment with Hayate in ViVid... that said, Vita's a bit tsundere around Nanoha so that's plenty within character.

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I also suffer from her now clumsier battle style, specially if i know how damn skilled and creative Nanoha has been all these years, but i guess that can be handwaved as being more the fault of the artist depicting the battle than of her own skill.
Clumsier? Clumsier? Where in the hell do you get clumsier?

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Nanoha always has been optimistic but not over confident(save for few exceptions), she approached Fate and Reinforce with courage but also with a healthy sense of caution knowing Fate is more experienced and Reinforce is orders of magnitude stronger than her, she approaches her fight with Vivio with a more aggressive attitude but she's also councsious about the high stakes betting on the results of that battle. Her "piece of cake" attitude while approaching Tohma felt a bit fake by comparission, i never tought Nanoha as being the type of warrior that understimates an opponent.
Not seeing any overconfidence, either. Her remarks to Touma were meant to be reassuring (he's still just a teenager, after all, and teenagers have plenty of insecurities and such) and give him confidence that yes, she can save him. Her attitude during the actual fight is no different from any other battle we've seen her in.
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Old 2011-09-25, 12:20   Link #4291
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
She did that in A's too, dude.
After testing the strenght of her opponent and being more confident in her own ability to hold off Vita. No such background is given for her approching to Tohma right at the beginning of their first battle.
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Old 2011-09-25, 12:24   Link #4292
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...maybe because she thought of him as a friend? You know, the entire reason she was fighting him in the first place?
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Old 2011-09-25, 12:25   Link #4293
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
There's literally no change in any of the returning characters in Force to make them seem OOC or stupid or anything of the like--Nanoha's still married to her job, Vita's still a spitfire, Subaru still has moments of weakness, etc. Yet can you honestly say you can still see that?
I'm doing my best to look for good things in Force, but I honestly see nothing.

And no, all those characters feel fake and act stupid. Especially in combat. AI enemies in FPS games can act smarter than Signum or Nanoha did in their fights.
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Old 2011-09-25, 12:27   Link #4294
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I'm doing my best to look for good things in Force, but I honestly see nothing.

And no, all those characters feel fake and act stupid. Especially in combat. AI enemies in FPS games can act smarter than Signum or Nanoha did in their fights.
Thus proving my point that you've let your bias poison your entire outlook of the manga. You really gain nothing from forcing yourself to keep up on something you hate and you will cause that dislike to spread to other aspects of the franchise; a few people here have already done so and dropped Nanoha almost entirely.
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Old 2011-09-25, 12:35   Link #4295
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... knew I was gonna regret it...
xD

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Vita's always been uncomfortable with Nanoha's attitude, given all the official art of Nanoha petting Vita, and Nanoha cradling her and walking in on her during a childish moment with Hayate in ViVid... that said, Vita's a bit tsundere around Nanoha so that's plenty within character.
Vita's insecurities about Tohma are not played for "Tsundereness" and she's obviously upset about Nanoha fawning over fresh meat while they're in such dire situation and in need to improve themselves. I guess this is similar to Goku's attitude of cheefully fawning over the prospect of fighting strong opponents, even with his friends and loved ones being slaughtered all around him.

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Clumsier? Clumsier? Where in the hell do you get clumsier?
"Shield-Trigger-Shield"

In comparision with other battles she looked a lot less dinamic and versatile during her fight with Tohma. And no, being a manga is not an excuse, we've seen her being amazing in several manga fights as of now(she did an awesome job facing Signum and her fights with Fate in the MOVIE 1st manga just screams EPIC!), thinking good strategies and pulling awesome maneuvers at the drop of a hat. In Force, so far, she was almost completely reliant on the Fortress during the fight, at least Tsuzuki balanced out things by making Nanoha get her butt handed to her i hope this can be used as a plot point to improve Nanoha's fighstyle in future battles(Vayron and Arnage have demonstrated that good fights can be executed in Force).


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Not seeing any overconfidence, either. Her remarks to Touma were meant to be reassuring (he's still just a teenager, after all, and teenagers have plenty of insecurities and such) and give him confidence that yes, she can save him. Her attitude during the actual fight is no different from any other battle we've seen her in.
2/3 of the fight she was firm on her "i still got this" stance, it's only after Tohma starts showing reasillence to anything she's throwing at him that Nanoha started to take the fight more seriously and finally realized how real things got whe he started to easily trash the Fortress.

Hopefully, Nanoha will stop being so "high on herself" while facing Boss-level adversaries. She never acknowledges how hard the situation is until the moment she started to feel the kicks on her rear part. On the past she ackowledge her opponent's level of threat right from the beginning.
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Old 2011-09-25, 13:56   Link #4296
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I'm doing my best to look for good things in Force, but I honestly see nothing.
No. No you're not. The fact that you're saying "all" characters feel fake and stupid speaks volumes in that regard. Sure, in any manga you can find a couple of characters that don't feel quite right. In some more than others. But all? No, the moment you say that you can't possibly claim to be looking for good things in a manga.
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Old 2011-09-25, 14:25   Link #4297
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xD
2/3 of the fight she was firm on her "i still got this" stance, it's only after Tohma starts showing reasillence to anything she's throwing at him that Nanoha started to take the fight more seriously and finally realized how real things got whe he started to easily trash the Fortress.

Hopefully, Nanoha will stop being so "high on herself" while facing Boss-level adversaries. She never acknowledges how hard the situation is until the moment she started to feel the kicks on her rear part. On the past she ackowledge her opponent's level of threat right from the beginning.
Maybe I'm interpreting the scene wrong but I did not see what you saw. What I saw that she approached the battle carefully and also wanted to be reassuring to Tohama that she and the others can help him as he did not look happy at all during that time. I don't think she was "high on herself" or anything and the whole time was taking it very seriously while waiting for the other forwards to come and help which they did in the nick of time (Subaru).
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Old 2011-09-25, 22:31   Link #4298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Yuyu Hakusho, Hunter x Hunter, Hokuto no Ken, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Rurouni Kenshin, Blade of the Immortal, Tenjou Tenge, One Piece, Berserk, Gunnm AND this madness all begs to differ.
That would be your opinion. I find that static black-and-white panels don't do much for me, as far as getting an idea of how combat is flowing. For one thing, it's impossible to tell how fast or slow time is flowing.

And note that I said "rarely." Even if we accept all your examples, they are still a very small fraction of the all the manga out there.

Also note that I haven't read those manga... well, except for Kenshin. And I didn't find Kenshin's fights to be all that interesting in manga form. They worked a bit better in anime form, but Kenshin was always a bit too preachy, and I get pretty tired of phrases repeated over and over like "Surpassing god-like speed." But this isn't a Kenshin thread, heh.

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So you can't criticize Force about something, because of things that have happened in other mangas?
Those would be your words, because I didn't say that. I just accept that black-and-white static panels don't convey a whole a lot for combat.
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Old 2011-09-25, 23:06   Link #4299
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Yuyu Hakusho, Hunter x Hunter, Hokuto no Ken, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Rurouni Kenshin, Blade of the Immortal, Tenjou Tenge, One Piece, Berserk, Gunnm AND this madness all begs to differ.
You forgot Tekken Chinmi. And yeah, just because there are more pathetically drawn fight manga's than the decently drawn ones out there is no excuse for being mediocre.

Heck, even the StrikerS, A's, and Movie supplementary mangas have better drawn fights than Force, so there's even less excuse here.
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Old 2011-09-25, 23:11   Link #4300
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Wait, so is it 'most mangas do not have good fight scenes' or 'I find that the mangas I have read do not have good fight scenes', Kaijo?
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